Steeplechase stallions in the US?

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

Again, this is mostly hypothetical since I am not in a solid enough financial position to breed my horse at the moment. I’m also not sure if this belongs in this forum or Racing, but I decided to ask here!

I am interested in Thoroughbred stallions known for siring steeplechasers. I know that jump racing is far less prevalent in the States than in Europe, but I personally am a fan. Chasers seem to be more durable than flat racers (the oldest winner of the Grand National was 15, and Lonesome Glory won the Eclipse Award for Champion Steeplechaser five times between 1992 and 1999). And if the whole running thing doesn’t work out, I’d still potentially have a nice sporthorse (the aforementioned Lonesome Glory was a foxhunter after his retirement).

Is anyone familiar with steeplechase lines in the States?

[Highflyer]

Dance With Ravens would be my first choice. That said, I think breeding for jump racing is even less financially viable than breeding for flat racing.

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8285785]
Dance With Ravens would be my first choice. That said, I think breeding for jump racing is even less financially viable than breeding for flat racing.[/QUOTE]

Iiiiif this happens, I’m planning on one (1) offspring of the Princess, to be a personal horse. If he/she races, cool, I’ll have fun with it and if there’s no money to be had, oh well. If baby in question says NOPE to the running thing (or when he/she is done with the running thing), I want a horse that should be able to do something else.

Also wow, Dance With Ravens is a very attractive horse I like him.

[vineyridge]

This is going to be a book.

In Ireland and the UK, there are no chasing sirelines per se. Jumps racers are gelded before they race in about 99% of the cases. Breeders in those countries generally use MARE lines to produce jumps racers; the sires are usually speedy flat racers.

The French do things a bit differently, since they do keep some jumps racer sire lines alive for a generation or two. And French jumps racing is and has been as much about AQPS (not quite pure TB) as about pure TB. The Brits and Irish also race non-pure TBs, but not to the extent that the French do.

If you are looking to breed a jumps racer, Dances with Ravens is one of the last stallions that I would select. In the UK/Ireland, Sadler’s Wells line dominates. Roberto line is also used, but nowhere near the quantity of Sadler’s Wells. For soundness and stamina, you can hardly go wrong with the Roberto line, and Sadler’s Wells is so well proven as to be almost a given. But who you choose will be determined by the mare’s pedigree. Honestly, I would avoid lines that are almost universally American dirt track racers.

The US doesn’t specifically breed jumps racers, so since the death of Northern Baby and Dynaformer and Carnivalay, you aren’t likely to find a particular stallion who is desired for his jumps racing siring ability,

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

I have also looked at Wrote: http://www.northweststud.com/horses/wrote-9754.html.

He nicks an A+ with my mare and is by High Chaparral. Wrote did not race over fences but he is Irish bred and a grandson of Sadler’s Wells. I like the look of him. Any opinions?

Mare: http://www.pedigreequery.com/dont+skip+the+cafe

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=The Blood Bay Mare;8285940]
I have also looked at Wrote: http://www.northweststud.com/horses/wrote-9754.html.

He nicks an A+ with my mare and is by High Chaparral. Wrote did not race over fences but he is Irish bred and a grandson of Sadler’s Wells. I like the look of him. Any opinions?

Mare: http://www.pedigreequery.com/dont+skip+the+cafe[/QUOTE]

Wrote looks interesting. Another way off the wall suggestion might be Musketier (GER) at Calumet if they would give you a break on the stud fee. His sire Acatenango has sired jumps racers in Germany, and the German lines are known for their longevity.

[candico]

Not sure who would be his best son, but Salutely by Hoist the Flag sired Saluter, a timber horse that won the Virginia Gold Cup a record six times. Salute the Truth is a well-known eventing son who stands at stud. Just a thought if you are specifically looking to breed for toughness and longevity.

[camohn]

Dynaformer lines … Same Ribot family as Salutely. Not an easy tempered lot… But talented!i had a U S Flag mare that would trot over fences and gates without breaking stride.

[camohn]

If anyone is interested in breeding to DWR I would do it quickly. He is at risk of being sold as far as I can tell because he has been standing to a small book recently plus the farm he stands at Northview PA is up for sale.

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

[QUOTE=camohn;8286241]
Dynaformer lines … Same Ribot family as Salutely.[/QUOTE]

Another thread brought up Vertiformer, a Dynaformer son standing for $2k in Ohio. I came up with a “No Rating” for that match on TrueNicks but I know that doesn’t mean a whole lot. I do think he’s pretty impressive.

I really like Wrote. Honestly, he’s probably my favorite of the racing stallions that I’ve thought about.

[SPRINGBORO]

The real drag here in the US is that so few breed for steeple chasing. Northern Baby was the super star. I did pull the most recent list of top earners from http://www.nationalsteeplechase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/standings46.pdf and do see a few things that stick out.

1. Relaunch and Cozzene/Caro as a broodmare sire lines show up several times.
2. The excellent blue hen No Class has two descendants with top earnings, both Sky Classic and Dances with Ravens.
3. Dynaformer is a good solid sire for this, as is Roberto as previously mentioned.
4. Danzig and Storm Cat figure in the mix too
5. Demonstrative is tightly inbred to Mr. P, Northern Dancer, and Dr. Fager

so what all does that mean? Probably not much.
What I would recommend/reiterate from what others have said is to look for durable turf types.

