Strong pony

[MissAriel]

@NoSuchPerson

In America, among people who ride western, the Tom Thumb is a leverage bit with a jointed mouthpiece and short, usually straight, shanks that swivel.

In America among people who ride hunt seat, the Tom Thumb is a pelham bit with a mullen (metal or rubber) or jointed mouthpiece and very short shanks that swivel.

These are two quite different bits in their use, despite similar names and shanks that swivel.

The mullen pelham can’t create the action on the tongue and roof of the mouth the way a jointed bit can.

Secondly, the pelham is either used (typically) with either two reins or a single converter. With two reins the rider can change the amount of direct rein vs leverage used. With the converter the effect of the shank is somewhat muddled, but still probably less than a single rein on the shank as in the western version.

[NoSuchPerson]

@MissAriel

These are two quite different bits in their use, despite similar names and shanks that swivel.

Of course they are. That was the point. You claimed that in America, a Tom Thumb is one particular type of bit. I replied to point out that in fact, in America, the name Tom Thumb is used for two distinctly different bits.

[NoSuchPerson]

@x-halt-salute

Eh, some of us have never heard of Mark Rashid, probably don’t associate with anyone who does know who he is, and still, independently, think an American tom thumb is a ghastly bit.

Just because you have never heard of Mark Rashid doesn’t mean that he isn’t a point of origin of the vehement anti-Tom Thumb sentiment that circulates around the internet.

With respect to “ghastly bits,” do those of you who have spoken so strongly against the western Tom Thumb also consider the Argentine snaffle and the multitude of other western curb bits with jointed mouthpieces and skanks that swivel to be ghastly bits? If not, then why not? If so, then isn’t your real issue that you don’t like a curb bit with a jointed mouthpiece? And yet, I often see people here blasting the evil Tom Thumb, like it’s a unique type of bit with characteristics that aren’t shared by any other bits, which is simply not true.

[rhymeswithfizz]

I know this pony’s twin Very strong and thick cobb type, and VERY talented jumper. Also very, very smart. He can only go in a bit with a curb chain – kimberwick is OK, but a double jointed pelham (with two reins, NOT a converter) is best for him.

In anything without a curb chain, he is borderline unsafe as he will bolt for the gate, and a snaffle type bit just cannot stop him. Not kidding, he can do it even with a very strong professional trainer on his back. (a 4* eventer no less) He’s not anxious, he’s not confused, he’s just a very naughty pony who knows he is stronger than most people that get on his back.

No argument that this guy absolutely came with bad training which will take time to undo, but no amount of “just stop pulling and ride with your seat” can fix dangerous behavior in a spoiled pony. He needed brakes, period. This fellow is indeed in professional training, which may eventually undo some of his bad habits, but it will be a long long time before anyone tries him in bit with no curb chain.

[x-halt-salute]

@NoSuchPerson

Just because you have never heard of Mark Rashid doesn’t mean that he isn’t a point of origin of the vehement anti-Tom Thumb sentiment that circulates around the internet.

With respect to “ghastly bits,” do those of you who have spoken so strongly against the western Tom Thumb also consider the Argentine snaffle and the multitude of other western curb bits with jointed mouthpieces and skanks that swivel to be ghastly bits? If not, then why not? If so, then isn’t your real issue that you don’t like a curb bit with a jointed mouthpiece? And yet, I often see people here blasting the evil Tom Thumb, like it’s a unique type of bit with characteristics that aren’t shared by any other bits, which is simply not true.

I’m not arguing that Mark Rashit, whoever that is, hasn’t influenced some people’s views on tom thumb bits. But given what you said I thought it was worth pointing out that plenty of people have independently arrived at the conclusion that they are ineffective communication tools at best and an invitation for many riders to create significant confusion and discomfort at worst.

