There was that one tweaker in the convenience store who used an axe.
“Oct. 9, 2018, 09:43 PM
We currently live in an era of neo-puritanism rampant. Like its predecessor, this too shall pass. There is a time for every season under Heaven.’”
Wow Men have been groping, tounging, etc woman in this industry for longer than I have been alive. Comments like yours are a serious part of the problem. Being called out out for crossing the line is not going away. I am sick to death of hearing how great some of these guys are now, that it was youth or so far in the past and they are good eggs and well liked. Well let me tell you something if it was an uncle in your family you would be on the 5pm news making sure that folks knew about his deviant ways. By my estimation a couple other “BIG” names are going to fall like chess pieces and so they should. Don’t get gropy and you won’t have a problem, seems simple enough!
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Safe sport or safeguarding protocols have provisions for this, although their application in riding might require some forethought.
The general rule is that it’s never one on one if the coach is a male and the athlete is a female minor. There must be another coach or official present and should be female. It’s ok to have the parent there too.
With male minor athletes, you also want two coaches present.
If a conversation is one on one, no closed doors.
So it’s manageable in say, a swim team situation but perhaps more difficult to ensure that others are present in an equestrian setting. The main thing is never isolating someone and having conversations in a open environment with a third party present.
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haha are calling Packy a troll? apparently you spend most of your time on the forums and not reading the Chronicle, otherwise you may have come across one of his columns… I believe there’s a recent one regaling his experiences at WEG.
At any rate, I agree with his comments.
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Um, or I know who Packy is and still think he’s trolling? That’s probably also possible, right? You understand that coth is an old Virginia publication and Packy is a long-time local fixture in horse sport, right?
and yet one can still absolutely and totally disagree with and be dumbfounded by his windmills.
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I’m sorry, I first competed in Eventing in 1980 and sexual harassment or abuse by men is not something that I would label as a “problem” in eventing. I’ve heard maybe two different rumors that seemed to have some merit, one was an incident in Pony Club in the late 1970s by a 20 something coach and an 18 year old Clubber. The other involved Mr. Black. But other than that? Nothing comes to mind over almost 40 years. Maybe I’m not one of the cool kids and I’ve just missed it, but I’ve worked with scores of men in the sport over the years and none of them did I ever have an issue with or ever heard a breath of scandal about.
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You missed it. By miles.
It’s ok to be a person who keeps themselves away from the “problems”. But be careful about judging generally by such exclusionary experience.
If Stuart goes down - that is, long suspension or a ban - there are others in eventing who should as well. And probably will.
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Please stop spouting this nonsense. The only time you are entitled to the presumption of innocence is when you are facing criminal charges in a court of law.
Sexual harassment and sexual abuse are not problems in eventing. They are problems in our society, which eventing exists within. Believing your personal experiences support the conclusion that it’s not a problem in our sport is a logical fallacy. It is simply not true.
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Seriously? I went to an event this weekend. I saw 2 males competing out of over 100 competitors. But hey, that experience can support no conclusion about any thing in our sport. Got it. I’ve competed for 40 years, ridden at the top levels with many of the top trainers at one time or another. But let’s be clear, if my experiences don’t support The Narrative surely “it is simply not true.” Do you Third Wave Feminist ever get tired of brow beating people because they have different expereinces? Sexual harassment and sexual abuse will only be a “problem” in our society for as long as it can be used as a tool to bring power to the correct people. Then it will be dropped like a hot potato–much to the detriment of real women who have real grievences.
Oh, one last thing, “Innocent until proven guilty” is part of our legal foundation because it is derived from our social mores. Just because it is inconvenient for you to respect the traditions of this society doesn’t mean the rest of us are obligated to abandon them.
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So because you saw 2 men at this event, men don’t event and therefore they can’t be predators? Look at the top of the sport, there are FAR more men than women. The issue is when you (not you specifically) believe that the actions you’ve seen are the only way things are. It’s a human trait, we tend to believe the things that have happened to us have happened to everyone. It’s just not true. I mean it’s demonstrably not true, whether you believe it to be true or not really doesn’t matter. That’s the awesome thing about facts.
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What about innocent until you know the facts? Someone can know the truth without going through a whole trial…
For example my ex bf tried to kill me. I knew he was guilty (obviously) and told everyone I could. I didn’t need to wait for him to stand in court and plead guilty and it be proven in the court of law.
