You’re right and I was wrong. I read France Galop completely wrong. They show race records from newest to oldest, not oldest to newest. Makes sense to do it that way since a new result just has to be plugged into the top. So does Equibase. I thought I had filtered for just obstacle results on France Galop, but I guess I hadn’t.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8487968]
I just discovered that the Europeans have a category of race called Cross Country Chase. The length in the French races that I saw is from 6000 meters to 7300 meters. http://www.racingandsports.com.au/en/racing/-story-265615
Eventers should be interested in horses and their breeding who can run those races.
There is a video of the Glenfarclas Cross Country Chase at Cheltenham last years. Lots of drop fences on the course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBU3r2cTwZk
And here’s one from the 7300 meter French race–the Anjou-Loire Challenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgo6fcgEiQA
This is kind of interesting. Linamix was an extremely good chaser sire. One of his sons, named Golden Marvel, chased in the US and did quite well. He was then bought (?) by the Wertheimers and went (back?) to France where he did rather well as a top level chaser. Importing chase bred chasers to the US where they do much better in lesser competition is not infrequent these days, but going the other direction IS.[/QUOTE]
Golden Marvel was moderate at best in this country. 14 starts, 4 wins in low level hurdle races, stakes placed couple of times won $70.000.
Where as the French bred and raced Dawalan (gr./ro. g. 2010 by Azamour (Ire) out of Daltawa (Ire), by Miswaki. Bred by H. H. The Aga Khan’s Studs SC (Fr))
who won the Steeplechase Eclipse Award the other day was bought by Irv Naylor last spring. Made 3 starts in this country. 3 wins $235,000 The first in September, October and November. All high class stakes.
Some of the best (rather recent) steeplechase horses. To get a feel for useful ancestors in a pedigree.
Horse Born Rating
Arkle 1957 212
Flyingbolt 1959 210
Sprinter Sacre 2006 192p
Mill House 1957 191
Kauto Star 2000 191
Desert Orchid 1979 187
Dunkirk 1957 186
Burrough Hill Lad1976 184
Moscow Flyer 1994 184
Long Run 2005 184
Master Oats 1986 183
Denman 2000 183
Captain Christy 1967 182
Carvill’s Hill 1982 182
See More Business1990 182
Best Mate 1995 182
Azertyuiop 1997 182
Kicking King 1998 182
Well Chief 1999 182
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeform#Flat_vs_hurdle_vs_steeplechase
Sprinter Sacre:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sprinter+sacre
Kauto Star:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/kauto+star
Moscow Flyer:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/moscow+flyer
Long Run:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/long+run4
Denman:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/denman2
Best Mate:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/best+mate2
azertyuiop:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/azertyuiop
Kicking King:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/kicking+king
Well Chief:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/well+chief
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8487733]
Take, for instance, the winner of the 2015 Grand Steeplechase de Paris–Milord Thomas. His pedigree is almost a paradigm of Steeplechase breeding.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/milord+thomas
Or the third place horse: http://www.pedigreequery.com/shannon+rock
There is a huge amount of American breeding in both pedigrees. Just not from lines that have dominated racing here recently.[/QUOTE]
That horse Shannon Rock has Ahonoora in it’s pedigree.
This one also: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=“remember+rose”+steeplechase&gbv=2&oq=“remember+rose”+steeplechase&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...1078.7484.0.7609.28.19.0.9.0.0.79.875.19.19.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..11.17.828.DoXSb-ICWk8
Rex Magna is a known stallion in The Netherlands:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q="rex+magna"+hengst&gbv=2&oq="rex+magna"+hengst&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3..0i22i30l2.1547.6813.0.7781.18.18.0.0.0.0.78.922.18.18.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..1.17.906.C9YR-fONz5k
all very interesting, but this original thread was about steeplechase sires in the United States.
Let me say it like this. If you have looked enough at what works in Europe you start seeing what might work in the US, like for example this horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10775518&blood=10"a=
I would suggest City Wolf. Giant’s Causeway son, mother is a daughter of Relaunch. That’s great stuff, as good as it gets stateside I think and his fee is very low. I’ve also seen talk that he’s an up and comer/hidden gem in general for racing breeders. I doubt his fee will stay low long if the foal crops perform when they start racing this year. He also has a nice shoulder and hind end with good lines and looks like he will produce jump.
http://www.adenastallions.com/horses/city-wolf-17177.html
I love Giant’s Causeway himself but his fee is $85k which is a bit high unless you are super serious. There are a ton of Giant’s Causeways in jump races abroad, noticed it when I lived in London for 4 months and watched the races on the BBC a few days a week. His name comes up all the time. SW-bred ones too of course.
I love Mill Reef but I don’t know of any stallions with MR up particularly close though I didn’t look at all the ones suggested. Kauto Star was double bred to Mill Reef relatively close. (paternal and maternal grandsire)
I agree that we should look to successful European horses and their breeding.
