Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[RugBug]

@Countrywood;8636848

It is far more difficult to handle horses we are not familiar with it’s easy for us to forget that

I can’t say in my 30+years I’ve had difficulties handling a horse because it’s unfamiliar. The difficulties usually stem from poorly trained, spoiled horses or one that is on stall rest for a re-hab.

Leading a horse is not rocket science. It’s one of the first things most horses are taught. If done with even the slightest bit of quality, the horse should give to pressure and lead. Respecting personal space is a little harder to teach…and it sounds like these two horses did not get that lesson.

Op: One thing to remember - you get a lot of novices turning to PP (or even NH) because they are in over their head and/or are scared. So despite having a lot of training materials, they still may be utterly clueless in how to apply it and have created a PP monster.

[Sansena]

“Op: One thing to remember - you get a lot of novices turning to PP (or even NH) because they are in over their head and/or are scared. So despite having a lot of training materials, they still may be utterly clueless in how to apply it and have created a PP monster.”

Oh, I’ve got that one down and that’s exactly what I’m up against here, which is why I started the thread.

I just wanted to be able to keep this customer, stay safe, and be fair to the horses. If it was ‘allowed’ I’d have a chain on these guys when leading. But the owners would see that as abuse, so I was hoping to find other alternatives.

My gut tells me this gig isn’t going to last long, which is upsetting because it’s in a new region for me and I was hoping to spread out through networking. I can’t rightly tell these folks, “Hey, your horses are rank. You won’t let me use the equipment I need to stay safe, so you need to find someone else.” I think this is just going to come down to me fading into the sunset, which is unfortunate for all involved.

Thanks again guys.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8635523]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

This is EXACTLY what I’m up against. Except they bounce around like ping-pong balls the moment you turn your back, so you glance back to see wha da fruit bat is going on? and… pfft. They stop dead. So you wiggle the end of the fekkin’ eleven foot rope at them, and the scoot randomly.

And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.[/QUOTE]

That is one of the worst examples of horsemanship I think I may have ever seen. What a nutjob.

FWIW, many animals are smart enough to recognize different behaviour expectations for different people and different equipment. If I felt I HAD to take the job you’re talking about, I’d bring my own halters and my own leads. From the first moment I interacted, my equipment would go on and my way of handling would be employed. Betchya by the 2nd or 3rd day the horses would be breathing a sigh of relief because they’d know what was expected (walk quietly and respectfully) and not be worried every 2 seconds that some stupid idiot with a damn rope was going to wiggle it and expect them to behave like circus animals.

NH and Parelli is more about circus tricks than interaction no matter what that bozo says.

I think about the way I handle my own horse in the barn aisle. She comes out of her stall, turns, and backs up, even goes sideways all on finger signals. It’s circus, it’s fun, it’s entertaining, it even engages her brain a little. Would I ever expect anyone else to handle my horse that way? Nope. Would I ever give up regular handling and go completely circussy? Nope. It’s not safe in all situations, and I believe it’s more stressful to keep a horse on that high alert all the time. Turn it on, turn it off. Use it as a game and a fun thing, not a method of handling. When handling, interact in a meaningful and safe manner. And when I say safe, not at the end of an 11’ rope, or a horse that’s 3 paces behind your right heel - right where you’ll get run over really well if that horse gets sick of your NH BS or gets severely spooked from behind.

[sascha]

Well, damn, posted at the same time you posted. Sorry that they’re such morons

I’d probably tell them their horses are somewhat unruly and I needed to handle them in a safer manner, but then I’m old and crotchety.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8636956]
“Op: One thing to remember - you get a lot of novices turning to PP (or even NH) because they are in over their head and/or are scared. So despite having a lot of training materials, they still may be utterly clueless in how to apply it and have created a PP monster.”

Oh, I’ve got that one down and that’s exactly what I’m up against here, which is why I started the thread.

I just wanted to be able to keep this customer, stay safe, and be fair to the horses. If it was ‘allowed’ I’d have a chain on these guys when leading. But the owners would see that as abuse, so I was hoping to find other alternatives.

My gut tells me this gig isn’t going to last long, which is upsetting because it’s in a new region for me and I was hoping to spread out through networking. I can’t rightly tell these folks, “Hey, your horses are rank. You won’t let me use the equipment I need to stay safe, so you need to find someone else.” I think this is just going to come down to me fading into the sunset, which is unfortunate for all involved.

Thanks again guys.[/QUOTE]

Just curious as to how you figure a chain would help you keep a horse from lagging behind when leading, or from bolting once released?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’ve seen that clip with PP before, and I can’t stand the way he talks about horses. “Cowards, claustrophobes, and panicaholics.” Oh yeah, old man? Well, you’re another one.

He breeds disrespect for the horse right into his first lessons by talking like that. And shows his own lack of knowledge and understanding.

I happen to agree with him that horses need to be far enough behind you not to run you over when something startles them. That’s how I lead mine. But I sure don’t have a big brass turnbuckle under their chins to sucker-punch them with where they can’t see it coming. And I’d only get that loud with the lead rope if I had a horse about to run me over.

