Successful WB crosses with APHA blood? Marketability?

[Heinz_57]

Just curious if anyone has had or knows of successful crosses of WB with some APHA (or QH, I suppose) blood.

Plan B for my WB mare is to try and breed her again this year, if she is going to be out of commission for a while (currently slightly lame). And in my perusing of (mostly WB) stallions to choose from, I’ve run across a local-to-me APHA stallion that has gone through AWS approval (I know, NBD) and has a nice sporthorse build with an unbeatable temperament. I went so far as to go see him in person, and was rather impressed. I should also add that this particular stallion is nearly 50% TB blood, which may account for the more sport-type build.

I’m giving the idea some consideration, but wonder about the marketability of such a cross? Offspring could (would) be AWS registered, for whatever that is worth - and while the intention would be to produce something for my own enjoyment, I would still like to ensure that the market value is there in the event that selling became necessary.

[rosebudranch]

I’m curious what stallion?

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=rosebudranch;6823004]
I’m curious what stallion?[/QUOTE]

I’d rather not give specifics… I know it’s hard to say whether or not a particular cross would be successful without more detail about both sides, but I was hoping for some general insights into WB/APHA (or QH, I suppose) crosses. The particular stallion I looked at is not your typical representation of the APHA “breed”, IMHO.

[siegi_b]

What kind of a “warmblood” mare is she? Bloodlines?

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;6823022]
What kind of a “warmblood” mare is she? Bloodlines?[/QUOTE]

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1505424

rosebudranch, the stallion is not listed on the AWS website (which hasn’t been updated since 2011/12, it appears).

[RiverOaksFarm]

I’d be concerned primarily about the potential for throwbacks. The Paint stallion may have more of a “sport-type build”, but the stockhorse genetics are still in there.

I know someone who had a mare who was 3/4 Warmblood and 1/4 QH and looked/moved like a Warmblood. She bred this mare to a Warmblood stallion. The resulting offspring ended up looking and moving more like a QH than any Warmblood, even though she was only 1/8 QH. The poor mare was the poster child for throwbacks. As far as marketability, the owner sent her to me when she was 3 or 4 (I can’t remember) – getting people past the fact that she was 1/8 QH was a battle in itself. (And she had legit papers too, not AWS, because of her sire.) The owner ultimately gave her away.

I would personally not use Paint or QH in my own breeding program. Of course, in my situation I breed Friesian Sporthorses and you can’t get more than a COP if you use stockhorse blood, but concerns about the quality, throwbacks, and marketability would also be enough to stop me from using Paints or QHs even if it wasn’t frowned upon by the registry.

Just a “fwiw”, since you asked

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6823081]

Just a “fwiw”, since you asked :)[/QUOTE]

Oh, I did. And I’m fully prepared to hear the negatives, as those are the very same ones rolling around in my head. I perceive some stigma in sporthorse disciplines around horses with any paint or QH blood, which is why I asked. A crappy euro-registry WB still sells for more than a nice, but otherwise-bred horse. :lol: Not that I intend to breed a crappy anything, just an observation I’ve made of horses for sale recently.

[JB]

How much do you know about the stallion’s pedigree? The point about a “throwback” is a valid one. I’d want the stallion, as nice as he might be himself, to come from a fairly long line of sporthorse types, and to include a high % of TB blood.

I know he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, and “successful” can be very subjective, but Silverwood Farm’s State of the Art has Paint (spotted QH basically LOL) breeding - Dam was Paint x TB, and the Paint side had TB blood twice in the 3 gen pedigree.

Does the stallion have offspring yet? If so, have you seen them, and just as importantly, have you seen their dams?

Would you mind PMing me with the stallion? His name will not leave the PM, I promise

[RiverOaksFarm]

Heinz, is the main appeal the color? If so, what about Silverwood’s or Crestline’s pinto Warmblood stallions? I’ve used Sempatico twice in the past myself, and found Silverwood wonderful to deal with and the stud fees very reasonable, especially if you catch one of their “specials”. I sold one of my Sempaticos in-utero, and sold the other as a weanling. The weanling went on to earn his Elite Book status via inspection (Friesian Sporthorse), was the 4th highest ranked FSA for inspection/in-hand in 2012, and the owner also took him to a USEA FEH competition as a 2YO and he was the highest scoring horse presented. (Just some more “fwiw” re pintos, and Semptico.)

I also wanted to add – I wasn’t being gossipy talking about a client’s horse in my previous post, she’s cool with my sharing her experience to help others…

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=JB;6823169]
How much do you know about the stallion’s pedigree? The point about a “throwback” is a valid one. I’d want the stallion, as nice as he might be himself, to come from a fairly long line of sporthorse types, and to include a high % of TB blood.

I know he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, and “successful” can be very subjective, but Silverwood Farm’s State of the Art has Paint (spotted QH basically LOL) breeding - Dam was Paint x TB, and the Paint side had TB blood twice in the 3 gen pedigree.

