Tack: How much is too much?

[Use_Yer_Hed]

I’m currently looking for a lower level eventing prospect. Saw a nice looking Iberian Warmblood mare on Dreamhorse, 6 years old, pretty. Then I watched the sale video. The “trainer” had on this horse a figure 8, and elevator bit with double reins, bit guards, running martingale, and a five-point breast collar. To do a little wtc in a ring. And then a few foot high jumps. When I questioned all the tack, she got really defensive and said she “worked really hard to get all that equipment on her.” A 6 year old horse.

Should I buy this horse as a rescue effort? Seriously, am I missing something or is it common practice to load a horse up with all that leather and metal just to do a little flat work?

[GraceLikeRain]

While the trainer’s response was weird, it doesn’t really sound abusive or something necessitating a “rescue”.

A figure 8 reduces evasion but plenty of people ride in them all the time.

An elevator bit with two reins is more tactful and allows for greater use of the snaffle than a single rein alone.

A bit guard doesn’t do anything negative and just protects the corners of the mouth.

breast collar again doesn’t impact a horse beyond preventing a saddle from slipping.

Running martingale adjusted correctly doesn’t come into effect unless the horse cuts up.

It would be nice to see a horse hack in a plain snaffle but having a second set of reins and a running martingale as an “in case” isn’t always bad on a green horse.

Perhaps a less abrasive way of getting answers would have been to ask the seller if the horse hacks as well in a plain snaffle and whether the running martingale regularly comes into play during schooling or is there as a precaution.

[Xanthoria]

If I show up to see a horse and it’s presented in anything other than a smooth mouthed snaffle of some kind with a French cavesson, I ride it as presented then ask for it to be put in a plain snaffle bridle.

The seller’s response is usually telling… “I don’t have a plain snaffle” (aka I ride everything in a gag or twisted wire because I can’t ride and I feed everything straight oats with no turnout) or “oh, um, Sparky might get overexcited” (Sparky and his numb mouth will pull your arms right out of their sockets without that corkscrew mouthed curb bit) or “Sparky just goes better in a Pelham” (I haven’t a clue how to ride a horse through from the hind end so some curb action helps force his head down into a pretty frame)

Most horses don’t go in remedial tack unless there is something missing in the training. Or the seller has fallen prey to fad (flashes on dressage bridles are ubiquitous. Pessoa gags and grackle or figure 8 nose bands on eventers ditto)

I wouldn’t be worried about the running, breastplate or bit guards either, and some horses prefer a noseband that stabilizes the bit because the riders hands might be unsteady. Or they’re opening their gob so they can tank off!

[Feliz]

I like Gracelikerains way of asking about it - very tactful!

I’ve also been browsing and it is quite a turn off if the only video/s involves gadgets. One I saw had nice photos but the in all the videos the horse was in draw reins. I understand that they are a tool, and can be beneficial in the right circumstances, but it is a bit off putting as you hope the video is showing the horse in the best possible light.

[yellowbritches]

None of that is offensive, though not what I would like to see on a green prospect. The response was odd.

Trying horses is a practice in holding your tongue, though. I showed up at s popular local trainer’s barn at one point to try some horses, and everything came out in a double twisted wire- most of these horses weren’t even at the point they were competing. The most experienced one I tried, which was the one I came out to try, was such a freight train even in that bit, that I could barely manage him over fences. I finally asked on the third horse if I could try it in a plain snaffle. The trainer got very defensive, and made a big production about how she thought I wanted to jump them so she was bringing them out in their jumping tack. My guess is that they only went in plain snaffles when they absolutely had to. It was hard to be polite, especially since I sat on a couple of horses that were just coming 4. I would never in a million years but a baby in that bit! It was an unpleasant experience, but just one of many I dealt with while searching for Toby.

[soloudinhere]

There is absolutely a trend among low level eventing people to dress their horse in all kinds of equipment “like a real eventer” I see it all the time in the 2’ intro divisions - cwd, devoucoux, color coordinated outfits, and a gag figure 8 with a 5 point on a school pony. It’s just a trend and to be honest I would assume the same thing about a horse dressed that way for schooling. I really wouldn’t question someone’s training methods because they had a breastplate on.

Also, a 3 ring elevator with 2 reins is a very common schooling setup in h/j land. I know many (good) trainers who ride everything in the barn in one at home. It’s a handy setup to have.

[asterix]

I agree with everyone else, odd answer and ideally you’d see the horse in less, but it doesn’t mean you should pass on trying the horse.
I’ve had both experiences others have mentioned - horse is shown in more gear than I would like (always a green horse, for what it’s worth), and when I ask to ride in a plain snaffle, turns out horse is same (this is the “all my horses go in this gear” barn), or it turns out horse is a disaster (young jumper trainer, big green horse - first time I rode the horse as he presented it, in the indoor and in his gear. Return ride I told him, outdoor ring, snaffle. Yeah. I declined to jump him again, asked trainer to do it, and he could barely keep the horse in the ring. What a great ammie event prospect)!
If not too far to drive, probably worth a look. Or you could ask for video in a snaffle.