But your link to is Street Boss? He only ran the flat, as far as I know. Yes, his sire is the wonderful Irish horse Street Cry, but I think I may be missing your point as how it relates to success over fence here in the US?
[QUOTE=Elles;8491787]
Let me say it like this. If you have looked enough at what works in Europe you start seeing what might work in the US, like for example this horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10775518&blood=10"a=[/QUOTE]
In Europe the jumpers very often decend from flat racing horses.
Yes, I don’t see the point of that. Sadler’s Wells, Giant’s Causeway, Mill Reef, none of them actually ran in jump races of course. That makes no difference if they produce horses that run in jump races.
It’s not far to look for the reason, either. You’d have to be some kind of idiot to take your extremely valuable, Kentucky Derby- or Arc d’Triomphe-winning flat racing stallion ready to embark on an extremely lucrative stud career and instead go enter it in steeplechases. I mean, that’s just insane, risk-wise, even if the horse would be quite talented.
I have been looking at jump/eventing bred sport horse pedigrees and the TB’s that worked in their pedigrees, steeplechase pedigrees and flat racing pedigrees for twenty years now. That is what gives me a feeling about what works/might work.
BTW, Ogygian is a really nice stallion as well. I have an Ogygian/Fappiano who wasn’t much of a racehorse but is a gorgeous dressage mover with a lovely jump. He has been evaluated by top eventers as having upper-level talent. Unfortunately I let him sit for a few years when I was having babies myself so he’s a bit old to have much of a career but he’s a super sporthorse. (He is in the horse Elles linked)
mine is hot, though and a pro ride only but I can’t blame Ogygian for that, could be from anyone in his family.
He’s only ever had 70 runners over fences, from over 2400 foals on the ground. Hardly tons. Of those, the majority were fairly mediocre. Jack the Giant is about the only one I can think of that made any sort of impression.
Not that that’s a knock on him, as that’s not why people spend a chunk of money to send a mare to him. But I think it’s a bit disingenuous to be holding him up as steeplechase sire.
You think that is not a lot? I think it is a fairly high ratio, for a horse with that stud fee who was a flat racer. I guess it is a matter of personal view. Many TB stallions have 0 offspring in entered in jump races.
For a horse to have 70 seems kind of amazing for a US-based horse because we don’t do that here. Though he did stand abroad for a while.
Besides, the horse has been a very successful sire of flat racers as well so it is no surprise a significant portion of his get race on the flat.
70 is a lot of actively competing horses as any stallion owner will tell you. Compared to the other horses named on this thread, I bet it is competitive with any of them except SW.
What US-based, currently alive Stallions do you propose with more than 70 jump racing offspring?
[QUOTE=Elles;8491787]
Let me say it like this. If you have looked enough at what works in Europe you start seeing what might work in the US, like for example this horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10775518&blood=10"a=[/QUOTE]
His offspring have been sharp sprinters almost exclusively, despite his sire. He looks more like the speedy side of his family and his foals resemble him. They are easily mistaken for Speightstowns or City Zips or quarter horses…
Drvm, I think that post might mean “descendants of GC” not just “offspring of” meaning his sons and daughters are sending out jumpers.
That is what people say about Mr. Prospector…
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?484403-Thoroughbred-in-the-quot-old-timers-quot
Red Rum started his career as a sprinter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Rum
http://www.grandnational.org.uk/history.php
Jump and flat racing exist in parallel in the UK and Ireland. Flat horses are usually young. Jumpers are older. They only start jumping once they are four or five and they last over many seasons, running as 12 YO or more. Often a flat horse is sold on to jump as it gets older - and has the physical maturity to hurdle and then chase. The opportunities to flat race at the highest level - the classics - are age specific. Jumpers are still considered to be youngsters at six or seven YO. So a commercial flat stallion may come to find that it has a second career as a jumping sire as it gets older. This means that a leading sire of jumpers is often deceased, e.g. Saddlers Wells.
In the past, there was a very clear difference between flat and jump lines and people bred for a different market. However, when a popular stallion, such as Saddlers Wells, can cover a huge book of mares each season then horses by SW are going to be falling out of every hedge and it is inevitable that a number of them will end up jumping.
Another little problem is that most jumpers are geldings. Why keep a horse entire if it doesn’t have value as a flat stallion? There are certain stallions marketed from the start of their career as ‘dual purpose’ or as NH stallions. Their fees are far lower. It might be 8 years or more before their success as a sire is evident.
Changes in the value of jump races, improved training methods and veterinary knowledge means any horse can stay in work for longer. I regard jump racing as the savior of the TB breed because it values stamina, courage and soundness as well as speed.
Rather than breeding, try contacting Steuart Pittman…eventer.
He is president of the Retired Racehorse Project…and you might find a diamond in the rough by selecting specific bloodlines.
His farm
http://www.dodonfarm.com