Does the stallion have offspring yet? If so, have you seen them, and just as importantly, have you seen their dams?

Would you mind PMing me with the stallion? His name will not leave the PM, I promise :)[/QUOTE]

Stallion in question has nearly half TB blood, IIRC. He’s Indian Artifacts bred on top with a TB damsire on bottom. He does have babies on the ground, I wasn’t able to see any of them in person (only pictures).

I am (hesitantly!) PM’ing you.

[showjumpers66]

Years ago, I made two APHA / WB crosses. Both were with an APHA mare to WB stallions. One of the mares was primarily TB and that cross produced what you would expect from a WB/TB cross. The other mare was more classically APHA bred although she was a cute hunter type. I did end up with a very cute hunter type colt of obnoxious color. :LOL: I also had two Sempatico and two Palladio crosses. These crosses were much “sportier” than the APHA crosses.

Personally, I would feel that you would be breeding backwards. An APHA stallion will typically reduce the swing/elasticity/scope in the gaits as well as the quality/scope of the jump. Even if you have one that has the right type/movement, they have been bred for generations for qualities that make them very good at their job (i.e. stopping/turning quickly and quick bursts of speed) and you very well may see those conformation traits which do not lend towards swingy, elastic gaits and a scopey jump.

I found, also, that the market for colored foals is much more limited. The “wow” ones sell quickly, but the others seem harder to sell than their solid equals.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6823170]
Heinz, is the main appeal the color? [/QUOTE]

Good lord no. :lol: My mare is a grey, so probably not the first choice for anyone who wants a sure pinto. I haven’t had her DNA’d to find out if she’s homozygous grey, although that’s probably a good idea.

You’ve inadvertently discovered part of the reason I consider this stallion (other than liking him as a match in general). After a VERY spendy failed attempt at AI with this mare, a nice stallion who is local and offering live cover seems an attractive option. The SO and I have talked at length about the process and she runs a top notch operation, not some backyard mudlot.

Now, looking back, I got taken for a ride by my vet (who I won’t be using again). We started the process just after she’d cycled in May, put her on Regumate and then cycled her back in. She positively FLEW to a 29/30 follicle, fast enough that he was doing ultrasounds 2x a day to avoid missing the window. Did that for 3-4 days until she slowed down again and went back to checking her once a day until she was a 34/35 (IIRC, memory is fuzzy - I got married right around the same time). Inseminated 2x 12 hours apart just pre- and post-ovulation, put her back on Regumate and preg checked at 19 days and found nothing. I’m sure there were a few more steps to the process that I’ve forgotten, but the farm calls alone for 2x a day ultrasounds put me in the poor house. Now, I suppose he could’ve missed it and there’s a baby in there somewhere, but that seems unlikely. :lol:

That’s the truth. I’m afraid to run up another $2500 vet bill with nothing to show for it!

[rosebudranch]

I’m just curious my first homebred was an APHA/AWS stallion, with tb blood in there to my QH mare. I’m happy with the result, but he is going to stay a pony (his dam was only 14.3) but I’m ok with that, he has the awesome personality for a pony. This is him as a coming yearling (this was probably last April and he was a June baby) the second was may at his first show. I’m happy with what I got and got what I expected to get, but I completely agree with all of the above… It may a bit of a risk.

http://s1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb418/rosebudranch/?action=view¤t=421A112A-4F04-4332-9F0F-4BDAC0B45B65-6915-000005D7F20919BC_zpsdf37b65a.jpg&evt=user_media_share

http://s1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb418/rosebudranch/?action=view¤t=19B5CC2C-8141-4F3A-8031-57594402505C-6915-000005D7E3C58909_zps4c7ddc28.jpg&evt=user_media_share

[Kerole]

I realise I am not in your market (being half way across the world and all!) so this is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I LOVE a funky coloured horse and have bred a small number myself (in amongst the more usual solids) but I will not look at a horse to buy, or mare or stallion to use that gets its colour from QH or paint lines. Full stop.

Even if I took my breeder’s hat off for a moment, would I buy a part paint/QH riding horse? If I never intended to sell it then maybe. But it’s a small maybe.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=Kerole;6823276]
I realise I am not in your market (being half way across the world and all!) so this is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I LOVE a funky coloured horse and have bred a small number myself (in amongst the more usual solids) but I will not look at a horse to buy, or mare or stallion to use that gets its colour from QH or paint lines. Full stop.

Even if I took my breeder’s hat off for a moment, would I buy a part paint/QH riding horse? If I never intended to sell it then maybe. But it’s a small maybe.[/QUOTE]

I’m tossing this all around in my head, as I mentioned, so hearing things like this IS helpful.