I’d personally never put an Argentine snaffle or any other similar bit in a horse’s mouth, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that jointed curb bits are all equally stupidly designed. Frankly, IME tom thumb is the target of more negative comments because it is particularly popular/common in parts of the U.S., not because some celebrity trainer singled it out. I’m not sure I’ve never actually seen anyone ride in an Argentine snaffle, to be honest, but I’ve witnessed lots of cringe-worthy use of tom thumb bits.

I’m sure you’ve observed trends in various parts of the equestrian internet that I’m unaware of, but not all of the tom thumb bit’s bad reputation stems from some celebrity statement or internet zeitgeist. And still none of what you’ve said changes my opinion that anyone who puts a horse in an American tom thumb or a British tom thumb in lieu of addressing fundamental training problems, and cuts the horse’s mouth with it, is not actually a ‘very experienced rider’.

[Scribbler]

I bought a Tom Thumb (western version) or my first horse as that’s what the trail ride string used on her. Within about a year I’d picked up the idea this was a bad bit (and it was also not allowed to be used in our local playday gymkhanas). I switched to an eggbutt snaffle and a mechanical hackamore.

This was almost 45 years ago.

[ThreeFigs]

I got educated on the unsuitability of the American Tom Thumb (Western style) bit many years ago, long before Mark Rashid came along. You put pressure on those reins, the horse gets not only the curb effect, but a nice jab in the roof of his mouth. Not good for direct reining due to the shanks. Not a good transition bit, IMO.

Of course, those of you who wish to use such a bit, knock yourselves out.

Seems the OP is talking about a 'different" Tom Thumb bit – but anyone who can make a horse’s mouth bleed needs some reeducation.

I dislike Argentine snaffles, curb bits with chain mouths and other such contraptions, too. Just to clarify.

[NoSuchPerson]

@ThreeFigs

You put pressure on those reins, the horse gets not only the curb effect, but a nice jab in the roof of his mouth. .

.

I dispute that claim. Take a Tom Thumb or any curb bit with a jointed mouthpiece You can even try it with a kimberwick that has a jointed mouthpiece. Wrap one hand around the mouthpiece. Take the other hand and pull back from the base of one shank like you’re pulling on one rein. What happens? The mouthpiece rotates down and back because the shank acts like a lever. In a horse’s mouth, it rotates down into his tongue, not up into the roof of his mouth.

About the only way to give a horse “a nice jab in the roof of his mouth” with a curb bit is to use one with a high enough port to rotate up into the hard palate.

If you want to see a bit move in a way to give a “nice jab in the roof of his mouth,” do the same experiment with a single jointed snaffle. When you pull back on the bit ring, the joint of the mouthpiece moves up, like it’s going to poke the horse in the roof of his mouth (the hard palate).

Lots of people think a single jointed snaffle pokes a horse in the roof of the mouth, but it turns out that isn’t true, either. Dr. Hilary Clayton’s work at Michigan State using X-rays and fluoroscopy showed what really happens.

And her studies have found that the action of a single-jointed snaffle is not a nutcracker effect, as has long been believed. What really happens is that, when you apply pressure to the reins, it pulls the joint away from the roof of the mouth, or hard palate, to compress the tongue against the bars of the lower jaw. Horses, it turns out, like the snaffle because they don’t like getting poked in the palate and because the tongue cushions their bars.

There are lots of things that “everybody knows” that aren’t actually correct.

Dr. Clayton has published several articles that can be accessed online. You can easily find them with a google search.

And to repeat myself, I don’t think the western Tom Thumb is a particularly good bit for several reasons. I just think singling out a Tom Thumb as a uniquely awful bit demonstrates an ignorance of bit mechanics.

[ThreeFigs]

You are entitled to your opinions and may use any bit you choose. I will never use a bit with both a shank and a jointed mouthpiece. Call me ignorant if you like. I don’t care. I’ve had horses go better in a double-jointed snaffle than in a single-joint and some who go well in a Mullen. I let the horse decide.

[Court.louise]

@Edre

Quick comment: just because a horse (or pony, in this situation) can jump bigger fences “with ease” does not mean they can be “expected to be strong” in the bridle. This is a training issue, horse issue, or a rider issue (or an ‘all of the above’ issue).

