A horse with a straight hindleg is not good at jumping?
This horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10486473&time=1375723150
was a champion steeplechaser.
Those are some straight legs too! I know nothing about the reason behind that theory, but I have heard many people poo-poo it.
Here is an interesting little article comparing hind leg confirmation for event horses:
http://jwequine.com/jwequine/pdf/Conformation-Eventer.pdf
One example has a very straight hind leg, the other with a more traditional jumping conformation - it is noted that stifle placement is very important. The example you provided, while straight behind, has a desirable low stifle for jumping.
There are plenty of exceptions to every rule you can come up with in conformation. I think in every conformation discussion here, someone points out that they had a horse with “that” conformation fault (whatever that particular thread is about) that went on to do great things.
Two points: 1) Conformation isn’t an independent stacking of traits that are exclusive of other traits. A horse with straight angles in one joint may make up for it with other positive conformational advantages.
- You also have to consider that conformation isn’t the only factor in making or breaking an athlete. Often times the amount of try (or heart) a horse has will make up for limited conformation. I have a mare with straight hind legs. By conformation she should have been a 3’6" (max) horse. She not only took me through the 1.40m (4’7") jumpers, she walked away with the championship more times than not. The mare was a freak. But no doubt that she had to try twice as hard as any other horse I’ve ever sat on over big jumps. And we had to be 100% accurate because she couldn’t make up for a mistake at that level.
But if you’re looking at a blank slate (like an OTTB or general prospect), which is what most comments are made in regards to, why would you start with a conformational shortcoming that can have a very serious limiting factor on the amount of scope the horse has? By the laws of odds, you’re not likely to find that one freak that proves 75% of the other horses with that conformational weakness wrong. Might as well stack the deck in your favor if the horse hasn’t already been proven to do what it, in theory, shouldn’t be able to.
I thought many jumpers tended to have a straighter hind leg–my simplistic view is that the leg required less stress/compression to act like a spring.
But maybe my straighter hind leg equals jump theory comes from the fact that a lot of local hunt horses were and are traditionally thoroughbred where you tend to see it more.
I understood Voltaire was suppose to have a more open angle but I could not see it. My relative’s horse that jumped in 1.6m classes also had a straighter hind leg and he definitely had “springs” (like invisible wings) over those courses instead of a pure “powering” over it (like a Cumano/Berlin would).
[QUOTE=Elles;7217231]
A horse with a straight hindleg is not good at jumping?
This horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486473&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10486473&time=1375723150
was a champion steeplechaser.[/QUOTE]
It isn’t that they are not good movers or good jumpers…just more prone to certain injuries.
Whether or not they are good movers or jumpers depends on more than just the hind leg…so yes, a horse with a straight hind leg CAN be (and there have been many) very good jumpers or movers. Because they are more prone to certain injuries though, it is not a desirable trait to breed for…
I had a horse with a very straight hind leg and a grandsire who was rumored to produce hock problems. She became unrideable at eight due to hock arthritis.
I’m not going to pull out the research, but often a straighter hind leg makes for a better jumper and dressage horse. The idea is that the more open angles allow for more coiling. My mare has a very straight hind leg that looks much like that. She has a super talent for piaffe and passage.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7218559]
I’m not going to pull out the research, but often a straighter hind leg makes for a better jumper and dressage horse. The idea is that the more open angles allow for more coiling. My mare has a very straight hind leg that looks much like that. She has a super talent for piaffe and passage.[/QUOTE]
That’s very interesting. I have heard several times over the years that jumpers did have straight hind legs, but never heard it in terms of dressage. I would have thought that a straight leg would make it more difficult for them to “sit” and do the collected movements.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7218559]
I’m not going to pull out the research, but often a straighter hind leg makes for a better jumper and dressage horse. The idea is that the more open angles allow for more coiling. My mare has a very straight hind leg that looks much like that. She has a super talent for piaffe and passage.[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for dressage but am familiar with the straight hind end = good jump theory.
Have a look at Guidam who had an amazingly straight hind end and whose jumping ability cannot be ignored!
Off the top of my head, Galoubet was a bit post legged in pictures I’ve seen. Kannan is a bit straight too. I’m not saying straight as a board, but they definitely tend towards straight vs. sickle hocked. I think we could come up with a pretty big list of grand prix horses if we wanted to. The “butt” angles and stifle are going to be a bigger deal, imo.
I can’t think of any sickle hocked grand prix horses. Can anyone?
I too was going to bring up the stallion Guidam but Sakura Hill Farm beat me to it :-)!
One of our mares is by Guidam and she also has a straighter hind leg. He has excellent power over the jumps and is still sound and competing successfully at almost 14 years old!
Re: sickle hocked… isn’t the stallion Jazz somewhat sickle hocked?
Mikael Holmstrom did the studies. I found some of it on the internet. I initially went to a conference with him. Here is some of it. You can buy his book, but it seems most of this stuff on the internet is from my notes.
