Stronger Bit?

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=cloudy18;4000195]
She had her teeth done last year and will again this year when the vet comes to do Coggins. I honestly don’t think it’s her teeth. I think it’s a riding/training issue combined, and if people tend to agree that my snaffle should do the job, then I will stick with that, or possibly try a hackamore to see if that offers any improvement. Lessons for sure so someone else can watch.[/QUOTE]

Can you grab a lesson or two from somebody, to help you out on what you’re supposed to do when she’s being unresponsive? That would probably be a better investment than a new bit, to be honest.

My suggestion for a hackamore, however, still stands. If you pick one with short shanks, and don’t use an overly tight curb strap/chain, it’s worth a try. :yes:

[katarine]

Good deal on the teeth, then. Now one thing about snaffles is they ought to be on browband bridles, not one of the western-type one ear bridles. Browband bridles are more stable on the face and will help that snaffle be stable in her mouth. A strap of leather as a curb chain, per se, will also help you keep the snaffle in her mouth.

Near term, using a cavesson adjusted snug- not tight- snug- will help her keep her mouth shut, and the bit in her mouth. If your bridle is too loose, and that bit is swimming in her mouth, pulling it through is very easy to do. I’ve helped owners who had bits adjusted so low the joint of the snaffle was just about rapping the back of their front-most teeth. oops. Might want to tighten that up, folks LOL.

here’s an article with some pics that depict what I’m suggesting regarding a set up of a well adjusted snaffle, rope cavesson, and some info on suppling a horse, too.
http://westernhorseman.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=886&Itemid=77

A broke western horse ought to be guidable into a spiral of circles in both directions, from let’s say an 80’ trotting circle gradually down to a 20-25’ trotting circle, and back out, with a feather touch on a floating rein or better yet a suggestion of a turn, supported by a stable inside leg and a driving outside leg to help shape that circle. That rider’s hips and shoulders and line of sight all help shape those circles too. That’s what you’re aiming for, at least in part.

[pj1]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;4000332]
My suggestion for a hackamore, however, still stands. If you pick one with short shanks, and don’t use an overly tight curb strap/chain, it’s worth a try. :yes:[/QUOTE]
This IS certainly worth a try. THe first competitive ride I took my mule to was awful. He ran most of the whole thing. Got him a fairly mild hack and the next ride he was near perfect. He wore a hack there after.

[Auventera_Two]

Agreed that trying the hack is a great suggestion. One of mine hated every kind of bit I gave her, but she goes very well in a Little S hack.

[cloudy18]

It is a browband bridle, I don’t like the one-eared headstalls. I don’t think the bit is really low, and the guy watching yesterday probably would have commented if he thought so. I think she needs more flexion work, and she has moments where the stubborness really kicks in and she fights it. When this guy suggested a curb she was wanting to trot and I wanted to walk. I was trying to slow her with my seat and hands, and she was opening her mouth. And when I would try to turn then, she would fight that, and sometimes open her mouth.

The hackamore would be worth a try though, as well as a cavesson or noseband. Now what are the main differences in the S hack vs the English hack? I know looks-wise, but other differences?

[Manes_and_Tails]

This is exactly the kind of problem you don’t fix with a curb. It’s easier for a horse to brace against the curb.

You need to work on flexion, which I only really know how to do English, but part of the key is to keep the neck flexible so that she’s not bracing against the bit. Don’t pull steadily against her…release and then pull.

I assume that when the bit went through her mouth you were doing a one rein stop?

[Guilherme]

I don’t the hack is going to give you any help, here. The pressure from a bit is crisp and clean and clear; the hack pressure is more difuse and subject to misinterpretation. If flexion and response to the cues and aids is the issue then the hack won’t help; it could even make the situation worse.

The horse has learned to “fight” the bit and has won enough times to make the fight worthwhile. You’ve got to change the horse’s mind about fighting. First, don’t give them a reason to fight (stay light in the hand and use as much seat and leg as you can). Second, if they push the fight (and sometimes they will) then “play” them like a fish, don’t get into a “tug of war.” They will always win a pulling contest; you’ve got to prevent that win.

For safety, do this basic work in a restricted area when you’ve got a corner you can use if you need it.

