Stellar "Upper Level" bloodlines top and bottom - Guarantee of success?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;7381813]
We use a database we created of every horse who has competed at the CCI**** level in eventing since the change of format to make our breeding decisions - in picking certain lines, percentage thoroughbred, height, etc. I guess we will know how successful this experiment has been in another 3 to 10 years when we have offspring who are old enough to compete at the upper levels. A lot of what we have been told by “experts” is not what our numbers show. For example, try and sell a 15.3 hand horse and it is tough, but, according to our database, smaller horses with a higher percentage thoroughbred are more likely to make CCI**** eventers than the 16.3 hand plus horses with a high percentage warmblood who are so popular these days…[/QUOTE]

Aw man, I’m guessing this isn’t available to the public? :winkgrin:

[skydy]

TrueColours;
Thoroughbred race horses are culled through the same selection process (performance) as eventing or dressage horses.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/45618/acoma-is-a-blue-hen-in-the-making

There are so many examples . Mares are HUGE in the equation of every breed, and for every discipline.
Surely you must know that as a breeder?

[TrueColours]

Thoroughbred race horses are culled through the same selection process (performance) as eventing or dressage horses.

Of course they are. Never said they werent. But by virtue of many breeders on this thread saying “breed the best and ride the rest” that is prevalent through many esteemed WB/Sport Horse breeding programs, that doesnt even come close to following the model used for TB or SB breeding where the best bred, most talented fillies are raced 100% of the time and not put straight into the breeding shed once they are able to conceive. But of course if that wildly talented race horse / dressage horse, jumper or eventer is not successful in that discipline where it counts, they will all be culled at some point and then some breeder - somewhere - will make the determination if they are a good genetic pool candidate based on bloodlines and early ability or not.

Mares are HUGE in the equation of every breed, and for every discipline.
Surely you must know that as a breeder? .

I sure DO know that … … thats why I am so interested in this foal. It has absolutely everything going for it - on paper - to be a star. The mare line is stellar in every possible way. It would withstand any scrutiny. I would manage and give the foal every chance to develop correctly up to 3 years of age and it would then be turned over to a very competent rider to back it at three. A friend is an upper level rider in the hunter and jumper rings (GP / Nations Cup levels) and she would get the ride on it from that point onwards

A comment was made early on that many reputable breeders feel the mare cannot do both - she has to either be a good competitor or a good broodmare - she cannot be both. The dam of this upcoming foal is older. This will be her first foal so no previous history to go on with her

It absolutely is a leap of faith to buy in utero. All I have to go on is bloodlines, similar crosses in the past, performance history and hope that is enough. And hope that the jumping ability shown through both the sire and dam line through history will also come through in this foal

[Galileo1998]

Actually TC, a lot of spectacularly bred Tbred fillies never see a race track. Of course most are put into training, but if they don’t appear to show a natural aptitude for running they are often put away and bred. There’s a saying “better unraced than unplaced” that you’ll hear applied to these beautifully bred fillies.

[Sacha]

In the opening post, you refer to the mare’s own performance record and then that of her sire, damsire, great damsire.
In a TB peddigree, the names on the page that everyone focuses on are the dam, grand dam, great granddam and what they have produced. Time and time again a mare who has had a less than stellar career on the track, but comes from a very strong black type family, can produce black type offspring.
And remember they onl have to mange one o rtwo seasons on the track and they can be in the breeding shed. They can be proven performers in a very short space of time.
In sporthorses,they need to get to at least 6 years old and do the young hose championships, to have acheived anything worth while in sport and ideally they want to get to say small tour for dressage or 1.40+ tracks for show jumping. Thats why with a mare frmo a stellar producing mother line it can be better to retire her to breeding before she has had time to do that.

[vandenbrink]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7382460]
Now I am also really curious based on the comments made - what upper level mares in any discipline have produced upper level offspring in theirs or a different discipline? I am wracking my brain and cant even think of one???[/QUOTE]

I’ll pick a local example for you. Look at the Canadian Warmblood mare Riva currently competing with her owner and breeder Jay Hayes. She is a daughter of Jay’s super international jumper mare Diva and sired by Rio Grande. I’ve attached a link to her FEI record. She’s only 10 and her record is impressive.

https://data.fei.org/Ranking/RankingResult.aspx?p=7C5399994804E2238CBCA89E115CDBC056C66C35B22A1D00BFEE817547DEE3E3

[omare]

I did think at least in the old days even the best bred xx mares were tried at the track to get their “maiden” status broken. I thought it was important to increase their value as a broodmare on paper to win one race at least and find a spot where they would not be claimed to do so. Once they did that, if they were not otherwise stakes material, they were immediately sent to the breeding shed…but maybe times have changed-I realize the xx breeding business is a lot different now due to the recession etc.although they seem to always point out if a mare won at the sales?