And for god’s sake he just looks like a first-class yahoo letting that horse graze away on the end of the lead.

OK, whew. I feel better now.

Sorry OP. In your place I would probably have a talk with the owners and see if I could find them some help. I’m sure they don’t like having unruly horses. If not then I think I’d tell them I can’t afford to be laid up, since I’m self-employed, and while it’s been nice I just can’t risk being out of work due to a shoulder injury. The only clients that will lose you are clients with unruly horses and you really don’t want them, right?

[Sansena]

[QUOTE=PlanB;8637010]
Just curious as to how you figure a chain would help you keep a horse from lagging behind when leading, or from bolting once released?[/QUOTE]

I’m going to make pretend this is a valid question, and not just trying to pick a fight. Obviously it won’t stop the bolting after release. Or lagging behind. But it will stop them from trying to blow past me and ripping my shoulder out of its socket on th way to the paddock. I can unbuckle halter a while feeding a carrot and use a stick to keep them with/away from me as already covered in this thread.

Look, I know I’ve spoken some slightly disparaging words about some of your hero. Let’s call it a difference of opinion at this point and try to avoid any more condescension, okeedokee?

This thread has pretty much run its’ course already and was bound to decline given the words “Natural horsemanship” and Parelli.

Once again thank you for the positive comments here. Peace, out.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8637087]
I’m going to make pretend this is a valid question, and not just trying to pick a fight. Obviously it won’t stop the bolting after release. Or lagging behind. But it will stop them from trying to blow past me and ripping my shoulder out of its socket on th way to the paddock. I can unbuckle halter a while feeding a carrot and use a stick to keep them with/away from me as already covered in this thread.

Look, I know I’ve spoken some slightly disparaging words about some of your hero. Let’s call it a difference of opinion at this point and try to avoid any more condescension, okeedokee?

This thread has pretty much run its’ course already and was bound to decline given the words “Natural horsemanship” and Parelli.

Once again thank you for the positive comments here. Peace, out.[/QUOTE]

To be very clear, he’s not my hero. I’m a bit of a weirdo because I use both “NH methods” and also chains, spurs and draw reins as the need arises.

I would agree, a horse that’s blowing past you and dragging you to the paddock would probably benefit from some leading lessons with a chain. I thought your complaint was that they were lagging behind, not barging ahead. That’s why I asked why a chain would fix it.

It just doesn’t seem fair to me that you’re blaming the issues you’re facing on horses that have been “parrelli trained”, when it sounds quite clear these horses haven’t had much training of ANY kind.

I do think there is some good in learning some of the NH techniques, as I grew up at a farm (a show barn, very well-run) where training was sometimes pretty heavy-handed.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=PlanB;8637184]

It just doesn’t seem fair to me that you’re blaming the issues you’re facing on horses that have been “parrelli trained”, when it sounds quite clear these horses haven’t had much training of ANY kind.

I do think there is some good in learning some of the NH techniques, as I grew up at a farm (a show barn, very well-run) where training was sometimes pretty heavy-handed.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s fair to say that Parelli’d horses are sometimes VERY, VERY different than NH’d horses. I use NH on mine and they would not perform a single game, nor would I ask them too. I’ve also never roped a foot…but can see the benefit of doing that. Too bad I’m a hack with a rope.

True NH is learning how horses communicate and then working within those parameters to create a partner. It is NOT about playing games and stopping there.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8637282]
I think it’s fair to say that Parelli’d horses are sometimes VERY, VERY different than NH’d horses. I use NH on mine and they would not perform a single game, nor would I ask them too. I’ve also never roped a foot…but can see the benefit of doing that. Too bad I’m a hack with a rope.

True NH is learning how horses communicate and then working within those parameters to create a partner. It is NOT about playing games and stopping there.[/QUOTE]

I think the term “game” is just a part of the wordsy marketing gimmick. Everyone else uses “training session” or “exercise” or “lesson”?

I learned a little bit about parelli when we had a few clinics locally that I went to watch. I added a few of the methods to my “toolbox” but found that most of the explanations were crappy.

But I would be interested in hearing where the major differences are in parelli vs other NH. I think a lot of the techniques work, just a lot of the clinicians have kind of dumb explanations as to “why”.

I’m a big fan of Andrew McLean myself (Note: Andrew McLean not Guy McLean, although I think Guy McLean is a fun entertainer to watch!)… I would consider his techniques “science-based”, here is a link to an article of his training principles http://www.aebc.com.au/Articles

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8637343]
I think the term “game” is just a part of the wordsy marketing gimmick. Everyone else uses “training session” or “exercise” or “lesson”?

I learned a little bit about parelli when we had a few clinics locally that I went to watch. I added a few of the methods to my “toolbox” but found that most of the explanations were crappy.

But I would be interested in hearing where the major differences are in parelli vs other NH. I think a lot of the techniques work, just a lot of the clinicians have kind of dumb explanations as to “why”.