In all of this timing is critical. As soon as the horse gives to the bit, even just a tiny amount, reward the effort. Again, you’re working with an older horse with some experience. Replace the bad experiences with good ones to the best of your ability.

Good luck with the project.

G.

[Sithly]

@Shadow14;4000066

Seems for another post that the Man from Snow River and Return to Snowyriver are factual. Also look at the movie Austrailia.
What do all of them have in common??
Snaffle bits and horses that throw their heads up when asked to stop. Every one. You don’t get that with curbs. There is no escape from throwing the head up so the horse doesn’t learn the annoying habit.

Heh. Ever watched anything on the “Western” cable channel? Every horse ridden by a ham-handed actor throws its head up, regardless of bit. Almost all of the cowboy movies feature horses in curbs, throwing their heads up.

I have no problem with curb bits (I even use one occasionally just for fun), but to say that snaffle bits cause high-headedness is ridiculous and wrong. Bad hands do that.

[dreamswept]

[QUOTE=cloudy18;4000147]
I just know that when I go to take lessons it’s quite possible they will recommend someting, and I’d like a little input. A book says stick with snaffle, someone says curb, someone says hackamore. Just looking for ideas/opinions.[/QUOTE]

I rode my Haflinger pony last year in a French link full cheek snaffle. He was good most of the time, but when he wanted to be a butthead, he could really be a butthead. A lot of it was a training issue, but he’s got that strong little neck and big enough head that he could really brace against the snaffle bit and just tune me out. My problem wasn’t actually that he was throwing his head or anything, it was mainly he was trying to keep it down low to graze. Brakes definitely wouldn’t be the issue.

Fast forward to this year and the grass growing nice and green, and it just became a nightmare to deal with this guy. Walking while grazing … he sure could do it. And kicking him didn’t do any good. I talked to a few people because I was really adamant about staying with a snaffle bit because you know how we’re all told that snaffles are kind mild bits, and every horse ought to go in a snaffle. Well, the folks on my Haflinger mailing list said I was being silly. That not every horse can go in a snaffle, and a snaffle might be worse to use because you constantly have to be on their mouth rather than giving a single clear signal and then backing off.

So I switched him to the english hackamore. It’s got enough bite when I need it, I can keep my hands very soft and light in it otherwise, and we’re working on the training aspect of the issue. So far, he’s gotten it into his head that he can’t drop his head to graze whenever he wants to.

It’s worth a try, certainly.

[LookinSouth]

@Shadow14;3999656

No way openning the mouth avoids a curb bit wearing a curb strap. the lower jaw is pinched between the bit and the curb strap.
Openning a mouth is also not going to avoid the snaffle. You want it againt the lower bars of the mouth. All the horse has to do is raise it’s head and the bit rests against the teeth and the horse has avoided the bit. Mouth tied shut of not the head can still come up and thus put the bit on the teeth and not of the sensive bars.
A running martingale keeps the bit on the bars, adds leverage for when the horse ties to raise it’s head. the curb adds leverage and the curb strap keeps the bit on the bars.

I disagree. Believe what you like but there are many, MANY riders whose horses go completely different in a Figure 8 versus a plain cavesson. It is the simplest, mildest change you can make in regards to tack change.

I would never encourage a rider who is having the issues described here to go to a curb bit w/o seeking the help of a pro first!

I also disagree that the horse can’t throw it’s head w/ a curb bit or that a running martingale WHEN PROPERLY ADJUSTED is going to add any more control for this rider. Apparently you have never witnessed unskilled riders using either piece of equipment. I have.
A running martingale should be adjusted so that it only comes into to play when the horse lifts it head up fairly high, otherwise the martingale is pulling down on the reins which means its pulling on the bars. A horse can still lift it’s head up considerably with a running when it’s properly adjusted. The reason why they use them in the Jumpers is because the running allows the horse to lift it’s head high enough to see a distance over the bigger jumps where the standing will not. It adds just enough control to prevent the horse from lifting it’s head uncontrollably high.
Your theory about adding control when the rider takes up the reins is ridiculous. No one goes around the Jumper ring with a slack contact. You don’t see anyone in the GP with their horses head tied down using a running…defeats the purpose. It also won’t help with a horse that opens it’s mouth.