(edited to add: I thought the blood horse or thoroughbred times published a study showing winning (and stakes winning) mares produced better than nonraced/maiden non winning mares once other factors were eliminated for differences–and the same held true for stallions.) But of course nothing is guaranteed with horses-- all you can do is improve our chances.)

[rugbygirl]

Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours

Now I am also really curious based on the comments made - what upper level mares in any discipline have produced upper level offspring in theirs or a different discipline? I am wracking my brain and cant even think of one???

I’m really surprised that as a sporthorse breeder you couldn’t come up with ONE upper level mare who produced upper level offspring.

Off the top of my head, locally, I came up with Lizou (Junior campaigned to 1.30m) and her daughter Dizou, as well as Lesandra (international) - Pearl - Vanilla Shake. 4 out of 5 were competed by the VandenBosch family.

Maybe that’s not upper level enough?

Rox Dene - Rose Hill?

Touch of Class has grand-foals competing, again, maybe not the Upper Level you’re talking about?

---

Maybe you’re looking for Dressage mares specifically?

Just in the pedigree of the only dressage mare I can think of, off the top of my head, Blue Hors Matine, you can see that Silvermoon’s dam competed federally (according to Superior Equine Sires), then went on to produce Silvermoon, who besides competing himself, went on to sire Matine as well as horses competing in Eventing and Showjumping.

[mareslave]

[QUOTE=ShannonD;7382641]
La Silla has a habit of using international jumping mares to make international jumping offspring

And just one off the top of my head. This mare competed at 1.40+ internationally, as did her daughter, and granddaughter. They definitely exist.

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/96115[/QUOTE]

Narcotique de Muze (Darco) dominated the 1.60s with Eric Lamaze. Her approved son Querlybet Hero (by Baloubet du Rouet) was earned the honorific “Ambassador” with BWP.

[mareslave]

One of the problems I’ve noticed: many people don’t know upper level mares to begin with, so they can wrack their brains all they want, but if they aren’t noticing mares, no name is going to pop up in conversation.

Congratulations on your in utero purchase. Pedigree is very, very important, as is conformation, heart, training, husbandry. I don’t know if it’s only 1% important or even how you’d measure - I do know there’s a huge difference between a foal from #1 in the world sire and tony-pony down the road.

[Wits_End_Eventing]

Also, no matter how good the bloodlines, the genetics, the breeding, etc., the best horse in the world can perform poorly with a poor rider. And visa versa. I watched a Mark Todd clinic years ago, and he rode almost every horse in the clinic, and they suddenly looked like a million bucks. I would put more money on Mark Todd riding a B+/A- horse and turning it into a superstar than on myself riding the best horse I could breed…

[TrueColours]

I’ll pick a local example for you. Look at the Canadian Warmblood mare Riva currently competing with her owner and breeder Jay Hayes. She is a daughter of Jay’s super international jumper mare Diva and sired by Rio Grande.

I am so glad you mentioned this one Jackie! Diva was such a favorite of mine and I know that Pedro froze several embryos from her but didnt know if any were implanted or who they were or who was riding them. She was a jaw dropping fabulous mare wasnt she?!

Thanks for that info

[fire_911medic]

I am curious if this foal is coming out of KY - just curious because I know of one of this description which originally was stated as not for sale. If so, congrats because that would definitely be a nice foal and a good prospect !

Does a upper level pedigree increase your chance of success ? Sure does. Same as with racehorses. The successful ones are bred more (especially stallions) especially stallions simply by design they can produce more a year. It is the same case with racehorses. Your chances are better. However you do always have the chance that it may come out and not want to come to the party. Happens all the time in racing - on paper they should be perfect but choose not to run. The Green Monkey - prime example (racing and buyers biggest and most expensive folly). Indeed sometimes you get lucky and it all works as it should, but sometimes it doesn’t.

All in all, yes it does improve likelihood of having a successful horse, but I think you improve your chances of having an upper level horse buying a started horse. That being said though, there is considerably more expense with more known factors. I was told a long time ago buy what you want, don’t try to breed it because most of the time you dont get lucky. I’ve been lucky so far but I had to breed my own because there was no way I could afford to buy the next section up.

I don’t buy the german way of thinking. It isn’t like the TB where it can only be registered live cover. Mares can be embryo transfer and there are plenty of mares out there competing that are proving themselves and producing foals on other circuits that I don’t think jumpers or dressage horses are anything special in that aspect. No reason they can’t do transfers.