"Dr Mikael Holmstrom has been studying the correlation between conformation and locomotion in young horses and their subsequent performance potential. He has analysed a large number of elite dressage and jumping horses and found that they have a very similar hind limb conformation. The horses have a rather flat pelvis, a forward sloping femur, a relatively large stifle angle and a normal or somewhat open hock angle.
http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/conformation.htm
“The differences in conformation between elite and average horses are small” he points out, “so an objective means of analysing conformation is required.”
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10659/focus-on-discipline-dressage
"Dressage requires strong hindquarters so the horse can overstep, or track up. The hindquarters have long muscles and strong bones.
Bone proportions in the limbs affect the stride. A long, forward-sloping femur helps the horse reach farther under himself. A horse with this angulation can show better balance while moving. In his article, “Relationships between Conformation, Performance, and Health in 4-year-old Swedish Warmblood Riding Horses,” Holmstrom explained: “A forwardly sloping femur places the hind limbs more under the horse and in combination with a rather flat pelvis it facilitates the work of quadriceps femoris, which probably is the most strained group of muscles when a horse works in collected gaits. If the muscles cannot keep the stifle joint straight when maximum weight is put on the hind leg, the horse must bear weight on its fore limbs and is no longer working in balance.”
Holmstrom recorded the medical and orthopedic status of the horses tested. He noted higher medical scores for horses with a long humerus and femur, short metatarsus, small angle between the scapula and horizontal plane, and small angle of the shoulder joint. In orthopedic status, horses scored higher with a long humerus, large angle of the elbow joint, and small angles between scapula and femur and the horizontal plane.
Holmstrom noted that better horses show a larger hock angle, at 154 degrees. A smaller angle can affect the horse’s ability to bear weight and move with elasticity. The flexion at the hock gives the horse a more powerful propulsion at the trot."
http://www.scienceofmotion.com/motion__microscope_therapy_.html
http://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/gestures_verses_energy_.html
Is there a picture of the ideal Dr Mikael Holmstrom is talking about please?
We can take many top performing horses and find conformation faults. Bornfree had an excellent post. The idea with analyzing conformation, especially when purchasing unproven youngsters (or older unproven horses), is often a guide as to how an animal may hold up in the future for the career of choice. Most people don’t want to gamble with a horse that may have future potential issues over one who does not have those conformatin flaws.
So many variables. For every conformation fault, you’ll have X horses that have it and are fine. And many lesser known horses that have it aren’t. Horses are a crap shoot. Or the horse can walk out in the field and break its leg anyway.
When you say straight hind leg - you have to consider WHAT is straight. Hock angle? Stifle? Hip? A post legged horse (we see a lot of them in the QH halter world) WILL have problems - they can’t really coil and bend their joints enough for jumping or collection.
In general - and there are SO many exceptions - you want some hock angle, and you need a long enough hip. Too much angle and not enough angle can both cause soundness and training problems and make it more difficult for the horse. I personally avoid a horse who is too straight because I’ve seen way too many of them struggle with collection and ultimately have lameness issues very early in life. But I also know plenty of horses who are pretty straight behind and are performing well.
So, it really isn’t an easy answer…
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7221856]
When you say straight hind leg - you have to consider WHAT is straight. Hock angle? Stifle? Hip? A post legged horse (we see a lot of them in the QH halter world) WILL have problems - they can’t really coil and bend their joints enough for jumping or collection.
In general - and there are SO many exceptions - you want some hock angle, and you need a long enough hip. Too much angle and not enough angle can both cause soundness and training problems and make it more difficult for the horse. I personally avoid a horse who is too straight because I’ve seen way too many of them struggle with collection and ultimately have lameness issues very early in life. But I also know plenty of horses who are pretty straight behind and are performing well.
So, it really isn’t an easy answer…[/QUOTE]
Good point. To be clear I was just referring to a straight hock angle and GP jumping.
Holmstrom has the study as a book I think you can buy. I took notes, and I haven’t found any pictures on the internet.
Is anyone reading this month’s Equus on Secretariat and why he was so successful? I just read the part where he has a super straight hind end. There are lots of statistics in there and lots of pictures.
Remember, he’s pointing out the difference between OK and elite/world class horses. It’s not a lot of difference, but there seem to be a lot of elite performance horses that have what most people would consider straight hind legs. Look at Equus. Secretariat has pretty straight hind legs.
I believe that it has been recognized for a very long time that straight hind legs are good for speed.
As stated to me by a German warmblood inspector:
Straight hindlegs do not necessarily hamper performance - there are plenty of examples of horses with very straight hind ends who are performing / have performed in top international competition. But the question is: should such animals be bred?
There are some folks who think performance is all that counts when selecting breeding stock - IOW, if the horse is successful in the show ring, it is worthy of being bred. Many of the warmblood registry inspectors feel differently. They know there are/will many horses with less than ideal conformation who can tear it up in the big ring. But they also know that long-term soundness in those horses is often a problem. Therefore, when evaluating breeding animals - especially stallions, who can have an enormous impact on the registry - they consider not only performance potential, but also the long-term effect on the breeding base of allowing a horse with a particular conformation “trait” to breed on. (There were some Holsteiner breeders who used to post here who often tried to express this same sentiment - i.e., just because a horse is a successful competitor doesn’t make it a good breeding candidate.)
