Strong pony

[Court.louise]

My new loan is very strong, best ridden in a Tomthumb with a highly experienced rider. He cant be ridden in a tomthumb anymore due to a rider cutting his mouth open with it because of how thin it was when she was trying to hold him back. He has been tried in martingales, all nose bands and over 10 bits. He is only a 13.3hh cob but can jump to 1.45 with ease so he is expected to be strong! Any exercises to get him to listen to my seat more than my hands and any exercises that will collect him more?

[goodhors]

Back to basics, teach him to give to the bit, not lay on it. In a pulling contest between his mouth and your hands, you will lose. He does not appear to understand pressure is for him to give to, so you need to teach him that. Nothing to do with seat, you are not able to “sit him slow” because he has not been trained to understand the signals. Same with mouth pressure. He has no clue what pressure/pull means, just hurts, so he gets more anxious, pulls harder.

I SURE would not let whoever cut his mouth ride him again! They are also clueless, have hard, heavy hands on the reins, not “giving and soft” hands. Curb bit like a Tom Thumb is harsh on an untrained horse with a heavy-handed rider.

Going back to basics, teach horse to give to rein and bit pressure, follow the leading rein. Release when he give to pressure, that is his reward! Make it obvious, throw the reins away at the least little " give to rein pressure" so he notices the change/reward! With no release of bit pressure, why should he bother giving? No reward in it for him. Painful mouth pull stays the same if he is good or bad!!

[Willesdon]

Long reining is common with small ponies

[Edre]

Quick comment: just because a horse (or pony, in this situation) can jump bigger fences “with ease” does not mean they can be “expected to be strong” in the bridle. This is a training issue, horse issue, or a rider issue (or an ‘all of the above’ issue).

It sounds like this pony could benefit from a complete back to basics approach as @goodhors mentions above. I, frankly, would not be jumping this pony until there are brakes installed.

Now to do that, appropriate professionals & the rider need to assess - does the pony not understand yielding to pressure, or does the pony choose not to yield to pressure. These are two very separate things: the equine that is “educated” and objectively should know (but doesn’t, for a variety of reasons) is a challenge. The equine that simply doesn’t know, all involved should strip it down to basics and approach the issue like bringing a green horse along - teach them what it means.

For the horse that “knows” (but ignores their knowledge): make sure pain isn’t an issue. They may not give to contact because their mouth hurts (bit, teeth), there could be a back issue, a hock issue, or any other form of body-soreness. Many equines will “run away” from pain - if they are uncomfortable, they can get strong in the hand and no amount of appropriate schooling will address the root cause of the ‘strong pony’ issue: that the pony is in pain.

Now, once pain or other physiological issues are eliminated, it becomes a situation where you just need to strip it down to basics and emphasise what pony isn’t permitted to get away with. If possible, involve a very competent dressage (or flat) instructor.

Changes within the gaits can help refine education of the halfhalt. Use cavaletti to help back a horse off naturally - and take the opportunity to give with your hand. If a rider never give with the hand, many horses will never accept contact and soften, because it’s a constant cycle of pulling and strength. To get a horse to “come back”, you have to first allow them to go forward. Honestly, with a ride like this (once pain is eliminated from the equation, and neither of your topics have indicated to me that there has been much consideration to this possibility - lots about different pieces of equipment, but there may be some body soreness somewhere) I would personally just strip everything to the basics. Soft, mild bit. Minimal “extra” gear. Ride at the walk until you “graduate” from the walk - changes within the gait at the walk and transitions from walk to halt to walk again. Use things like turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand, and leg yields within the walk to both change the balance of the gait and create some whole-body suppleness (which could help with the contact issue). Oftentimes, strong horses can be stiff and bracing somewhere (poll, throatlatch, or shoulder are the three primary points of “locking” against a rider I see, though there are others). Inviting them (and allowing them) to be more supple can help take the “tug-of-war” out of the equation.

[x-halt-salute]

@Edre has great advice, and I hope you heed the words “appropriate professionals”.

Given what you’ve said in another thread about only having ridden for a couple of years in weekly or fortnightly lessons, I’d recommend that you let someone with more experience work to build the pony’s trust again (having his mouth cut open by someone hauling on a strong bit is probably going to interfere with his ability to trust the rider) and take him back to basics.

[Scribbler]

OP is this the pony that in another thread today you said you had no chance to try out yet because of various life circumstances?