[TrueColours]

I am curious if this foal is coming out of KY - just curious because I know of one of this description which originally was stated as not for sale. If so, congrats because that would definitely be a nice foal and a good prospect !

No it isnt but now Im curious which one this one is you’re referring to?

I’ll '“spill the beans” once all is said and done. SO excited about this one!

[TrueColours]

I think this mare was my all time favorite show jumping mare

http://www.csi-sanpatrignano.org/en/blue-eyed-mare

Does anyone know if any of her offspring have hit the upper levels at all? And how they are doing?

[fire_911medic]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7384168]
No it isnt but now Im curious which one this one is you’re referring to?

I’ll '“spill the beans” once all is said and done. SO excited about this one![/QUOTE]

I’ll PM you regarding…Only way I was aware of it was because I was considering frozen from another sire from the same farm he stood at and wanted to see a few horses by him aside from the breeders.

[mikali]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7384083]
I am so glad you mentioned this one Jackie! Diva was such a favorite of mine and I know that Pedro froze several embryos from her but didnt know if any were implanted or who they were or who was riding them. She was a jaw dropping fabulous mare wasnt she?!

Thanks for that info :)[/QUOTE]

Bob Henselwood bought a few of those Diva embryos (2x Indoctro and 2x Quidam de Revel). All the mares have offspring.

One of the Indoctro’s is still a broodmare, but Jill was competing with the other one in the Level 7’s/1.40m at point. I’m not sure what the Quidam’s are up to.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7382798]
Of course they are. Never said they werent. But by virtue of many breeders on this thread saying “breed the best and ride the rest” that is prevalent through many esteemed WB/Sport Horse breeding programs, that doesnt even come close to following the model used for TB or SB breeding where the best bred, most talented fillies are raced 100% of the time and not put straight into the breeding shed once they are able to conceive. But of course if that wildly talented race horse / dressage horse, jumper or eventer is not successful in that discipline where it counts, they will all be culled at some point and then some breeder - somewhere - will make the determination if they are a good genetic pool candidate based on bloodlines and early ability or not.

I don’t understand your interpretation of the word culled.

The meaning of “culled” ,as I understand it has always meant removed from consideration as a breeding animal, not as a term for a horse that was retired for lack of performance…

I hope your in utero works out well!

Since you are a breeder and you love the dam line, I don’t understand why you are hoping for a colt!

[TrueColours]

^^^

I have 2 knees that are shot and need to be replaced. The sooner the better. Kneeling down to deliver foals kills me. Maybe once I have “new” knees it will be better - maybe not. I guess time will tell. Handling the stallions is easy for me still and even the young colts - doesnt bother me at all.

Have sold my mares and cant envision getting any more in at this stage but then again time will tell I guess.

Going forward, I will stand my Guaranteed Gold stallion and perhaps his son if he hasnt sold, and then refocus my involvement in the horses by getting some nice prospects to bring along, and then marketing and selling them once they are broke and going and perhaps have a show career on them

This getting old and creaky stinks. BIG time … but it is what it is …

And my interpretation of the word “culled” ? If a nice race filly isnt running worth spit, and she isnt well bred enough or desired within race breeding programs but some hunter breeder loves her movement, type and conformation and sees a valid spot for her in a hunter breeding program, she will be “culled” from the race / TB gene pool and move into another area - as a possible hunter producing mare.

[vandenbrink]

I think why “breed the best and sell the rest” applies to warmblood breeding and not so much thoroughbred breeding philosophies in in part due to the length of what is considered a satisfactory performance career in each respective sport. If a TB mare has a year or two of wins under her belt she is a stellar performer.

You are asking for successful upper level competitors for warmbloods. By the time horses hit the grand prix jumper or dressage rings they are often 10 years old, or close to it. After this training investment you want at least several years in the show ring and you can’t afford to keep them home if they are any good since they are finally making some money. You can’t flush mares while actively competing as it really wreaks havoc with their hormones, and many will argue and suspect research will support that they embryos of those very actively competing mares are not the most viable. The timeline is just too long, and by the time you’re using this mare in her late teens she’s no longer all that fertile. Another key point is that her bloodlines may be OLD NEWS by then. The Europeans breed young mares so they have young modern pedigrees which is what the market demands. You have a better chance of getting a stallion licenced, or getting a sale topper at an auction, with a very modern pedigree. by hot new sire, out of a daughter of what was a hot new sire a few years ago, but is now proven to be a good producer. That seems to be the magic formula.