Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8639797]
That goes against physics. Leading a horse on the end of a lead is absolutely more dangerous especially for the horse. They have the leverage to get away from the handler more quickly. Have you ever lunged a horse with no give without a round pen?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think either way is inherently more dangerous, but I do lead my butthead horse close to me, because i need to have immediate contact with his face if I see his brain fly away. The extra second or two it takes to remove the slack from a longer lead will ensure you’ve lost your opportunity to get him back on track.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8639494]

leading a horse from up tight under their chin doesn’t make you safer. it puts a brace in you and in the horse, and they can take charge. whereas a loose lead takes away the horse’s power. if they crowd up behind you, then start swinging your half of the rope side to side around your body to make them stay out of your space.[/QUOTE]

I would like to see any truly knowledgeable horseman who condones leading a horse from up tight under the chin. I’m thinking they’d be rare as hen’s teeth. It’s the lagging behind on a far too long rope that makes the Parelli nonsense dangerous. That horse spooks and bolts forward, you don’t have a chance because you’re not even able to read the dang horse’s body language in time to take action because it is BEHIND you out of your field of vision.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8639802]
This thread is asking the wrong question.
It should be,
“How do you stay saNe around a Parelli person?”[/QUOTE]

Here, I fixed it for you.

:lol:

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8639802]
This thread is asking the wrong question.
It should be,
“How do you stay safe around a Parelli person?”[/QUOTE]

Get them as far away from you as possible as soon as possible. Shake your chain shank and leather halter at them if necessary.

[AMWookey]

I don’t do the NH or parelli stuff. My friend does though, and I consider her a fairly accomplished horsewoman. She just happens to like doing the parelli stuff as well.

As for handling, her horses are pretty good, and I handle them all just like I would any. I find they are quicker to respond to my body language then many other horses I have worked with.

I had a mare though growing up, that no one could handle. We tried everything. We eventually sent her for ground training with a ‘natural horsemanship’ guy for a month. He taught me afterwards that I had to always be aware of my body language around her, and always be the confident one. The tips and tricks her taught me, with a well schooled and respectful mare that she became, was that if I turned to her, she is going to take a step back. If I put a shoulder towards her, she would move off it. If I raised my hand, her head came down. This was 15 years ago so my memory in a little shaky. That mare passed away last year, but 90% of the time she was so gentle my husband learned everything he knows about horses and handling them from her. (Which means he doesn’t handle my gelding assertively enough!). It was all about body language though, and she respected that, as does my friends horses.

Is there anyone around that you could speak to for a crash course in person? Someone that you can respect, who is an actual horseperson that employs some of these techniques? Maybe because I am only exposed to it now through my friend, and while I don’t agree with some aspects of it, I see mainly the non crazies. My husbands cousin even has a farm that specializes in teaching children a form of natural horsemanship. They take ground work, horsemanship and stable management lessons prior to riding lessons. I can completely respect what she is doing, even if it isn’t right for my horse.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=sascha;8639849]
I would like to see any truly knowledgeable horseman who condones leading a horse from up tight under the chin. I’m thinking they’d be rare as hen’s teeth. It’s the lagging behind on a far too long rope that makes the Parelli nonsense dangerous. That horse spooks and bolts forward, you don’t have a chance because you’re not even able to read the dang horse’s body language in time to take action because it is BEHIND you out of your field of vision.[/QUOTE]

I used to think this too. But you’re in more danger of being run over by a spooked horse if you’re at the horse’s side. Why’s that? Because he’s going to spook away from what scares him. And he’s going to see that thing out of the eye you’re not blocking.

Horses don’t like to run people over. If you give them the chance, most of them will avoid you anyway. But you can increase your chances by teaching them - consistently - that they’re not allowed in your space. Then give them enough space so they can stay out of yours.

[sascha]

Of course, it’s much, much safer to have them spook out of your field of vision so that you can get run over before you see it coming rather than see it coming and give a reminder that they are not to get in your space no matter how scary the object of spookiness seems to be. Silly me.

