Thank you Rug bug
[QUOTE=Sansena;8635765]
Thank you Rug bug[/QUOTE]
Sansena, Buck use the rope that way it really should be used at the tail end of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htnswp4v3Z4 Up and down…and with only as much energy as needed.
I did some Parelli with both my horses and they were safe to lead and be around , and could be handled conventionally, as well as other people I’ve boarded with who did Parelli…which is NH with his proprietary equipment and videos.
Something is wrong if these horses are so unmanageable, or at least unmanageable for you. Just stop sitting for these horses, let someone else do it imo.
Sorry, but Parelli is not just NH with his proprietary equipment. He’s taken it quite far from the original purpose…as have a number of others that have become marketing machines. He is teaching tricks, not NH.
Have you studied Parelli or done any of it? I find people that make blanket statements about the methods typically have never actually tried any parelli work, nor watched the basic videos nor read his material.
I am not defending him or his methods…I did it for awhile (basic level of 7 games ) and I read Buck and Clint and other NH and his methods are very similar, just taken to a different level of marketing . I mainly ride dressage and used it because I had two horses that were very green and from unusual backgrounds and it helped quite a bit. I never found it made my horses manageable, nor others who did Parelli around the barn, their horses typically were eaiser to handle than many and could be led or tied conventionally as well as the “parelli way”
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8635790]
I did some Parelli with both my horses and they were safe to lead and be around , and could be handled conventionally, as well as other people I’ve boarded with who did Parelli…which is NH with his proprietary equipment and videos.
Something is wrong if these horses are so unmanageable, or at least unmanageable for you. Just stop sitting for these horses, let someone else do it imo.[/QUOTE]
That is most likely because you had a good horse knowledge foundation before you started.
The problem horses I see are in the hands of the new starry eyed horse owners who have no idea of anything about a horses reaction. Then they latch onto this magical system.
Rugbug has it right.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8635821]
Have you studied Parelli or done any of it? I find people that make blanket statements about the methods typically have never actually tried any parelli work, nor watched the basic videos nor read his material.
I am not defending him or his methods…I did it for awhile (basic level of 7 games ) and I read Buck and Clint and other NH and his methods are very similar, just taken to a different level of marketing . I mainly ride dressage and used it because I had two horses that were very green and from unusual backgrounds and it helped quite a bit. I never found it made my horses manageable, nor others who did Parelli around the barn, their horses typically were eaiser to handle than many and could be led or tied conventionally as well as the “parelli way”[/QUOTE]
I was first introduced to “NH” through PP…and quickly turned away from it. I’ve watched plenty of PP and LP videos. I’ve also watched him in other videos where no one is looking at him…and he’s all about trying to get attention. It’s gross.
Thankfully, I made my way to Tom when investigating why my first horse had such good ground manners even though he was a spooky type…and finding out he was taught by someone who learned from Tom. That eventually led to Ray and Buck which really saved NH for me.
I’ve watched plenty of Ray (need more!!!) and Buck and have taken two clinics with Buck. I know enough of him to trust who he is as a person and trainer. His, what I imagine is censored, opinion on PP backs up my pre-formed opinion.
Bingo… noob owners, bought the Parelli style NH, fell onto a ‘trainer’ who speaks of the horse ‘allowing’ you into his stall before you enter and poof… You have horses like this bunch.
They’re good horses, mostly. The folks are kind and have good intentions, they just fell into a crowd that has some pretty anthropomorphic theories on horse handling. Not my place to judge, just sharing.
I do really appreciate everone;s opinions. Thanks again.
There’s a disconnect somewhere and perhaps local trainers using the Parelli name but teaching something else. PP methods are very practical and about establishing boundaries and respect, and not about horses allowing you into their stall or anthropomorphic goo.
I’m with Alibi on the declining front. I’m at a pepperoni facility and I feed several times a week. Most of the horses are safe on the ground to handle without a bunch of madness. However, there are a couple that I simply refuse to handle. They’re not worth me getting injured. Unless they’re in mortal danger, I’m not getting closer to them than a carrot stick length. I’m blessed that our pastures back up to the stalls, so its easy to herd them in- if they didn’t, I don’t suspect I would have lasted.
[QUOTE=Sansena;8635523]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA
This is EXACTLY what I’m up against. Except they bounce around like ping-pong balls the moment you turn your back, so you glance back to see wha da fruit bat is going on? and… pfft. They stop dead. So you wiggle the end of the fekkin’ eleven foot rope at them, and the scoot randomly.
And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.[/QUOTE]
:eek::no:
Be careful, OP! I understand what he’s saying, any of our horses will follow me that way, and sometimes I get sloppy and do lead like that, but it’s not safe! All I see is an opportunity for the horse to spook forward to the end of the line and be lined up perfectly to let out a kick or buck right at him.
Hopefully some of the advice here will work. Otherwise you may just need to cut them as clients.
[QUOTE=Sansena;8634634]
In my travels I have encountered horses who have been “Natural Horsemanshipped” to the point where ‘common’ horsemanship just.doesn’t.work with them.
Case in point, the horses who fly backward when you face them, refuse to walk next to you or even in your field of vision when being lead, and… those that for some reason, have been chased away upon release of turn out–meaning they tear away before you have a chance to get the halters off.
Suffice to say, I’m desperately trying to avoid shoulder injuries here. I seem to encounter one every time I deal with these types.
Someone needs to write crib notes for handling these types. Save me from having to pore through pages of Parelli preachings. Can someone synopsize for me how to handle these critters, keep myself safe, and not upset the horses too?