Some of my suggestions:
Perfect Soul (IRE) (Kentucky)
Sligo Bay (IRE) (Ontario)

the Dynaformer sons:
Vertiformer (Ohio)
Dynamometer (South Carolina)
Cosa Vera (Virginia)
Gone North (South Carolina)

Northern Baby as a broodmare sire:
Aristotle (Illinois)
Basketball Whiz (TX)
Kahuna Jack (California)

OR:
why not a proven eventing TB stud? Those will have demonstrated jumping ability, durability, and probably are a lot cheaper than any of these flat racing stallions listed above.

Just my 2 cents…

[SPRINGBORO]

I love everything I see about Vertiformer.

scratch Dynamometer … he died in 2013

Cosa Vera is a full brother to high weighted Ocean Silk and simply loaded with turf all stars.

Gone North, out of a The Minstrel mare, has done nothing with his foals. I’d probably scratch him too.

Aristotle won some stakes and is by the speedy Two Punch. Direct family of Flower Bed.

[SPRINGBORO]

Wrote is talented and well bred, and looks like he might have a rabicano tail if color or bling matter. He appears to be a miler and did not have a lot of starts. Also, he was at his best as a two year old.

Where are you located? This would help a lot in narrowing the field as you’ll have to rely on live cover for a registerable foal.

[vineyridge]

Milers don’t matter on top. Sadler’s Wells was a miler, for example. There are lots more of those who moved into jumps racing breeding. The stamina in the UK/Ire usually is brought in through the mare.

[Elles]

The Blushing Groom line seems to be a good one for steeplechasing.

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

[QUOTE=SPRINGBORO;8286387]
Wrote is talented and well bred, and looks like he might have a rabicano tail if color or bling matter. He appears to be a miler and did not have a lot of starts. Also, he was at his best as a two year old.

Where are you located? This would help a lot in narrowing the field as you’ll have to rely on live cover for a registerable foal.[/QUOTE]

I did notice his tail, though bling/color isn’t important to me.

My mare is in Massachusetts. In a perfect world, I’d be able to ship her somewhere for breeding. But honestly the racehorse baby is a bit of a pipe dream.

I’ve also considered eventing stallions, but I definitely want to stick with a full TB. Not because I want to race, I just like TBs. I know Salute the Truth is a really cool horse, I’d love one of his.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Elles;8287656]
The Blushing Groom line seems to be a good one for steeplechasing.[/QUOTE]

Hard pass on Blushing Groom. Not a fan of that line personally.

Agree with Viney, your best bet is SW. If it doesn’t make it as a chaser, chances are it will move well enough to be a dressage horse. Roberto is also very common, and I’ve noticed they are very sound as well.

I love Dances With Ravens, but NOT for 'chasing. IIRC someone on this board did mention something about him re: soundness. But he’s a beautiful horse that passes on some serious movement.

I really also liked the look of Vertiformer.

Is Delineator still around? I would breed to him in a heartbeat. His babies are TOUGH as nails and some have made very good above-average event horses. I have a friend who almost exclusively looks for Delineator get and they are all sound sound sound sound sound. But not the easiest to ride.

[Texarkana]

There aren’t true steeplechase lines the US anymore, there are only flat racing lines that also have success in jump racing. Even the top steeplechasing owners/breeders are breeding predominately for the flat. Just my opinion, but these days it’s much more about having the phenotype of a horse who can jump rather than the pedigree.

Some of the current best horses in the country have pretty unlikely steeplechasing pedigrees. Demonstrative has 3x4 inbreeding to Mr. P (Elusive Quality out of a Quiet American mare). Mr. Hot Stuff is full brother to Colonel John. Grinding Speed is by Grindstone, a stallion who I personally think tends to give us fragile offspring on the whole. I’d probably vote Grindstone as an individual one of the stallions “least likely to sire steeplechasers,” yet Grinding Speed is still winning at 9 years of age!

Not a pro… but if it were me wanting to breed for a horse to possibly take to the hunt races and steeplechases before embarking in an eventing career, I would be concerned about the physical type of the stallion and his get first and the pedigree second.

[Elles]

There is a Blushing Groom line stallion in this listing:
http://www.newhillfarmstud.co.uk/New_Hill_Farm.pdf

http://www.beechwoodgrangestud.com/haafhd-breeding.html

[QUOTE=beowulf;8288983]
Hard pass on Blushing Groom. Not a fan of that line personally.

Agree with Viney, your best bet is SW. If it doesn’t make it as a chaser, chances are it will move well enough to be a dressage horse. Roberto is also very common, and I’ve noticed they are very sound as well.

I love Dances With Ravens, but NOT for 'chasing. IIRC someone on this board did mention something about him re: soundness. But he’s a beautiful horse that passes on some serious movement.

I really also liked the look of Vertiformer.

Is Delineator still around? I would breed to him in a heartbeat. His babies are TOUGH as nails and some have made very good above-average event horses. I have a friend who almost exclusively looks for Delineator get and they are all sound sound sound sound sound. But not the easiest to ride.[/QUOTE]

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Elles;8289257]
There is a Blushing Groom line stallion in this listing:
http://www.newhillfarmstud.co.uk/New_Hill_Farm.pdf

http://www.beechwoodgrangestud.com/haafhd-breeding.html[/QUOTE]

To be fair, that stallion is beautiful but his pedigree has so many better names in it than Blushing Groom… so unfair to credit BG for all of that beauty.

IME BG passes on gorgeous animals… but not always the soundest. I run into a lot of them w/ pretty wrecked pasterns.