Reads an awful lot like you’ve drunk the Koolaid and flushed the common sense. lol

[quietann]

I think the "lead with horse behind/“lead at the head”/“lead at the shoulder” argument doesn’t have one right answer. I for one am uncomfortable leading a horse behind me, especially since the first thing my particular horse would do, if badly spooked, is rear.

[roseymare]

This is the disconnect. I am referring to the horses safety. A runaway horse is unsafe to itself. Sure on a long lead if he spooks he will not for the most part run over the handler. But then after this occurs repeatedly he learns he can get away. This explains the bevior of horses in the OP thread. They are accustomed to being able to get away. Now this is obviously not the plan Mr Parelli has but many of his followers have very little ability to do what he does no matter how many videos they watch.

I am pretty convinced that Temple Grandin has it right. Some people just can read anmals. iSome people can never learn to read animals. And often those than can taught they revert back to bad body language. I see it in companion animals all of the time.

[Beck]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;8639935]
Horses don’t like to run people over. If you give them the chance, most of them will avoid you anyway. [/QUOTE]

Not at all true, unfortunately. As you go on to say: they do need to be taught to respect your space.

If you have the horse up beside you at arm’s length, you have a chance of dealing with any spook. If the horse is behind you, out of sight on a long lead, you have a good chance of being landed upon or knocked down. And by the time you have the lead gathered up the horse has the advantage of its weight in motion at the end of the rope. Physics.

[skyon]

[QUOTE=Beck;8640229]
Not at all true, unfortunately. As you go on to say: they do need to be taught to respect your space.

If you have the horse up beside you at arm’s length, you have a chance of dealing with any spook. If the horse is behind you, out of sight on a long lead, you have a good chance of being landed upon or knocked down. And by the time you have the lead gathered up the horse has the advantage of its weight in motion at the end of the rope. Physics.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=quietann;8640009]
I think the "lead with horse behind/“lead at the head”/“lead at the shoulder” argument doesn’t have one right answer. I for one am uncomfortable leading a horse behind me, especially since the first thing my particular horse would do, if badly spooked, is rear.[/QUOTE]

Because it’s always best to not be able to see the horse as it goes up and then be able to get away from it, right? I know I always prefer a couple of surprise front hooves planted on top of my head with force. I guess you’re the same!

[roseymare]

I do get the don’t look back at a horse when you are leading it from in front. Most horses will stop when you turn to them. But I just don’t see how this is such a safe way to lead one. Although as I have said before my horses will lead this way without any issues and I have done it but I still do not find it safe and don’t lead this way in a strange or scary environment. And that includes at home when the wind is blowing or a storm is coming.

[skyon]

Also the most dangerous part of a kick is the final part of the arc, when all the power is being used- versus a kick that is close, just starting, where you might still have a chance to absorb it or correct it.

This method seems to want to always be able to lunge the horse around you however that distance is also just enough to put someone in a strike zone that could really hurt them if the horse kicks out.

Anyone can use a lead like this if needed. The problem is when everyone begins to think this is the main way to lead a horse because PP said so. It gets cultish and dangerous.

[RugBug]

@skyon;8640663

Also the most dangerous part of a kick is the final part of the arc, when all the power is being used- versus a kick that is close, just starting, where you might still have a chance to absorb it or correct it.

This method seems to want to always be able to lunge the horse around you however that distance is also just enough to put someone in a strike zone that could really hurt them if the horse kicks out.

A little anecdotal truth for y’all: The only time I’ve ever been kicked (knocking on wood) was with my horse in a rope halter as I was trying to yield her haunches for being naughty. I did it wrong, she reached out and got me. Thankfully I was close enough that it didn’t hurt…much.

but note, I did it WRONG. There is a way to move the horse around you safely, but it’s easier to screw up if you aren’t paying complete attention…as in my situation. You HAVE to watch where the head is and it HAS to be bent around towards you when you ask the haunches to yield.