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You said:
Someone else confirmed:
But you didn’t actually want to know if maybe you had missed it. Because your conclusion was:
No one is “brow beating” you because you have not had a negative experience in this industry. I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m personally delighted that you haven’t had a negative experience in this industry – every single person who is safe and enjoying themselves in equestrian sport is a win in my books. Personally, I rode with a male coach from the time I was a young teenager through my college years. I was alone with him all the time – I’d be doing night check and he’d be finishing his last horse, I’d get there early in the morning to help him feed, I’d ride with him in the trailer to events or schoolings when my parents weren’t available. It was before the days of cell phones but I’m sure if I’d had one I’d have been directly in touch with him. He never once laid a hand on me, acted inappropriately, made me feel uncomfortable, or did anything awful in any way. He was a significant role model in my life at a time when role models are critical, and he didn’t betray that trust. I haven’t had a negative experience in this industry either.
But. I know that you and I are the lucky ones. I know that little children everywhere are threatened to have their ponies taken away if they don’t keep quiet. I know that our Olympians made it to the podium despite horrific ongoing abuse. I know that ambitious young riders are manipulated into positions where they’ll lose everything – their client base, the stalls their horses live in, the very room they sleep in – if they dare refuse. It’s not that anyone is upset that you haven’t had a negative experience. It’s that we’re upset that other people do. Pretending that’s not the case because you haven’t experienced it personally won’t make anyone any safer.
This… I fear there is some truth to this. The incidents being discussed in the light of day right now are only incidents pertaining to people that are fairly convenient – people who are past their prime, people who are not at the very upper echelons, or people who (though they remain revered) are dead. It is important to shine a light into all the corners – so while it’s important to talk about the people we are talking about, it’s also important to talk about those that we may still count on as team riders, or those who have major sponsors in the sport. Winning medals means nothing if our riders are in danger.
Also, Ake, you rock. Every word you wrote is perfect:
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This. Sexual harassment and abuse is a societal problem, not an eventing problem or an entertainment industry problem. I’m not even sure I would believe a survey (if it was even possible to get an accurate one) if there was any industry or area within society with a higher percentage of harassment and abuse than others.
I suspect the problem is pretty evenly distributed across society. It’s just now become more visible and more visible the individual, the more visible the problem within that industry; for example, the entertainment industry. Harvey Weinstein is all over the news… probably will never see Stuar Black’s name in the news as most people will be ‘who’s that’? Doesn’t mean he gets to skate, just, to me means, the visible of what he has done is limited in scope.
Just because one doesn’t personally observe this type of behavior or one has not been a victim of this behavior doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It does.
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No one is refuting your experience or saying that it isn’t valid anecdotal evidence. The problem is the broad conclusion you have drawn based on n=1, using faulty inductive reasoning. I’m not trying to attack you or discredit your experiences, but maybe a simple example will help illustrate my point: [INDENT]
All cars I have seen in the US drive on the right side of the street. Therefore, all cars in all countries drive on the right side of the street.[/INDENT]
Concluding that all cars in all countries drive on the right side of the street because that’s your experience is not an exercise of logical thinking.
Also, a likely contributing factor to your experience of only hearing two rumors over 40 years is the fact that sexual assault is the most under-reported violent crime (DOJ’s National Crime Victimization Survey, 2016).
Research directly contradicts that statement. When 1 in 3 women will be a victim of sexual violence in their lifetime, that is an indisputable problem in our society (CDC’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 2017).
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I am curious on people’s opinions of these scenarios when it’s the student who instigates the affair with the trainer.
Growing up, I rode with an older male trainer who was rumored to have had relationships with adult students in the past. In my time with him, I did not see any signs of him treating any students (male or female, young or old) differently than any other. What I did see, on multiple occasions, was adult female students blatantly coming on to him. Now he may or may not have accepted those come-ons behind closed doors, that I can neither confirm or deny; however, I think the dynamics at play here are worth considering.
In this scenario, who is the guilty party? Is there a guilty party? Should the aggressor, ie the female student be held accountable for harassment? It’s murky…
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If you are in a position of power (ie: boss, trainer, teacher, etc) and take action on someones advances then you better be prepared for the potential consequences. Just say no, I don’t get involved with my students/clients/employees/etc.
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Agreed. But take minors out (as that’s always bad and a no no), and employer/employee context and that is were this safe sport seems wonky to me. While I personally believe a smart business move is don’t date students I’m not sure I agree with safe sport sanctions… seems like moral patrol. If you are talking two adults and not representing your country or a school… our sport is an individual sport and coaches/trainers are fungible. They don’t really have a power position IMO. I can enter any event and participate in this sport with or without them. So that is where I have an issue with how safe sport is applied…is there safe sport that applies to every golf pro or tennis pro (not teaching minors or a team)? I’m asking because I don’t know or wonder if they have addressed the issue.
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I don’t think safe sport relates to two consenting adults. This case is certainly not that, although some outsiders may think that is the issue, that is not what is being reported as the main issue here.
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Actually…it does. If you read what the pledge the USEF is requiring and Safe Sport website…it absolutely can apply.
Well I guess people better start deciding whats more important then. A piece or their career 
lol
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