I fail to see how a PROPERLY ADJUSTED running martingale would help this situation in any way, shape or form.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=LookinSouth;4001369]
Your theory about adding control when the rider takes up the reins is ridiculous. No one goes around the Jumper ring with a slack contact. You don’t see anyone in the GP with their horses head tied down using a running…defeats the purpose. It also won’t help with a horse that opens it’s mouth.

I fail to see how a PROPERLY ADJUSTED running martingale would help this situation in any way, shape or form.[/QUOTE]

I thought we were talking about trail riding and yes I ride with total slack reins on trail and nearly anywhere else too. I do not keep contact with my horses mouth, I leave him alone and only pick up the rein to clue him. I also beleive in heavy reins, good 3/4 inch wide ones so all I have to do is pick the rein up, the horse feels this and responds to rein weight alone.
I have experience with problem horses and find a running martingale adjusted so a straight line between the horses mouth at normal head carriage and the riders hands works best. If the horse throws his head up the running martingale pulls it down on the bars and with TRAIL riding you are not on the mouth, slack reins and only take up the slack when the horse is not listening.
But why not let people experiment, give things a try, don’t listen to everyone and do your own thing. People always think you have to go by a set rule. Forget the rules and just try, see if you like how it feels, if the horse responds better and then make up your own mind.
If you keep constant contact with a horse and ride ALOTT you will get tennis elbow over time and relaxing is the only way you will survive over long time.
If you fight a horse constantly it wears both you and your horse out and takes it toll…

[Auventera_Two]

@Guilherme;4000936

I don’t the hack is going to give you any help, here. The pressure from a bit is crisp and clean and clear; the hack pressure is more difuse and subject to misinterpretation. If flexion and response to the cues and aids is the issue then the hack won’t help; it could even make the situation worse.

The horse has learned to “fight” the bit and has won enough times to make the fight worthwhile. You’ve got to change the horse’s mind about fighting. First, don’t give them a reason to fight (stay light in the hand and use as much seat and leg as you can). Second, if they push the fight (and sometimes they will) then “play” them like a fish, don’t get into a “tug of war.” They will always win a pulling contest; you’ve got to prevent that win.

For safety, do this basic work in a restricted area when you’ve got a corner you can use if you need it.

In all of this timing is critical. As soon as the horse gives to the bit, even just a tiny amount, reward the effort. Again, you’re working with an older horse with some experience. Replace the bad experiences with good ones to the best of your ability.

Good luck with the project.

G.

On one hand I agree with you, but on the other I disagree. My QH mare was ridden in heavy/strong bits by other people and she had gotten SO resentful. She wouldn’t even open her chops to get the bit in - you’d stand there for 5 minutes trying to pry her jaws open. She would throw her head up, put it down between her knees. It was just sad.

After being run away with more than once, and having to do a one-rein stop to get her shut down, I tried the Little S Hack and she was a totally different horse. She was light and soft, happy, ears floppy and relaxed. Of course there was no drama to pry her poor mouth open for a bit. She’s gone in a hack ever since (about 4 years now.) I can ride her in a rope halter and she’s excellent. Put any kind of bit on her and she tries to run away to escape it. And yes, she has regular dental work with a full mouth speculum, preformed by an equine dentist. He says her teeth are beautiful, and rarely does anything to them. She doesn’t have wolf teeth or anything like that. That horse just detests a bit. My other mare has never had a bit in her mouth, and only goes in a rope halter or Little S. And the third mare goes in a twisted mouthpiece barrel bit with shanks. I hate it, I really really hate it. But I’ve tried a bucket full of different bits and none of them made her happy like that one does, so that’s what I’m using. I’m trying to find that same mouthpiece in a simple ring instead of with the shanks. If I can find that, I bet she’ll go fine in that and I can get rid of those awful shanks. They’re all different.

[cloudy18]

dreamswept, that’s similar to my mare. I actually thought she was doing pretty well on this ride, I had her turning when she wanted to catch her buddy and it wasn’t a big fight, but then on the way home and at other times she wanted to go, and when I would try circles I’d get a fight. She doesn’t so much throw her head as just ignore or brace, but other times she’s ok. But the mough gapes open, so I like the noseband idea as well as the English or S hack. She does not readily take the bit, but again that could be her stubbornness rather than a hatred of the bit. She also likes to snack, but I can pull her head up, it does a take some effort. That is a problem I am not worried about, however, bc I can catch her right at the start of the attempt.