Which is it? You are riding the pony and he can’t go in a Tom Thumb, or you are waiting to try out the pony who can only go in a Tom Thumb?

In your other post you come across as an advanced beginner. I think it is overly ambitious to think that you can retrain the horse to listen to your seat from internet advice.

You need a competent coach and trainer in the mix. You are unlikely to be able to fix a headstrong pony on your own. Also do you have the owners permission to do so?

As far as the contradictions in your story, the mostly adult members of COTH really want to be helpful but we do get cranky when posters seem to be making things up as they go along.

Be as honest as you can about your situation and you will get the best advice.

[Rackonteur]

@Court.louise

My new loan is very strong, best ridden in a Tomthumb with a highly experienced rider. He cant be ridden in a tomthumb anymore due to a rider cutting his mouth open with it because of how thin it was when she was trying to hold him back. He has been tried in martingales, all nose bands and over 10 bits. He is only a 13.3hh cob but can jump to 1.45 with ease so he is expected to be strong! Any exercises to get him to listen to my seat more than my hands and any exercises that will collect him more?

No horse is best ridden in a Tom Thumb, period. It is one of the worst bits around. And no truly experienced rider would ever put a horse in one.

I don’t know where you are or who you ride with, but please, please find yourself a trainer who is worth the money that lessons cost. Please.

[SuzieQNutter]

Back to basics and remember that it takes two to pull. You don’t jump until you have a soft horse who is listening to you.

[AppaloosaDressage]

Someone mentioned it above, but stick to lots of walk - halt transitions on a circle then the long side in a mild bit until you can do these on a loose rein. Don’t let him invert and hollow, that will be bad for everyone. Definitely find a professional to coach you two through this or have them ride the horse at first.

[cloudy18]

Is the OP from the U.S.? Tom Thumb bits are a sort of snaffle in other countries.

[x-halt-salute]

@Rackonteur

No horse is best ridden in a Tom Thumb, period. It is one of the worst bits around. And no truly experienced rider would ever put a horse in one.

Amen!

[eclipse]

@cloudy18

Is the OP from the U.S.? Tom Thumb bits are a sort of snaffle in other countries.

Reading her other post, I’d say she’s from England, or maybe Australia! The terms fortnight, yard, etc are dead giveaways.

Op…I’m confused, in your other post, you state you haven’t ridden much lately and that you are not leasing yet and make no mention of someone giving this horse a sore mouth. You also state you are being made to ride this pony, but in this post , you are leasing and others are riding? Honestly, reading your other post, it seems you need to step back and find a place that will give you GOOD lessons on an appropriate level pony. You really will progress faster! A good trainer recognizes when a student is over mounted and struggling…it’s nothing to be ashamed of, it happens to every rider. Stronger and stronger bits just makes a stronger horse if the riders hands and aids are not refined enough, not every horse can go in a plain snaffle, BUT as a bits severity goes up the riders hands have to be that much better and the legs that much better too!

[SuzieQNutter]

In Australia a Tom Thumb bit is a mild snaffle bit. I believe in America it is a harsh curbed bit. Does the bit have a chain?

[NoSuchPerson]

@Rackonteur

No horse is best ridden in a Tom Thumb, period. It is one of the worst bits around. And no truly experienced rider would ever put a horse in one.

.

Tom Thumb means different things in different countries and different disciplines. I assume you’re talking about the western bit called a Tom Thumb in the US. Based on the language in her posts, I don’t think the OP is in the US and I bet she isn’t riding western, either.

In the H/J world, a Tom Thumb is a pelham with a short shank, like this: https://marystack.com/ecopure-mullen-tom-thumb-pelham-bit/

Here’s a Tom Thumb ( type of snaffle) from an Australian tack shop: http://www.newmarketsaddlery.com.au/tom-thumb-bit-stainless-steel/

Here’s yet another type of Tom Thumb from a tack shop in the UK: https://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=566

And the western bit called a Tom Thumb is very, very far from being “one of the worst bits around.”

[MissAriel]

An Austral![](an tom thumb vs an American tom thumb:
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx4xXxnfRlhAnpjdf23O5EdWstGur0CU1AgNnqvDPrljrCez0g)
vs [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOxVno1dAOeUxowstZvXQjT2GapqGnkG-f-25CRNHbqYzmzy5jvQ)

It would be helpful to know for certain which one the OP is using before offering too much in the way of condemnation or bitting advice.