I farm sit. So retraining the animals is out of the question. If I wish to succeed, I need to adapt my way of handling them to how THEY are used to being handled. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
I think you are dealing with generally poorly trained horses, and since you have having such a hard time handling them, you’ve decided to blame Natural Horsemanship. NH is common sense. The behavior issues you list have nothing to do with NH and everything to do with poor handling.
I’m also wondering if these horses just sense that you’re new and are taking advantage of you.
I agree.
Here is an example of a farm that uses Natural Horsemanship techniques for training: http://www.millarbrookefarm.com/en/join-the-team/
"Ian Millar’s Career Highlights
Competed in more Olympic Games than any Canadian in history, in any sport.
The 2012 Olympics in London marked his 10th Games and a new World Record.
Won his first Olympic Medal at age 61—the Silver in Team Jumping.
The first rider to win back-to-back World Cup Finals (1988 and 1989)
Earned nine medals (including two individual Golds) in nine Pan American Games, more than any other show jumper.
Ten-time Canadian National Champion.
Two-time winner of the $1 Million CN International at Spruce Meadows"
I
[QUOTE=Sansena;8635523]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA
This is EXACTLY what I’m up against. Except they bounce around like ping-pong balls the moment you turn your back, so you glance back to see wha da fruit bat is going on? and… pfft. They stop dead. So you wiggle the end of the fekkin’ eleven foot rope at them, and the scoot randomly.
And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.[/QUOTE]
This is an easy fix. Just do exactly the opposite of what he says in the video- snub your hand up on the lead rope just below the chin, and lead with the horse at your shoulder like a normally-trained horse.
This has been my go-to method for relating to PP horses for a long time. Start right off speaking a different language and pretty much any horse will gladly abandon the spooking and ping ponging in favor of a normal leading technique. In fact I have never had one give me any trouble after the first few moments of confusion.
It’s not retraining, it’s just not leading with 6’ of rope between you and the horse. Changes the whole conversation.
I fail to see how any horse trained in NH can not also be led conventionally. NH /PP says lead with a long rope . So shorten your hold on the rope to a normal length, what is the big deal, the horse won’t mind. If you don’t like a horse running backward if you wiggle a lead line at him, then, don’t wiggle a lead line at him. Point your finger at his chest or gently touch his chest and he’ll back up just like any horse will. ( I am agreeing with above post)
If the staff does not speak English (what do they speak?) and owners are not around to communicate with, how is it known these horses were trained in Parelli methods? Is anyone actually doing that on this farm, or is it an assumption the OP is making?
Are these horses recent imports from the BLM programs, or herd horses that basically live outdoors with little handling?
As discussed, regular/riding horses can easily transition from NH style of leading to conventional in like, a minute.
However, NH trainers including Parelli will take on special project horses, mustangs from BLM, problem horses, feral or little handing. THOSE horses might have a problem trying to lead around on a short lead or back them up lol. THOSE horses are the ones most conventional trainers won’t take on, leaving them to the NH trainers.
I assume the horses the OP speaks of are “regular” horses? If not , how does the OP know anything about them with a staff that does not speak English and she does not speak their language and absent owners?
[QUOTE=Sansena;8635523]
And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.[/QUOTE]
Well one of the basics of the parelli/NH programs is that the horse gives to pressure. So if the horse is pulling on the lead it’s just not trained at all.
If you want a break down, “game 1” is for the horse to be tolerant/desensitized of stuff like people touching them, halters, ropes, saddles (basic training in pretty much every program). “Game 2” is to give to pressure. Pressure on the rope, pressure on their side to move over, etc. Pretty much basic training in every horse training program. Not magic. Not bad training. Get those first 2 under control and everything else pretty much falls in line.
A horse that is flying back from you is not trained on game #1 and a horse ripping away the line is not trained on game #2. So what are they trained on? Not parelli from the sounds of it.
I use a little bit of everything in my training. The training principle of pressure/release is pretty sciency so I am a big fan of that. I’ve seen people trying to use parelli methods and they can’t get the “release” part right, so that really messes everything up.
Why doesn’t OP try leading and handling those horses in a normal fashion for one week and update us?
Countrywood, I appreciate your zeal for my thread. But as I said before, I’m there for short periods of time… this past gig was for 2 1/2 days. So, not enough time to instill much of a change in behavior.
Someone asked how I know it’s PP training given the owners don’t handle the horses and staff speaks another language: I deducted it from the 101 books, videos, CDs and DVD in the house and barn.
Someone else mentioned simply changing it up so radically for them, that they accept this new, refreshing way of handling and submit. After being jerked around once or twice by the most problematic critter, I did just that. Shortened the lead to the customary length, then just hung my middle finger over the bottom of his halter, away from any hardware and not gripping tight. Horse was very much improved though did protest occasionally still.
You’ve all given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it. Thanks. I’ve worked with horses 30+ years, mostly in the H/J industry. These guys --much as I hate saying it-- are like they’re from the land of misfit toys. Any more elaboration might reveal too much, but I do know their background. No newly broke, wild mustang types here.
My shoulder is getting better with rest. My horse won’t be curried much for now. Should take a few weeks to be 100% again. Just in time for the May job 
If I still am doing it.
It is far more difficult to handle horses we are not familiar with it’s easy for us to forget that
Re above post hooking finger through halter when leading I never do that good way to get a finger broken. If it’s me or the horse i’ll let the horse go…best of luck with the misfits!