It sounds like this pony could benefit from a complete back to basics approach as @goodhors mentions above. I, frankly, would not be jumping this pony until there are brakes installed.

Now to do that, appropriate professionals & the rider need to assess - does the pony not understand yielding to pressure, or does the pony choose not to yield to pressure. These are two very separate things: the equine that is “educated” and objectively should know (but doesn’t, for a variety of reasons) is a challenge. The equine that simply doesn’t know, all involved should strip it down to basics and approach the issue like bringing a green horse along - teach them what it means.

For the horse that “knows” (but ignores their knowledge): make sure pain isn’t an issue. They may not give to contact because their mouth hurts (bit, teeth), there could be a back issue, a hock issue, or any other form of body-soreness. Many equines will “run away” from pain - if they are uncomfortable, they can get strong in the hand and no amount of appropriate schooling will address the root cause of the ‘strong pony’ issue: that the pony is in pain.

Now, once pain or other physiological issues are eliminated, it becomes a situation where you just need to strip it down to basics and emphasise what pony isn’t permitted to get away with. If possible, involve a very competent dressage (or flat) instructor.

Changes within the gaits can help refine education of the halfhalt. Use cavaletti to help back a horse off naturally - and take the opportunity to give with your hand. If a rider never give with the hand, many horses will never accept contact and soften, because it’s a constant cycle of pulling and strength. To get a horse to “come back”, you have to first allow them to go forward. Honestly, with a ride like this (once pain is eliminated from the equation, and neither of your topics have indicated to me that there has been much consideration to this possibility - lots about different pieces of equipment, but there may be some body soreness somewhere) I would personally just strip everything to the basics. Soft, mild bit. Minimal “extra” gear. Ride at the walk until you “graduate” from the walk - changes within the gait at the walk and transitions from walk to halt to walk again. Use things like turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand, and leg yields within the walk to both change the balance of the gait and create some whole-body suppleness (which could help with the contact issue). Oftentimes, strong horses can be stiff and bracing somewhere (poll, throatlatch, or shoulder are the three primary points of “locking” against a rider I see, though there are others). Inviting them (and allowing them) to be more supple can help take the “tug-of-war” out of the equation.

I certainly wasn’t planning on jumping him yet and was hoping for extra tips to help me training him to listen more. Thank you for your response.

[Court.louise]

@ThreeFigs

You are entitled to your opinions and may use any bit you choose. I will never use a bit with both a shank and a jointed mouthpiece. Call me ignorant if you like. I don’t care. I’ve had horses go better in a double-jointed snaffle than in a single-joint and some who go well in a Mullen. I let the horse decide.

I’ve rode him once and the bit choice wasn’t mine. Personally, if he were my horse and I had the knowledge then, I would have done more training with him rather than changing the bit. I can’t change that now so I’m looking to help and better what I have to work with. Thank you for your response.

[Court.louise]

@x-halt-salute

I’m not arguing that Mark Rashit, whoever that is, hasn’t influenced some people’s views on tom thumb bits. But given what you said I thought it was worth pointing out that plenty of people have independently arrived at the conclusion that they are ineffective communication tools at best and an invitation for many riders to create significant confusion and discomfort at worst.

I’d personally never put an Argentine snaffle or any other similar bit in a horse’s mouth, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that jointed curb bits are all equally stupidly designed. Frankly, IME tom thumb is the target of more negative comments because it is particularly popular/common in parts of the U.S., not because some celebrity trainer singled it out. I’m not sure I’ve never actually seen anyone ride in an Argentine snaffle, to be honest, but I’ve witnessed lots of cringe-worthy use of tom thumb bits.

I’m sure you’ve observed trends in various parts of the equestrian internet that I’m unaware of, but not all of the tom thumb bit’s bad reputation stems from some celebrity statement or internet zeitgeist. And still none of what you’ve said changes my opinion that anyone who puts a horse in an American tom thumb or a British tom thumb in lieu of addressing fundamental training problems, and cuts the horse’s mouth with it, is not actually a ‘very experienced rider’.

