Exactly! And I second the suggestion of lunge or long-line work to install the verbal cue.
1 Like
I like the idea of a verbal cue. This may need to involve another trainer as I mentioned earlier. I’m not sure I lunge him effectively enough. I get the job done when he’s fresh and needs to play, but he’s pretty lazy on the lunge in general. For those of you who suggest this method, how well does it work?
I’m also trying to think about anything pain related, but can’t see how that’s driving this, especially since trainer so easily gets the transition. Oh and to trainer’s credit, she is a lovely soft rider and does not overdo it in training sessions. She believes that once he gives what she asks, he’s good. He looks amazing with her. He’s been checked out thoroughly (and has had SIs injected when we thought it would help in general not because of this issue) and this reaction shows up no where else. Once he canters, he’s happy to continue going forward. Friend today pushed him through the first transition and then he was great. For my part, I needed to work on not being grippy and have pissed off horses in the past so yes I will never be a professional. But I’m way past the point of being offensive as a rider and I do ride him well at this point. We need to meet each other in the middle.
Yes. This. Read up about neural fatigue in horses. Constant anything (leg pressure, contact, etc) will just get them to ignore it.
(Sorry, OP, slightly off-topic to your post, but I think it’s an important concept).
2 Likes
Sadly, yes. Even for flat work. My big gelding is an Irish sport horse, a breed known for being super laid-back, forgiving, and amateur friendly. However his sire line has a horse in it that is known for throwing horses that are considered pro rides. He is now 12, I’ve done all the training on him, and I would say this year is the first year I’ve ever been able to think to myself that I could just get on and walk around the arena and him be okay with it. He is very much on all the time, everything is a 10, and yes if I messed up he would not hesitate to let me know. This year I buckled down on myself because I decided to either ride to his level, or ride him to a point I could advertise him myself, and man I think I am riding better than I have in 15 years.
You know the “problem” is you, you don’t need to be paying somebody tell you that, do you? Wouldn’t it be better to give the money to somebody who can teach YOU how to fix it? Not just blame you?
When I recommend posters consider exploring other trainers, I am not implying current one is incompetent, abusive, dishonest, evil, a bad person or anything of the sort. Just that they cant get a horse or rider past a certain point. Some trainers are wonderful riders but cannot convey that skill to riders-or Don’t want their riders to be independent. While others are fabulous at turning out thinking, independent riders but just aren’t great riders who can hop on and fix it . Some can no longer ride and need clients to learn to be independent thinkers. Give this some thought.
Best trainers are thrilled when their riders can diagnose and problem solve without needing the trainer to get on and fix it, in fact consider having to do that a weakness in their teaching.
In this situation, trainer had other plans for this horse and herself and, honestly, may still be riding it as a horse she has goals for as opposed to developing you as an independent rider able to analyze and the horse into a partner for you. Just give that some thought, nobody to blame, no guilt, but not going to allow you to grow and develop as an independent rider…and independent riders still need competent coaching. Hope you understand what Im trying to say.
Far as canter “cues”…you know, we adults get so bogged down in theory we forget to ride the dam horse forward. Its all about forward. Thats the problem, not a secret code “cue”. I join those who simply would not tolerate this horse’s behavior but bet we all were taught how to block it from ever starting by trainers who taught us to THINK. And not by hopping on to fix it but not fix the rider, just blame them.
RM, you can do better there and need to. Its not all you here and your confidence is suffering, horse knows it too. These things go deeper then just training challenges, can ruin your sense of self worth.
Say this often, most of us on here are not speaking from a position of superiority. We speak because reading these posts is like looking in the mirror. We had the same issues and often learned the hard and expensive way to recognize when change is the solution, not self doubt and blaming our own inadequacies. Paid Pro should not be feeding that.
12 Likes
In theory. In practice, I often see huge differences.
1 Like
Every person who gets on a horse is training it. Horses are smart and will act one way with a rider and a different way with a different rider. Anyone who has ran a lesson program knows this because the lazy school pony who tried to loose their student today by rubbing on the rail would never try that trick with the trainer (and also somehow has energy when the trainer gets on).
So I know it’s hard but it is you who needs to get after him on this. It won’t matter if someone else does it for you, because your horse is smart enough to know the trick still works on you. Part of riding a horse is being able to deal with these issues, even when we really don’t want to or are afraid to.
I could give you a bunch examples of a horse pulling a trick with their owner, and me getting on to deal with it and that horse not trying it with me because that horse knows better. They know I will win. Make sure your horse knows you will win too.
1 Like
Also the rule of riding being broken in this thread is it is NEVER the horses fault.
Saying dobbins should not do this does not work. Dobbins only ever does what you train him to do or what you allow him to do. It is the rider who needs to change to change the horse.
5 Likes
Always be sure you are not overcomplicating. And if something is not working, don’t get stuck.
I had a young horse. He got sully when asked to canter. He would not really “buck” but try to put his head down and play. It was not about “cues” or where this or that seatbone was or some other refinement of aids. He did not want to canter.
I set up a small crossrail. Trot to cross rail, land cantering and canter away. Voila! We were cantering without fuss. That led to me being able to ask from walk or trot in time. In his horse brain, I got my way and he had to canter.
Perhaps at first, I was not riding as skillfully as some other person might, perhaps we had just gotten into a “thing” about it, but in the end, we had a nice transition.
