Stifle Issue?

[laurenvpd11]

@IPEsq

Hi OP, I just wanted to point out that you will be waiting at least a couple of months to do a bone scan if you do the SI injection and it doesn’t help. The injection will skew the results, so you have to wait.

Thoracic X-rays aren’t horribly expensive. You could see KS on a good field machine. To look at the articular facets well, you would want a clinic X-ray.

Just throwing this out there because my horse has a lot of similar behaviors. Refusing to go forward, balking, popping up, kicking out. He’s not a hot horse, but when he’s feeling good he’s got a natural motor. Way worse u/s than on the longe or at liberty. We suspected SI for a while but did not inject because we decided to do the bone scan.

Nothing showed up on the bone scan for the SI or up high behind. His lower back lit up though. We had already done T-spine X-rays, which were repeated. He has some changes at the dorsal spinous processes at the areas that lit up. The X-rays look the same now as ~2 yrs ago. But we decided to treat his back and leave his SI alone. Probably in the long run this is approach in diagnostics is going to cost us less $. We just did that today, and he needs a good amount of recovery time before I try getting back on. None of the inflamed area was under the saddle–all behind the saddle. But, it might be why he crow hops a bit at the canter and doesn’t go under saddle and wants to stop and park out behind. We have to wait and see. If this doesn’t work, we would have to get into weird internal or repro issue kind of territory most likely.

Not saying you have the same problems, but KS or another back issue is definitely a possibility and why we X-rayed to rule that out a couple years ago. I think SI injections are a reasonable thing to try. But if they don’t work, what would you do next and how much waiting around are you willing to do?

I’m also surprised by the videos that your vets considered her to pass a lameness workup. Did they watch her move with rider weight?

Thank you for pointing that out…I did not know that. Now I am reconsidering injecting her SI first. An SI injection wouldn’t affect x-rays would it?

Does your boy crow hop into the canter or while he is cantering? My girl is fine walking and cantering, but trotting and the trot to canter transition is where our problems are.

I honestly do not know what I would try next if the SI injections do not work. To be honest I don’t want to wait at all! lol I obviously know that is not a possibility, but I would like to do what I can to get her back to herself as soon as I can.

The first vet did not see her under saddle, but the second vet did. She passed the flexion tests and x-rayed clean in hocks and stifles. Under saddle is where all our problems lie.

Also, I know a lot of people were telling me it was her saddle, so I should add that I know for a fact it is not my saddle. She has been out of work for around two months and I hopped on her the other day bareback just to see what she felt like. We only did w/t, she felt pretty good at first, but then did a little kick out so I went ahead and wrapped things up. She is a horse that really wants to please, so she is definitely telling me something hurts ):

[IPEsq]

Injections of the SI won’t have any impact on the X-rays of the spine. It just can skew how the isotope does its thing for the bone scan and give you possibly inaccurate results.The isotope collects in areas of bony inflammation. This means it can also show some ligamentous issues (such as SI ligament or suspensory) because pissed off ligaments usually cause irritation of the bone they attach to.

For example, the dorsal spinous processes in my horse lit up on the bone scan. X-ray showed sclerosis. This is caused by inflammation causing the bone to lay down more bone. Because he doesn’t have KS, there’s got to be inflammation in the surrounding supraspinous ligament and maybe in the fascia of the lats, given the specific location of his case.

There is obviously something about rider weight that makes things more painful for her. This could certainly mean a back issue or a host of other things. If this is just how she deals with discomfort, then it could be pain almost anywhere. Ask me how I know…:lol:

To answer your other question, my horse occasionally crow hops into the canter, more so on the R lead. He tends to get leaning more to the right, so the hop seems to be him objecting to straightening up sufficiently to pick up the lead. He would crow hop while cantering to the left which would take the form of swap behind, hop, hop, lean on the bit, BUCK. Both of these behaviors happened in phases, so I don’t know if it was attitude or pain–I tended to lean towards attitude, since I’ve seen those tricks before from horses this age.