The very experienced rider is his owner and he listened to her well. The girl that cut his mouth was someone who loaned him.

[Court.louise]

@rhymeswithfizz

I know this pony’s twin Very strong and thick cobb type, and VERY talented jumper. Also very, very smart. He can only go in a bit with a curb chain – kimberwick is OK, but a double jointed pelham (with two reins, NOT a converter) is best for him.

In anything without a curb chain, he is borderline unsafe as he will bolt for the gate, and a snaffle type bit just cannot stop him. Not kidding, he can do it even with a very strong professional trainer on his back. (a 4* eventer no less) He’s not anxious, he’s not confused, he’s just a very naughty pony who knows he is stronger than most people that get on his back.

No argument that this guy absolutely came with bad training which will take time to undo, but no amount of “just stop pulling and ride with your seat” can fix dangerous behavior in a spoiled pony. He needed brakes, period. This fellow is indeed in professional training, which may eventually undo some of his bad habits, but it will be a long long time before anyone tries him in bit with no curb chain.

He is 18 and has had the same owner for 10 years. She got him from being abused and had to break him in again, herself. He has always been really strong by the sounds of it. I want to influence him more with my seat, of course in aid of my hands, because he seems to dislike the bit (probably due to inexperienced riders yanking on it and whatever abuse he may have had). I am aware I need to make him learn to ride on the bit and listen to rein aids but I need something which could potentially help me slow him, he’d still be listening to my aids (hopefully).
Thank you for your response

[Court.louise]

@x-halt-salute

@Edre has great advice, and I hope you heed the words “appropriate professionals”.

Given what you’ve said in another thread about only having ridden for a couple of years in weekly or fortnightly lessons, I’d recommend that you let someone with more experience work to build the pony’s trust again (having his mouth cut open by someone hauling on a strong bit is probably going to interfere with his ability to trust the rider) and take him back to basics.

I appreciate your response, but I have had 2x lessons a week for a few years only recently has been 1x fortnight. I believe I have enough experience to ride him especially alongside a really experienced rider as well as being taught. I am very light with my hands, which he prefers, so hopefully this works out for me. I have said since I rode him, I will not put myself or him in any kind of danger or me actually not being experienced enough to ride him therefor knocking my confidence, potentially worsening him with that obviously having an impact on his owner. I’m saying all of this now as a few people have mentioned maybe he needs more of an experienced rider.

[x-halt-salute]

@Court.louise

I appreciate your response, but I have had 2x lessons a week for a few years only recently has been 1x fortnight. I believe I have enough experience to ride him especially alongside a really experienced rider as well as being taught. I am very light with my hands, which he prefers, so hopefully this works out for me. I have said since I rode him, I will not put myself or him in any kind of danger or me actually not being experienced enough to ride him therefor knocking my confidence, potentially worsening him with that obviously having an impact on his owner. I’m saying all of this now as a few people have mentioned maybe he needs more of an experienced rider.

I’m glad you’re confident about your experience, but teaching a strong pony who’s apparently been subjected to riding-related trauma recently is a difficult proposition even for a very experienced rider (else the pony’s “very experienced” owner might have sorted his various issues out by now). But more importantly, it is not the sort of thing that tends to be a fun riding experience, especially if you don’t have an excellent professional working directly with the pony.

Many advanced beginner riders start to feel confident once they master things they recognized early on that they didn’t know … but don’t realize that what they’ve learned in a few years of lessons is just the tip of an iceberg of things they don’t know they don’t know. The way you describe this situation, the fact that you’re on an internet forum asking how to get a pony who seems to have some very fundamental training issues to listen to your seat, and the other post you made about not wanting to ride partly because the horses you’ve been on recently are not appropriate for you all suggest to an internet stranger that you might be in that danger zone of unknown unknowns.