I’m a big fan of Andrew McLean myself (Note: Andrew McLean not Guy McLean, although I think Guy McLean is a fun entertainer to watch!)… I would consider his techniques “science-based”, here is a link to an article of his training principles http://www.aebc.com.au/Articles[/QUOTE]

I think Parelli uses games as an end, not a means. NH uses principles as a means to a better relationship with your horse. It’s not about what tricks you can make them do…it’s about getting them working on a feel so they can do just that…work.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8637520]
I think Parelli uses games as an end, not a means. NH uses principles as a means to a better relationship with your horse. It’s not about what tricks you can make them do…it’s about getting them working on a feel so they can do just that…work.[/QUOTE]

My impression with Parelli was not that the games are an end, but rather, you need to be able to do all the games 100% standing on your head before you can progress to riding. That’s probably just as well because I didn’t see anything that made sense, when it came to actual riding, in the parelli program.

[roseymare]

My main problem with him is that so many of his followers are timid with horses and then latch on to his methods which do not work for the timid.

[aliceo]

there are lots of people using parelli methods incorrectly. the fact that these horses are unruly is an indictment of their handlers, not the clinician they follow.

i’m no apologist for parelli, but i did study his methods when i first got started with horses and i got a lot out of it. all the so-called “natural horsemen” are basically following the same principles. they just express them differently.

leading a horse from up tight under their chin doesn’t make you safer. it puts a brace in you and in the horse, and they can take charge. whereas a loose lead takes away the horse’s power. if they crowd up behind you, then start swinging your half of the rope side to side around your body to make them stay out of your space.

[Haybert]

I had to board at a parelli type barn. Never saw horses flying backwards or lagging behind.

Use common sense.

I think you post, op, is looking for an anti parelli tirade or anti nh, but I’ve seen nutjob training that is “normal” handling.

Unfortunately, people who are ignorant about nh tend to hang their hat on pat pepperoni as the be all, end all and yet aren’t the least interested in Ray Hunt or others.

Retraining is retraining. Poor training is poor training. Worse, using a nose chain to solve it shows a dearth of tools in the tool kit.

I imagine fear got the horse trained this way. Trust me, pain and fear won’t undo it. It has more to do with horseman’s tact and timing.

[Beck]

I think the OP was looking for a “CliffsNotes” on the ‘language’ to use to get the proper responses out of the training these horses have had. A few ‘key/common phrases’ for a tourist so she can get what she wants.

[RxCate]

[QUOTE=Beck;8639611]
I think the OP was looking for a “CliffsNotes” on the ‘language’ to use to get the proper responses out of the training these horses have had. A few ‘key/common phrases’ for a tourist so she can get what she wants.[/QUOTE]

BINGO - amazing the immediate bashing that begins when someone clearly only asked for quick tips to handle these horses safely, and to help her understand their ‘language’ enough to turn them in/out/feed.

Relax people. Take a deep breath.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8636938]
[B]I can’t say in my 30+years I’ve had difficulties handling a horse because it’s unfamiliar. The difficulties usually stem from poorly trained, spoiled horses or one that is on stall rest for a re-hab.

[/B]Leading a horse is not rocket science. It’s one of the first things most horses are taught. If done with even the slightest bit of quality, the horse should give to pressure and lead. Respecting personal space is a little harder to teach…and it sounds like these two horses did not get that lesson.

Op: One thing to remember - you get a lot of novices turning to PP (or even NH) because they are in over their head and/or are scared. So despite having a lot of training materials, they still may be utterly clueless in how to apply it and have created a PP monster.[/QUOTE]

Bolded, totally agree. I’m not a fan of PP, however, a lot of NH style is plain old common sense horse handling, just phrased in a different style or put into more lay language for novices.

OP- I’d handle them like any other horse I handle. They sound ill behaved, whether it is from PP or incompetent owners or a cold, windy day- who knows. Horses are herd animals in a hierarchy, you are the lead mare (or gelding, stallion whatever).

Also agree w/ the posters who say the OP is looking for a few tricks to get her through, if it is possible. I’ve refused other clients with unruly animals because I am not getting paid to retrain them and I can’t get hurt from a butthead. Just a thought.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8639494]
there are lots of people using parelli methods incorrectly. the fact that these horses are unruly is an indictment of their handlers, not the clinician they follow.

i’m no apologist for parelli, but i did study his methods when i first got started with horses and i got a lot out of it. all the so-called “natural horsemen” are basically following the same principles. they just express them differently.

leading a horse from up tight under their chin doesn’t make you safer. it puts a brace in you and in the horse, and they can take charge. whereas a loose lead takes away the horse’s power. if they crowd up behind you, then start swinging your half of the rope side to side around your body to make them stay out of your space.[/QUOTE]

That goes against physics. Leading a horse on the end of a lead is absolutely more dangerous especially for the horse. They have the leverage to get away from the handler more quickly. Have you ever lunged a horse with no give without a round pen?

[Wirt]

This thread is asking the wrong question.
It should be,
“How do you stay safe around a Parelli person?”