4 Likes
I think the biggest problem may, in fact, be your lack of self confidence. A good trainer (of people, not just horses) would not get on and “fix” the problem every time the student struggles with something. They should assist you in solving it. The trainer has convinced you that you’re not good enough and I guarantee you are good enough and the horse can learn to canter from a non-perfect request to do so. You sound like a decent rider so I also am pretty confident you could give him a smack and insist he canter. Don’t worry about how pretty it looks - just get into canter and tell him “good boy.” Then repeat. Many times. Until it just becomes a non-issue. Stop reinforcing the horse’s idea that he only has to canter when the “perfect” aid is given by having the trainer “fix” it for you all the time. Know that you are a good enough rider to deal with this and solve this problem yourself.
All that said, if you’ve already injected the SI “just because” you should almost certainly consider looking at hocks or stifles. The horse may be “scared” enough of the trainer to not display his symptoms of discomfort or the perfect transition may be less uncomfortable and this is why the issues show up when you ride and not when the trainer rides.
10 Likes
PREACH!
Similar to this, my perfect pony who is built for comfort and not speed 
was having issues with the trot-canter transition (green pony), and my trainer set up four trot poles and ended it with a canter pole. Bam. Pony got the canter and learned the cue. We only had to do it a few times.
My thought was also saddle fit? The only time my gelding offered a crowhop was when he outgrew his saddle, and he was kicking out for canter transitions as well.
1 Like
It’s never the horses fault, but sometimes horses make bad decisions or think they can get away with something.
You should never punish a horse unfairly. But sometimes our horses choose to make a bad decision. Our goal as riders is to teach our horses to make good decisions. A horse who makes good decisions is a pleasure to ride. A horse that has been allowed or trained to make poor decisions is difficult or sometimes dangerous.
Always be fair. That’s the best thing we can do for our horses.
2 Likes
Nobody blamed the horse directly. Horses do what they are taught. Trouble is anybody who so much as snaps on a lead rope is controlling its behavior therefore training it how to behave. We all know rewarding bad behavior in anything or anybody reinforces the behavior. Most of us have learned the best correction is not to allow bad behavior to start, failing that, instant correction along with clear, positive direction of what to do. Going forward is usually the answer to attempts at bad behavior.
OP knows shes rewarding the bad behavior here but has not been taught how to feel it coming and act to prevent it and doesn’t yet have the confidence to deliver swift correction and redirect the horse. Thats OK, shes a working Adult and why shes paying a trainer to teach her how to think and problem solve.
The horse being a brat here is really not the problem.
This trainer teaches by getting on herself, fixing it temporarily and telling OP its her fault.
2 Likes
Sounds like a pretty typical problem to me. Several pre-adult and adult hunter riders in our barn have had problems with canter transitions due to balancing on their hands and not having an independent seat. Also being generally weak in the leg. Common stuff. Those problems and their horses essentially “having their numbers,” so to speak. These people are not bad riders and they do other things quite effectively. They give good effort and try hard to improve.
As someone said up thread, the horse has got to know that his rider means business. Some horses are smarter and quirkier than others and really enjoy a little messing with their riders. Can’t blame the poor things in most cases. Practicing asking for the transition without reins on the lunge and then eventually with a dressage whip and long spurs on the flat while grabbing mane or with the reins in one hand at the martingale such that there is no way they are pulling while asking for the transition has been pretty successful. Eventually they have been able to ask without the weaponry and without pulling back at the same time they are trying to get the horse to go forward.
I had a horse like that. He was probably always pissy if I did something subpar, but it particularly showed up in canter transitions.
One thing I did “wrong” (because I became anxious about the transitions) was to kill the power switch, and wind up asking him to canter with no impulsion.
Mostly if I rode him FORWARD into the canter, rather than IN PLACE into the canter, he was happier and more forgiving.
Dunno at all if this tip will help you, but if that might resemble your problem, consider it.
2 Likes
Be sure your AIDS are correct. Practice leg yield at walk and SITTING Trot. Leg Yield should get your horse on the Outer rein and wrapped around Inner leg. Ride down the 1/4 line in arena Leg yield to wall then go STRAIGHT Do that a view times. Then when that works ask for canter when you get to outside rail. Then center right into a circle. Trot. Reward. Get the canter ONE Time. Try this on one side until that lead is solid
Well unfortunately, everyone asks for the canter depart slightly differently.
the CORRECT aids are weight on inside seat bone, inside leg on at girth, outside slightly behind, release contact on inside rein.
That being said, there is a variety of methods horses have been taught. Figure out EXACTLY which aids your trainer is using. She might not be doing what you think she’s doing. Then either do what she’d doing exactly or train your horse to react to your aids by using your voice for a while. I recommend the CORRECT aids if you want to be precise.
Here’s an update: moved the horse to new barn and new trainer. Zero issues with new trainer with canter transitions, almost none with me at new place. It was almost magical. Asked from the walk and it was right there. He did get pissy once, but I was clearly over thinking and pressing 12 buttons at once. I think the beast was ring sour at previous barn and being fresher at new barn plus change of scenery helped enormously!
5 Likes
This can make a very big difference.
The first time I (5’2”) sat on a client’s (6’) horse and put my leg on to ask her to walk she kicked out, not in a mean way though, just clearly startled and confused. This was a massively tall & wide three year old WB who had only ever had the tall rider on her back though. It sounds as if you ride your horse regularly, so he really ought not be “surprised” by your leg touching him somewhere else.