When we first considered that his back or SI might need treating (1.5 years ago now?), it was because when he anticipated it being time to pick up the canter (especially R lead), he would start hopping, even if I was really just intending to keep on trotting. He would not do it in walk to canter transitions. He would not crow hop at the trot otherwise. This was when he was generally still willing to go forward. Since he wasn’t shutting down, I think I resolved it through fitness at that time. Couldn’t keep him fit due to a completely unrelated injury. Flash forward to now, he has shut down so much he cow kicks out at my leg or spur or whip at the halt or walk when he’s refusing to go forward and I keep asking. If I ask for an upward transition from whatever gait I’m in (walk or trot), he stops. If I just use voice, no cow kicking but ears pinned, head up, balk/stop. If I get really firm, then he starts popping up in front and will kick out with both legs behind in place. He will say no back as loudly as I say go. When I’m not on his back and ask him to go, I get a little bit of “Do I have to?..Oh FINE”, which I’d call his teenage normal laziness.

[beowulf]

before you do SI injections, which are costly both from a time, management and financial standpoint, x-ray her back. For the love of god don’t be one of those people that injects an area without x-raying it first.

I still would be really surprised if it is not KS. I’m thinking something directly under the saddle is bothering her and its manifesting in soreness in other places.

Still don’t think any of the videos show a sound horse. Don’t like the gait asymmetry and the dragging behind, or the stiffness of the hip and tight neck.

[laurenvpd11]

@beowulf

before you do SI injections, which are costly both from a time, management and financial standpoint, x-ray her back. For the love of god don’t be one of those people that injects an area without x-raying it first.

I still would be really surprised if it is not KS. I’m thinking something directly under the saddle is bothering her and its manifesting in soreness in other places.

Still don’t think any of the videos show a sound horse. Don’t like the gait asymmetry and the dragging behind, or the stiffness of the hip and tight neck.

She is getting x-rays and ultrasound done next Thursday. Believe me, I am not one to inject without investigation first. The first vet I took her to watched her go and immediately wanted me to inject her hocks. Needless to say I do not use him as my vet any longer.

I never had any issues with her before August. I have had several trainers and vets see her go and they never said she looked unsound, prior to our current issues.

Hopefully next week I will have some answers.

[beowulf]

@laurenvpd11

She is getting x-rays and ultrasound done next Thursday. Believe me, I am not one to inject without investigation first. The first vet I took her to watched her go and immediately wanted me to inject her hocks. Needless to say I do not use him as my vet any longer.

I never had any issues with her before August. I have had several trainers and vets see her go and they never said she looked unsound, prior to our current issues.

Hopefully next week I will have some answers.

Are you only x-raying the SI? I mean, the machine is already out and they charge you for that - a few snaps of film of the spine is only a little more – at least with my vet.

Hope it’s something easy to fix.

[laurenvpd11]

@IPEsq

Injections of the SI won’t have any impact on the X-rays of the spine. It just can skew how the isotope does its thing for the bone scan and give you possibly inaccurate results.The isotope collects in areas of bony inflammation. This means it can also show some ligamentous issues (such as SI ligament or suspensory) because pissed off ligaments usually cause irritation of the bone they attach to.

For example, the dorsal spinous processes in my horse lit up on the bone scan. X-ray showed sclerosis. This is caused by inflammation causing the bone to lay down more bone. Because he doesn’t have KS, there’s got to be inflammation in the surrounding supraspinous ligament and maybe in the fascia of the lats, given the specific location of his case.

There is obviously something about rider weight that makes things more painful for her. This could certainly mean a back issue or a host of other things. If this is just how she deals with discomfort, then it could be pain almost anywhere. Ask me how I know…:lol:

To answer your other question, my horse occasionally crow hops into the canter, more so on the R lead. He tends to get leaning more to the right, so the hop seems to be him objecting to straightening up sufficiently to pick up the lead. He would crow hop while cantering to the left which would take the form of swap behind, hop, hop, lean on the bit, BUCK. Both of these behaviors happened in phases, so I don’t know if it was attitude or pain–I tended to lean towards attitude, since I’ve seen those tricks before from horses this age.