@SuzieQNutter: in America the tom thumb is a quite harsh curb bit, although due to the break in the mouthpiece some erroneously call it a snaffle and think it is a mild bit. I have also seen it used (incorrectly) without the curb chain too, which is even worse, since they are often sold without the chain. :no: When (g) you don’t know what (g) you don’t know.

[SuzieQNutter]

[quote="![](issAriel,post:15,topic:454971"]

An Australian tom thumb vs an American tom thumb:
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx4xXxnfRlhAnpjdf23O5EdWstGur0CU1AgNnqvDPrljrCez0g)
vs [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOxVno1dAOeUxowstZvXQjT2GapqGnkG-f-25CRNHbqYzmzy5jvQ)

It would be helpful to know for certain which one the OP is using before offering too much in the way of condemnation or bitting advice.

@SuzieQNutter: in America the tom thumb is a quite harsh curb bit, although due to the break in the mouthpiece some erroneously call it a snaffle and think it is a mild bit. I have also seen it used (incorrectly) without the curb chain too, which is even worse, since they are often sold without the chain. :no: When (g) you don’t know what (g) you don’t know.

[/quote]

Sheesh. Totally off topic but I only learned from hubby the other day that a radiator in a car is sold without the cap. WT?

[NoSuchPerson]

@MissAriel

in America the tom thumb is a quite harsh curb bit, although due to the break in the mouthpiece some erroneously call it a snaffle and think it is a mild bit. I have also seen it used (incorrectly) without the curb chain too, which is even worse, since they are often sold without the chain. :no: When (g) you don’t know what (g) you don’t know.

In America, among people who ride western, the Tom Thumb is a leverage bit with a jointed mouthpiece and short, usually straight, shanks that swivel. People have become convinced that it is an evil bit primarily because of something Mark Rashid once wrote about how awful it is. Because of his celebrity, his opinion has been repeated by the multitudes and among many has come to be accepted as gospel. Is it the best bit? No. Do I use it? No. Is it a good transition bit, like it’s often advertised? Not especially. Is it a “quite harsh bit”? No. No more then many other bits people use and, like most any other bit, is more harsh in uneducated hands.

In America among people who ride hunt seat, the Tom Thumb is a pelham bit with a mullen (metal or rubber) or jointed mouthpiece and very short shanks that swivel. It’s a fairly mild bit, great for a horse that needs just a bit more than your basic snaffle. It’s not a “quite harsh bit,” either, although, like all bits, can be in uneducated hands.

[BWP]

@cloudy18

Is the OP from the U.S.? Tom Thumb bits are a sort of snaffle in other countries.

I reckon the Uk, given other posts the OP has made. A Tom Thumb here mostly refers to a specific gag type cheekpiece.
https://www.premierequine.co.uk/tom-thumb-with-copper-lozenge-c2x25252278

[Foxtrot_s]

We found in Pony Club, that in PPG ponies often got strong because of the speed and lack of riders not being so good at training at that age. Lessons helped. But what I did offer was to reduce the bit - go softer, or use one of those little furry hackamores. I’d explain that a lot of the games were designed to be mini lessons for the ponies, stops, wait, go, slow,
take to being vaulted on, etc.

I also had a TB mare that I hunted - big,bold girl, but speedy. She got angry and then ran through pain - again, a milder bit worked for her.

[x-halt-salute]

@NoSuchPerson

In America, among people who ride western, the Tom Thumb is a leverage bit with a jointed mouthpiece and short, usually straight, shanks that swivel. People have become convinced that it is an evil bit primarily because of something Mark Rashid once wrote about how awful it is. Because of his celebrity, his opinion has been repeated by the multitudes and among many has come to be accepted as gospel.

Eh, some of us have never heard of Mark Rashid, probably don’t associate with anyone who does know who he is, and still, independently, think an American tom thumb is a ghastly bit.

Sounds like OP is in UK. I’m not convinced that anyone who cuts a horse’s mouth open with a British tom thumb (gag) bit is a highly experienced rider any more than I would be if someone did that with an American tom thumb bit. The moral of the story still seems to be that someone tried to fix this horse’s issues by upping the bit pressure rather than improving the training.

I remain of the opinion that the pony needs professional help and OP needs a more suitable mount.