I don’t say this to hurt your confidence, but because some of what you’ve said elsewhere suggests that the best way to build confidence and enjoy riding more is to find a horse that’s better suited to you than this guy. I suspect that others who’ve tried to suggest that the horse’s issues might be better handled by a pro are also hoping you’ll find a different situation that is more likely to set you up for success. I wish you luck, whether you settle for this situation or hold out for something more promising.

[S1969]

@Court.louise

I appreciate your response, but I have had 2x lessons a week for a few years only recently has been 1x fortnight. I believe I have enough experience to ride him especially alongside a really experienced rider as well as being taught. I am very light with my hands, which he prefers, so hopefully this works out for me. I have said since I rode him, I will not put myself or him in any kind of danger or me actually not being experienced enough to ride him therefor knocking my confidence, potentially worsening him with that obviously having an impact on his owner. I’m saying all of this now as a few people have mentioned maybe he needs more of an experienced rider.

Well, by all means, disregard all the advice you were given when you asked for advice.

[NoSuchPerson]

@ThreeFigs

You are entitled to your opinions and may use any bit you choose. I will never use a bit with both a shank and a jointed mouthpiece. Call me ignorant if you like. I don’t care. I’ve had horses go better in a double-jointed snaffle than in a single-joint and some who go well in a Mullen. I let the horse decide.

You’re still not understanding what I’m saying. Or you’re choosing to ignore it. I don’t know. I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.

My dispute is not with saying that you won’t use a shanked bit with a jointed mouthpiece. I have said, at least three times in one form or another, that I don’t think the Tom Thumb (or other shanked bits like it with jointed mouthpieces) is a good bit and that I don’t use it.

My dispute is that people, you included, continue to single out the Tom Thumb as a uniquely harsh bit and cite reasons for that, like that the Tom Thumb jabs horses in the roof of the mouth, that aren’t true. There are enough legitimate reasons to not use a Tom Thumb that nobody has to make up incorrect ones.

[ThreeFigs]

NSP, I totally understand what you’re saying. I just happen to disagree with your opinion. The American Tom Thumb is not the only bit I dislike. I do not favor any shanked & jointed bit. You admit don’t use it or like it, so why are you working so hard to disabuse me of my opinion?

I ride dressage and there are several bits that are not allowed in that discipline for competition. Other disciplines (Western, Saddle Seat, Endurance) all have their favored bits or bit combinations. Tom Thumbs type bits are not allowed in dressage. Happy now?

[eclipse]

Op…please explain why in your other thread you’d rather ride a pony called “Tess” than this one, but on this thread there is no mention of these “nerves” you are having? Honestly, it sounds like you are either not as confident as you are portraying yourself here and if, as you state in the other thread, Tess is not available to ride as it’s a riding school, then this pony is a lesson pony not a lease! Is it just that, really, he’s a perfectly fine school pony for a more advanced rider and you’re just not at that level yet? (And there’s nothing wrong with admitting that). This would also be why you have no say in bits…schoolies go in what’s provided, a once a weeker might have some “grand ideas” …Colour me confused!

[NoSuchPerson]

@ThreeFigs

NSP, I totally understand what you’re saying. I just happen to disagree with your opinion. The American Tom Thumb is not the only bit I dislike. I do not favor any shanked & jointed bit. You admit don’t use it or like it, so why are you working so hard to disabuse me of my opinion?

I ride dressage and there are several bits that are not allowed in that discipline for competition. Other disciplines (Western, Saddle Seat, Endurance) all have their favored bits or bit combinations. Tom Thumbs type bits are not allowed in dressage. Happy now?

I see no evidence that you do, in fact, understand what I’m saying.

I’m not trying to disabuse of anything other than to convince you (and others) not to claim that the Tom Thumb does things, like jab a horse in the roof of his mouth, that it does not. That isn’t my opinion, it’s straightforward bit mechanics.

None of the other stuff that you said in the post that I have quoted here has anything at all to do with the point that I seem to be failing to make.