When we first considered that his back or SI might need treating (1.5 years ago now?), it was because when he anticipated it being time to pick up the canter (especially R lead), he would start hopping, even if I was really just intending to keep on trotting. He would not do it in walk to canter transitions. He would not crow hop at the trot otherwise. This was when he was generally still willing to go forward. Since he wasn’t shutting down, I think I resolved it through fitness at that time. Couldn’t keep him fit due to a completely unrelated injury. Flash forward to now, he has shut down so much he cow kicks out at my leg or spur or whip at the halt or walk when he’s refusing to go forward and I keep asking. If I ask for an upward transition from whatever gait I’m in (walk or trot), he stops. If I just use voice, no cow kicking but ears pinned, head up, balk/stop. If I get really firm, then he starts popping up in front and will kick out with both legs behind in place. He will say no back as loudly as I say go. When I’m not on his back and ask him to go, I get a little bit of “Do I have to?..Oh FINE”, which I’d call his teenage normal laziness.

Did you end up getting a full body bone scan on your horse? If/when I get one, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do a full or only half.

Weird, my mare’s problem is mostly on the right lead/direction as well. Your description of how your horse reacts to being asked to move forward reminds me of my mare. When I was still riding her fairly consistently (3-4 days as compared to our usual 5-6 days) she would get to the point that even if I verbally asked for an upward transition she would make a “nasty face” (i.e. ears pinned with her head in the air). When I rode her last week she was much more willing to go forward, she was obviously still hurting, but hopefully her willingness is a good sign. I will probably just leave her alone (maybe some short walks around the pasture) until we can figure out what is going on.

Really hoping to get some answers next Thursday.

[laurenvpd11]

@beowulf

Are you only x-raying the SI? I mean, the machine is already out and they charge you for that - a few snaps of film of the spine is only a little more – at least with my vet.

Hope it’s something easy to fix.

I’m gonna get him to do her whole back. Like you said, might as well go ahead and do the whole things since he’s already out there. Fingers crossed for answers!

Thanks!

[IPEsq]

I did the whole body scan. Because he has some known issues in the front end as well and his go-to behavior for any pain is this balking behavior, we wanted to look at everything. It also provided some good information on how things were going maintenance-wise in the front end of the horse.

My horse did the exact same behavior when it was his neck that needed treating, so like I said…sometimes it looks like the hind end or feels like the hind end but it’s really just because when this type of horse says no, they are more apt to express it with kicking out and such. A friend’s horse started doing the same thing. I hacked him some for them and would swear up and down to you his R stifle had to be it based on how he felt under saddle–and I’ve been good at Dx’ing a stifle issue from the saddle in a few prior cases. They went around and around injecting stifles and treating the SI. Turns out it was bilateral front feet with that one, specifically navicular area issues.

[TWH_Girl]

You can’t x-ray the SI due to the muscle mass there. I still keep coming back to this horse blocked sound in the R stifle and was still sticky after that. You can chase down a lot of false leads with bone scans. I contend the R stifle deserves the attention with SI as a close second, and perhaps a partial contributer.

I personally think it’s worth a stifle u/s for additional information and the bute test. Not Equioxx or Previcox, but bute, exactly as described by Dr Bob at Atlanta Equine. I consulted with him long distance regarding my guy and he did a review of records and saw video. I would recommend this as an additional consult.

As in any good detective work, you have to follow where your evidence takes you.

[TWH_Girl]

@TWH Girl

As in any good detective work, you have to follow where your evidence takes you.

Also, yes, I watch too much ID tv and Lt Kenda is on right now…sigh.

[DJohn]

Keep us posted, OP!
We are watching with curiosity and hope!