[MustangPianist]

There are a couple of thoughts that always simplify things for me.

The first is from Buck through Ray,“Treat the horse how you’d like him to be, not how he is.”

The other is from one of my teachers, who always said that horses are rational, logical, reasonable fellows, and if you just ask them what you need to ask them in a way that is comfortable for you, they will figure you out soon enough without any stress and consternation. I have always gotten along with strange horses (my career is in equine nursing at a university veterinary teaching hospital) keeping these ideas at the top of my mind.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=MustangPianist;8640754]
The other is from one of my teachers, who always said that horses are rational, logical, <snip.reasonable<snip> fellows, [/QUOTE]

Hahaha. I don’t completely agree with this (although I do with reasonable…usually). Watching my friend’s horse get rescued after backing off the side of a cliff because she was scared of pampas grass is one reason why.

I do think they look to get the pressure release, which is why they can learn from a lot of different systems and still do okay…but do better when someone understands what signals they are giving, etc.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8639797]
That goes against physics. Leading a horse on the end of a lead is absolutely more dangerous especially for the horse. They have the leverage to get away from the handler more quickly. Have you ever lunged a horse with no give without a round pen?[/QUOTE]

I agree. My father in law never learned even though he had his leg broken twice while leading 2 different thoroughbreds on too long a lead rope.

If the horse is behind you it is out of your view. If it takes off, misbehaves, trips, shies or anything that can happen, one out of 2 thousand times of leading, it has happened without you seeing it. It can run you over. It can turn and kick at you. It can rear and knock you. It can do a myriad of things.

Leading at the shoulder means that when the worst happens the horse can shove you sideways with its shoulder and knock you out of the way of danger. Just because you are leading the horse at the shoulder with a short rein, does not mean you are holding it tight under the chin. You can lead with a short loose rein.

Leading at the shoulder you are in a stable position to being the horse to a halt - hopefully before the worst happens.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8640820]
I agree. My father in law never learned even though he had his leg broken twice while leading 2 different thoroughbreds on too long a lead rope.

If the horse is behind you it is out of your view. If it takes off, misbehaves, trips, shies or anything that can happen, one out of 2 thousand times of leading, it has happened without you seeing it. It can run you over. It can turn and kick at you. It can rear and knock you. It can do a myriad of things.

Leading at the shoulder means that when the worst happens the horse can shove you sideways with its shoulder and knock you out of the way of danger. Just because you are leading the horse at the shoulder with a short rein, does not mean you are holding it tight under the chin. You can lead with a short loose rein.

Leading at the shoulder you are in a stable position to being the horse to a halt - hopefully before the worst happens.[/QUOTE]

I lead with the horse’s head at my shoulder…but the lead rope is quite slack. At least enough room that my hand can be down by my side and there is no tension in the rope. I expect my horses to stay that way no matter how fast or slow I’m walking. It is their responsibility to keep up and to keep slack in the rope. I will not drag them around. Leading for me is less about the rope and more about where I am going and how fast I’m going there. If you train them, they will come. I also make them lead from both sides so I have the option…and expectations remain the same. I’m not saying they are good enough that I can remove the lead rope and they will follow me around, but I don’t need a “short rope” to keep them where I want them.

[cloudy18]

My instructor had me lead with horse’s throatlatch at my shoulder. My mare will also lead while farther behind me, but she’s a little goofy at times and I wouldn’t know what she is doing back there. She gets led that way if we are going somewhere where we both can’t get through at the same time, like yesterday when we were trying to find a way around a washed out trail.

There is a Smokie Brannaman video on his FB page where he works a horse named Purdy. Actually, there’s a series of him with her. He swears she is a Parelli horse because of how she reacts, and he spends quite a bit of time just getting her to walk around him in a circle. She acts like she is used to being chased. Whether you blame it on Parelli tactics or just crappy horsemanship, its obvious the mare is not relaxed with basic handling.