[JWB]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6823081]
I’d be concerned primarily about the potential for throwbacks. The Paint stallion may have more of a “sport-type build”, but the stockhorse genetics are still in there.

I know someone who had a mare who was 3/4 Warmblood and 1/4 QH and looked/moved like a Warmblood. She bred this mare to a Warmblood stallion. The resulting offspring ended up looking and moving more like a QH than any Warmblood, even though she was only 1/8 QH. The poor mare was the poster child for throwbacks. As far as marketability, the owner sent her to me when she was 3 or 4 (I can’t remember) – getting people past the fact that she was 1/8 QH was a battle in itself. (And she had legit papers too, not AWS, because of her sire.) The owner ultimately gave her away.

I would personally not use Paint or QH in my own breeding program. Of course, in my situation I breed Friesian Sporthorses and you can’t get more than a COP if you use stockhorse blood, but concerns about the quality, throwbacks, and marketability would also be enough to stop me from using Paints or QHs even if it wasn’t frowned upon by the registry.

Just a “fwiw”, since you asked :)[/QUOTE]

Was that the BWP filly who’s price kept dropping and dropping? I agree- a cautionary tale about throwbacks. Nicely bred on paper but she did move like a little stock horse.

I think there are enough ammy friendly warmbloods with reasonable stud fees that there is no reason to go use stock horses.

Nothing against stock horses, but I wouldn’t use a little and handy warmblood to breed horses to chase cows, no matter how well the individual warmblood could do the job. If I wanted to breed a cutting horse, I would start with stock horse parents.

Somehow people get offended though when you say if you want to breed a sport horse, you need to start with proven sport horse blood.

[TKR]

Other than convenience and saving $ on the AI process, what does the stallion bring to the table for your mare other than an nice temperment? Do they match up in prototype? Have you looked at both critically and seen where he has strengths that could balance something your mare needs improved? Are all three gaits scopey and the kind that would do well in the competition arena you are breeding to follow? Does he really “bring it” in the specialness a stallion should? Has he competed or produced well and have his produce sold well? Does he have a “name”? When you “mix” pedigrees with so much difference, it becomes more of a crapshoot because the traits could come from anywhere and might not match up! IMO he doesn’t really offer enough to someone breeding for the hunter, jumper, dressage or event market, especially from a marketing standpoint. His lineage and your limited access to registries won’t help you in this. Those breeding for the Western disciplines tend to value the lower head set, and “slow legged movement” – the opposite of what we value. There are still some auctions going on that would give you access to a more suitable stallion at a lower stud fee and hopefully a better repro vet could get it done without so much $$. JMHO – good luck!
PennyG

[rugbygirl]

Significantly less marketable than a cross with a warmblood.

You might end up with a really nice horse, and sure, there is a market for Paint crosses and a market for nice horses generally…but it’s the much lower-paying market.

With all the money and stress of breeding, I probably wouldn’t go “convenient” unless you absolutely love this stallion and want to keep the foal for yourself. Or are happy making a low-dollar pleasure-type. I bred a horse who is (at best) a low-dollar pleasure type myself, and I adore her. I just don’t kid myself. Even if I compete her to 3’ and put her in a big name barn, the highest price she’ll EVER command is still less than what I ended up paying to breed her mother. She’s half draft, nice, but not going to break that $10,000 barrier in this market.

If you want marketable (at least in this part of Canada) you either breed FOR a stock horse, in which case, you breed your fancy, proven show mare to a very fancy, winning, big name stallion…or else you breed for a warmblood. While the two can sometimes combine to make a lovely horse, the markets for each type do not cross over. Warmblood people do not want ANY stock blood in their sporthorses.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=TKR;6823345]
Other than convenience and saving $ on the AI process, what does the stallion bring to the table for your mare other than an nice temperment?
PennyG[/QUOTE]

Without going into lengthy details, yes, I’m considering them as a match and am not just looking at convenience/out of pocket cost. I’m not offended at all by anything said here - better to face scrutiny now than after a baby is on the ground. Nothing is set in stone; I’m considering breeding her as a possibility IF she does not come sound in another month or two, and thought this stallion was interesting to consider. It also makes Mr. Heinz happier if he thinks all the horses have a “purpose”… :lol:

I would be interested in hearing of any other suggestions for a good match for the mare (whose pedigree is linked a few posts up). Her strong points include temperament, a good shoulder/neck/head and slightly above average gaits. She doesn’t have as much suspension as is trendy these days, so that could be improved upon and she could use a bit more depth to her hip/stifle/hock, she’s a little on the straighter side of things. She’s got good bone and great feet, but could benefit from a little more length of leg. She’s right at 16h and isn’t particularly wide or narrow, if I had to choose I’d add a few more inches to her height, though.

[Lynnwood]

If your looking at a live cover option for the added security. Is it possible to research if there are any other stallions locally that offer live cover ? Perhaps it will give you a few options.