[beowulf]

You can x-ray the SI… or at least, my vet was perfectly capable of doing it… Keep us posted OP - Jingling for you.

[laurenvpd11]

Thank y’all!! We will be x-raying and ultrasounding (not even sure if that is a word haha) a lot on Thursday! Praying for some answers. My vet told me he’s determined to figure this out, so that gives me a boost of encouragement! Will be posting an update as soon as possible

[laurenvpd11]

@IPEsq

I did the whole body scan. Because he has some known issues in the front end as well and his go-to behavior for any pain is this balking behavior, we wanted to look at everything. It also provided some good information on how things were going maintenance-wise in the front end of the horse.

My horse did the exact same behavior when it was his neck that needed treating, so like I said…sometimes it looks like the hind end or feels like the hind end but it’s really just because when this type of horse says no, they are more apt to express it with kicking out and such. A friend’s horse started doing the same thing. I hacked him some for them and would swear up and down to you his R stifle had to be it based on how he felt under saddle–and I’ve been good at Dx’ing a stifle issue from the saddle in a few prior cases. They went around and around injecting stifles and treating the SI. Turns out it was bilateral front feet with that one, specifically navicular area issues.

Very interesting about the front feet. My mare doesn’t have the best front feet, but they’re a heck of a lot better now than they were when I bought her. Definitely something to keep in mind though.

If it comes down to getting a bone scan, I have a feeling I am going to opt for the full body as well. It seems to be more “bang for your buck” so to speak, and you won’t be left questioning if there is a front end issue.

If only they could talk!!

[vxf111]

Where are you located, OP?

[laurenvpd11]

@vxf111

Where are you located, OP?

Beaufort, SC

[IPEsq]

I used to live in roughly your neck of the woods and used a vet a bit farther away for most of my non-routine vet work. Sometimes I had to haul to them unless our barn could give them a pretty full day at our location. One of my former vets is still in practice and has a nice clinic. A friend of mine from high school is also a performance horse vet not too far away with a mobile practice, and I think they do a good job as well. If you’d like a reference, please PM me. For a bone scan, I’d probably haul down to a clinic in the Ocala area.

[vxf111]

@laurenvpd11

Beaufort, SC

Dr. Keane may still be in Aiken (he goes there over the winter, is based in PA). I can literally think of no one better. If he’s still near you and you can haul to him, I would take advantage of that possibility for a fresh set of eyes.

[Gloria]

I did not read the whole thread, nor did I watch the video, but your description on the first post sounds eerily like my young mare (7 years old). We have gone through the whole shebang, from feet to ulcer to saddle (custom made saddle for her) to top trainer to chiropractor to essential oil to massage, all with very limited result. she kicks out at canter, buck or try to run off when applying leg pressure. She does not have clear four beat walk. Her trot is off. Her canter is bunny-hoppy. She is obviously uncomfortable.

Never once did I feel she was unwilling though. Nevertheless, her poor performance under saddle and in hand was disheartening.

It took a very good sport/lameness vet to identify arthritis on both stifles. I think the vet spent about 45 minutes with her evaluating her. It was not what I wanted to hear, for such a young horse, but it was a relief to finally know “WTF…” We did injections and are now in two weeks of anti-inflammatory. In two days, we saw drastic improvement in her movements. We will now need to decide what the long term solution is. I don’t want to inject her regularly at this young age. We will see…

Anyway, there are many reasons for your horse’s behavior. I just want to let you know this “possibility”

[laurenvpd11]

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Yesterday’s ultrasounds revealed a tear in my mare’s middle patellar ligament. The vet and I are confident this is the cause of our issues, as it fits the puzzle for why my mare acts the way she does. She is going to be getting stall rest, PRP, and shockwave therapy to help with the healing process. So glad to finally have a solid game plan for recovery after almost 6 months of searching for answers!

I truly appreciate everyone’s help and info! I have learned a lot from this post, and from this whole experience in general.