Suggestions for the opinionated mare

[GPjumper]

A little background.
This is an 11 year old mare who can be very VERY difficult to ride. She checks out with the vets soundness wise, scopes clean, ovaries ultrasound okay etc. Chiro and osteopath haven’t found anything. She has a custom saddle so that isn’t the problem. Teeth are done by a dentist (she isn’t due and it doesn’t help)

This mare has become difficult and dangerous to ride. Her owner is about ready to give up on her. (She boards at my facility so I can attest to competency and skill of the rider). The mare will throw her head in the air and to left (so you are stuck spinning in a a circle to thwart the bolt back to the barn). From there she escalates and keeps trying until she dumps whomever is on her back and Galloping back to the barn. She’s ended up in ditch lines with her owner etc. NOTHING seems to work. She does this on a contact, on a loose rein just hacking out. It doesn’t matter. Once the cycle starts, there is no riding it out. I’ve watched her dump multiple people. At this point, a change of discipline wouldn’t matter as she does it hacking around the fields or in the arena. With her attitude, her owner doesn’t think she is worthy of breeding.
Is there anything she could be missing? The only thing left is a cowboy and some wet saddle pads, but I hate the thought of that.
The mare only eats a low sugar balancer so I know that isn’t an issue. She’s turned out from 7am until 3pm (when owner comes to ride) here’s the kicker, even in turnout, she can be miserable for the staff. If any of the other horses in the barn are not where she deems acceptable, she has a melt down. (This is why the owner comes in the afternoon, about when we are bringing in). Regumate didn’t help. Buddies didn’t help. Any other thoughts?

[TheHunterKid90]

Sounds like she learned she can get away with poor behavior and now she’s in a vicious dangerous cycle.

But I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt - does this happen always 5 minutes in? 20 minutes in? Has she been scoped or treated for ulcers?

[GPjumper]

Scopes clean and lives on KER ritetrac. Even getting a dose of Sucralfate before riding didn’t help.
She will do it walking from the mounting block away from the barn as her owner heads towards the fields or ring. There is no timeline.
I’m tempted to suggest 1/4cc of ace IM thinking that maybe if she’s slowed down, they could ride her through it and break the cycle.

[Weezer]

A cowboy is not the answer here, the horse is telling the rider to back off. If this were my mare, I’d put her on pasture rest (24/7) for 3-6 months and then start ground training as if from scratch. I have a friend who basically collects all the horses in the area that become dangerous. She turns them out to pasture for several months and basically lets them go wild, except for basic care. Then she starts them slowly. Once she finds the sweet spot where the horse is happy and engaged, she levels out their work at that spot. Just like most of us don’t have the drive to be elite athletes, most horses just want to chill out.

[GPjumper]

I’m not sure how much more backing off there is to do. She has been in a field since August and has been excellent for ground work/standing at the mounting block while mounted.

[luvmyhackney]

Hard to give advice when not seeing the behavior in person.

I would start the Warwick Schiller program with her, sounds like once her bucket is full of rabbits, she can’t bring herself back down. Drugs don’t fix that.

[beowulf]

A video would be very useful. This all sounds pain related.

[GPjumper]

I’ve passed along WS’s website to her.

@beowulf, if this is pain, no vet can find it. I’m not sure where else we can even look.

[beowulf]

A famous vet said to me once “you cannot rule out pain, only diagnose it.”

At the time I was experiencing a similar journey as you with a horse who vetted sound, was frustratingly difficult, to the point of being dangerous.

I wish I’d understood what that vet meant sooner. It took me another three years to diagnosis this horse’s issue and by then it was late enough he had lasting damage.

A video might help people point you in the right direction.

[Critter]

She’s telling you something is wrong. I’ve learned, over and over, that horses don’t have behavioral issues just because. Especially to that extreme. Over the years, I’ve had a few cases of horses becoming extremely balky/miserable and to the point of being dangerous to ride. All had multiple vet work ups and all the “usual” stuff checked out. In the end, all of them had a significant medical diagnosis…here are the examples:

One mare had acute on chronic pancreatitis…she ended up being euthanized with a severe colic…that was the only way we found it (necropsy required by insurance and there was never a colic…more digging revealed the pancreatitis).

One gelding had a S1 nerve root inflammation at the SI…he did fully recover and has been the nicest horse to ride once he had the proper time to heal.

One gelding ended up with a fast progression of the behavioral issues and had EDM (confirmed on patho).

Current 4yo started with issues…had two broken ribs up near the spine. He’s been off a few months and we will reultrasound to make sure we have full healing before going back to work. Pretty sure my happy guy will be back once those are healed (but had I kept trying to force him through it, I would have create a monster to ride…and he would have had a good reason to be angry!).

Every one of these horses had full vet work ups in the beginning of the issues and I was told they were fine and to take them to a cowboy to make them work. I did with the mare…it didn’t work. I also learned right then to listen more carefully and advocate more. The SI one took a year of me pushing vets for answers…and took multiple major vet clinics. But we found it finally…and he was so naughty it was suggested I put him down at age 6 when the behavior started. He is now 18 and is my most reliable and easy to ride horse. But he had almost 15 months off and then a lot of rehab and a careful return to work program.

I’ve learned there is always a reason…even if you or the vet can’t immediately find it.