[Guilherme]

Hacks can have their uses (mostly in horses with mouth pathology that precludes the use of a bit). The thing, here, is that the horse has been in lots of “tugs of war” and has apparantly won enough of them then it’ll “play the game.” Giving the rider even more power (with a hack or any other “power” device) will ultimately lead to a worse result as it encourages the rider to get heavy in the hand. Just what you don’t want.

IMO the OP needs to be videoed on the horse and then review the video. The lens doesn’t lie and doesn’t spare feelings, either. I suspect the root of the problem here is the rider, not the bit. So changing the bit will give, at best, an illusion of success.

I hope the OP does effectively assess themselves and the horse and succeeds in the program.

G.

[Icecapade]

Lots of answers…

I think best is physical (checked: good for you)

next is professional- shop around, not always a clear RIGHT answer.

Secondly a curb has its place, if YOU (general you there not OP specifically) know how to properly use it. Suggesting to just use it blindly is silly. Suggesting a snaffle is all that it takes blindly is just silly.

My stallion can be very headstrong when he wants, even for a little guy so he isn’t a raging whore if you will, but he braces very badly- inverts and its just like a 50 lb weight on my hands.

So I rode with a mullen mouth low port pelham on trails and snaffle in the arena. Fine dandy it was sooooo much easier. But I rode double reins and had been educated to ride a curbed bit with two reins and it was lovely. Soooo much less fighting.

I have been taking dressage lessons and switched from a ‘western’ style to a full dressage bridle and OMG what a difference a basic noseband makes. Its not cranked, I can fit a finger in all the way around at minimum (in all the ‘tight’ places), he still gaps, and will still invert and try to run away but it isn’t nearly as bad… And let me tell you, I switched back to another bridle w/ no nose band and HOLY S%%T. It was a different animal.

I now have down graded to almost exclusively a snaffle even with my trail riding, but if I feel the need have no problem switching back to the pelhem… loved the feel loved the reaction, but not ‘proper’ training for dressage so I try to stick with that as best I can.

=) I wish you the best of luck though, it takes patience regardless of the route you seek, which bare in mind may not always be the last one…

[LookinSouth]

@Shadow14;3999656

Openning a mouth is also not going to avoid the snaffle.

see icecapades post…

[LookinSouth]

you said…

[quote=Shadow14;4000066]

Alot of jumpers use a running martingale so when the rider applies pressure to the bit the horse can’t pull hiis head up to escape the bit and miss seeing the jump.

which is why I brought up the jumpers. I understand the purpose of a slack rein on trail. That said, if your horses head shoots up the second you go to take contact there is an issue with your HANDS.

Lots and lots of older horses are poorly trained and wearing big bits and nothing is going to help them except a more knowledgable rider.

true. so wouldn’t it be best for this rider to seek the help of a trainer rather than slap a curb in it’s mouth?

Snaffles cause high headedness where a light curb with a snap doesn’t.

bologne. tell that to the dressage board:lol:

[Icecapade]

[QUOTE=LookinSouth;4003824]
see icecapades post…[/QUOTE]

thanks? I think

I think something being overlooked a little … a horse can be avoiding above or BELOW the bit…

just because his head isn’t sky high doesn’t mean he isn’t still completely avoiding

so a curb won’t always help… it usually hurts the situation. same with a snaffle, avoiding is above or below.

[pj1]

[QUOTE=Icecapade;4004357]
thanks? I think

I think something being overlooked a little … a horse can be avoiding above or BELOW the bit…

just because his head isn’t sky high doesn’t mean he isn’t still completely avoiding

so a curb won’t always help… it usually hurts the situation. same with a snaffle, avoiding is above or below.[/QUOTE]

:yes::yes::yes: Right on!!

[merrygoround]

OP . You really did answer your own question when you said the problem was on your part. A lack of training/riding. All the riding in the world , and all the bits in the tack shop won’t solve your problem without a little training.