[GPjumper]

I can try to get video tomorrow. (If she is coming and willing to ride)
The issue is only under saddle. (Doesn’t matter if it’s her jumping or dressage saddle. She has both custom made for her) bitless bridle was worse as the mare blew threw it and bolted into the barn aisle shooting sparks as she went. (With rider still aboard)
We’ve ultrasounded hind suspensories, nothing has come up. Bone scan was clear. Uterus/ovaries were scanned, cultured and treated. (And cultured clear) she’s been to the two vet clinics local to us and seen by a lameness specialist.
An equioxx trial didn’t work.
Lymes and EPM bloodwork came back negative.

[Critter]

Has the behavior always been that way or is it escalating/changing?

Have they x-rayed/evaluated for kissing spines? Ultrasound of the SI/back (mine needed a rectal US to find the nerve damage)?

Neuro evaluation by a specialist? (My EDM gelding did not show up as a typical neuro horse until the very end…in fact, early on with the behavior he was seen by the sports med vet and neuro issues were not even on the table). Myleogram might be worth considering as maybe something is getting compressed and causing a shock of pain with the rider weight?

[GPjumper]

Bone scan was clean. Back x rays clean as does her neck. Back/neck ultrasound was good. Nothing to suggest neuro.

She is slowly escalating over time. The more you are willing to ride out, the worse she gets.

Now, she isn’t actually being asked to DO anything. She does this anytime she is walking away from the barn. If you are walking towards the barn, she will get tense/want to walk faster/jig.
Just passed where the gate would be to the arena (we have no fence, just a pad, is where the first spin to head towards the out gate occurs. And next one is by a tree. She will spin and try to bolt to the barn. If you try to turn rightX she will block against you and keep going left.

If the spinning doesn’t get you to abandon ship, she will escalate the half rear/spin thing and do it faster the next time around. She’s ended up out of the pad and down in the ditch line with her ride today and when finally backed into a corner for brush decided to calmly walk forward. She will bolt back to the barn if you aren’t careful.

She behaves the same walking out to the pastures or to the trails.

[frugalannie]

Just for curiosity, can she be ponied away from the barn? Does she load on a trailer? Any chance she has vision problems? It sounds like she has a caring owner (with caring friends). It’ll be interesting to see if a solution can be found.

[Texarkana]

My super opinionated mare wasn’t quite this bad, but it was approaching this.

I checked and treated her stomach and ovaries many times. Went over her with a fine tooth comb. No one could find an explanation.

It’s hard to articulate my mare’s issue: she’s just sensitive with no tolerance for discomfort.

Lunging is a trigger. Poorly fitting tack is a trigger (poorly by her definition). Certain materials are triggers, particularly fleece. Jointed bits are a trigger. Certain girths are triggers. And so on and so on.

It was kind of by chance I figured this out. I bought a new saddle and new bit around the same time, and I suddenly had a new, sane horse. I tried to put her back in her dressage-legal loose ring snaffle in preparation for a show and the psychopath was back. So I found a dressage-legal version of what she was using and the sane horse returned. From that point out, I learned to start asking myself “what’s different?” when she would lose her marbles.

I type this out and it all seems like it should have been so obvious, but it wasn’t because she would never respond the same way. Some days she would be throwing herself to the ground, other days she would just be super spooky, then she would be fine… then try to bolt through a fence. You never knew what was coming. Now she is reliable the majority of the time, and if I feel tension creeping in, I have more tools to evaluate the situation and diffuse the bomb.

[GPjumper]

We haven’t ponied because she tries to herd the lead horse obnoxiously and run in circles around it. She loads perfectly, perfect ground manners. The only thing she can be bad about is being caught. Sometimes she refuses to be caught until the others are in (even if she is pacing by the gate acting like she wants to come in)
She does get very upset when any of the horses are in a place she doesn’t seem acceptable. (Even if her herd hasn’t changed) for example, she has a meltdown at the gate if I try to ride my gelding before turning him out, even though he doesn’t go in her field and her three other herd mates are out grazing a few feet away.

[StormyDay]

If you absolutely are sure it’s not pain related, I would find an area that is fenced in and start working here there. She needs to know running back to the barn is not an option.

A round pen would be ideal, but even an empty pasture could be used. Take her out there, and wait for her to calm down. Then get on. She can stand at the fence looking at the barn, that’s totally fine. Then get off. Then get on. Repeat. (Note; use a tall mounting block. The twisting motion of mounting can irritate some horses)

When she decides this is all terribly boring, get on and walk one very small circle. If she’s good about being led, someone can lead you with a lead rope. Get off. Get on. Do the circle again. Do this until it’s terribly boring for her.

Then make the circle bigger. Once that’s boring, stop getting off in between circles. Add a tiny bit of trot, or a pole (whichever she finds more interesting). If at any point she regresses, step back a few steps.

This can take a loooooong time. Like, the first session may just be going out with her and standing with her until she calms down. Take it slow. You basically need to re-train her into thinking work is not hard and running to the barn is not the answer.

I would assume that not matter what, she will not be able to be completely trusted on a trail ride, even when this behavior is rehabbed. Some horses do not find leaving their barn relaxing.

[Warmblood1]

She sounds horribly barn and buddy sour.

Have you tried trailering her off the property and trying to ride her? Curious what she would do if she didn’t have a barn or buddies to want to ride back to.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

What feed is she getting?
Is she on any supplements?
What kind of hay?

Has she been scoped by a vet for gut and hindgut ulcers?
Giving the wrong ulcer meds can make ulcers worse.

[Scribbler]

I knew of a mare that was an ongoing problem and it turned out to be impacted wolf teeth.