[soloudinhere]

A 3 ring elevator with 2 reins IS a snaffle. It’s not a Pelham, there’s no curb, it’s just a snaffle.

[McGurk]

I love three ring elevators, you can just ride off the snaffle, keep the curb rein loose and not engage it useless you need it - very handy.

Very useful bit to school in; and seeing one wouldn’t raise any alarm bells. However, my reaction to a young horse being flatted in all that tack would have been the same as the OP’s.

Soloudinhere, at the risk of being pedantic, there’s a school of thought (which I subscribe to) that what makes a curb a curb is leverage not a curb chain, and what makes a snaffle is the absence of leverage, not the mouthpiece.

Under those definitions, using one of the lower attachments on a three ring makes it a curb. A mild one, to be sure, but still a curb. Using these definitions also helps make sense of that seeming oxymoron, mullen mouthed snaffle. The real oxymorons are “Tom Thumb snaffle” - it has a shank, it’s a leverage bit, it’s a curb and the “hanging snaffle” or “Baucher snaffle” - mild leverage, to be sure, but leverage - it’s a curb.

[Foxtail]

McGurk, I’m going to disagree slightly with what you said about Baucher snaffles. A Baucher snaffle physically can’t produce leverage. If you look at the way a leverage bit works, it is a lever (obviously) with the fulcrum being the horse’s mouth. The two arms correspond to the upper and lower shanks. A Baucher doesn’t have a lower shank. Now, a lot of people at this point go “wait a minute, kimberwickes don’t have a lower shank and they’re obviously leverage bits.” However, when the reins are fixed in one position, you are essentially creating really tiny lower shanks. That’s where the leverage comes from. If you attached the reins to a kimberwicke in such a way that they can move freely, you don’t get leverage because there’s no lever arm for your effort to work on. Same with Baucher snaffles.

[Use_Yer_Hed]

Thanks everyone for the responses, I’ve learned a lot. My response to the ad was very tactful. I simply asked if there was video of the horse in only what it would be wearing in a dressage test, no martingale, no breast color, no figure 8, so I could see if the horse was rideable without all that. The response was, and I quote, " If you want to come ride her in just a snaffle and video her yourself, feel free…"

Think I’ll pass on this one. I was more put off by the attitude than the tack and there are nice horses out there being sold by owners/trainers without huge chips on their shoulders Thanks again for the feedback!

[Use_Yer_Hed]

Sorry, my “rescue” comment was totally tongue in cheek, the horse was fine. I wasn’t implyong any abuse, just puzzled by the amount of equipment for a three minute sale video. It was more the trainer’s attitude that was off putting. I did ask for a snaffle only video and received a very sarcastic reply about going there and filming my own…ugh

[Use_Yer_Hed]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8652618]
While the trainer’s response was weird, it doesn’t really sound abusive or something necessitating a “rescue”.

A figure 8 reduces evasion but plenty of people ride in them all the time.

An elevator bit with two reins is more tactful and allows for greater use of the snaffle than a single rein alone.

A bit guard doesn’t do anything negative and just protects the corners of the mouth.

breast collar again doesn’t impact a horse beyond preventing a saddle from slipping.

Running martingale adjusted correctly doesn’t come into effect unless the horse cuts up.

It would be nice to see a horse hack in a plain snaffle but having a second set of reins and a running martingale as an “in case” isn’t always bad on a green horse.

Perhaps a less abrasive way of getting answers would have been to ask the seller if the horse hacks as well in a plain snaffle and whether the running martingale regularly comes into play during schooling or is there as a precaution.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t abrasive at all in my response to the ad, and my “rescue” comment was totally tongue in cheek, the horse was fine. I wasn’t implying any abuse, just puzzled by the amount of equipment for a three minute sale video. It was more the trainer’s attitude that was off putting. I asked for a snaffle only video and received a very sarcastic reply about going there and filming my own…

[Highflyer]

A breastplate and figure 8 aren’t exactly uncommon in dressage.

[Thames_Pirate]

The figure 8 doesn’t bother me because a lot of people like them for the breathing room. However, I would look at how tight it is. Breastplate might just be the only one they have to attach the running, and bit guard may be because the only bit they have is slightly too big or because the horse has a cut or whatever. I was taught to always jump with a running on “just in case,” even though I rarely need it. So while it seems like a lot, it really might not be. Loosen the noseband, use only the snaffle rein, see how often the horse hits the martingale, and you will have a good idea of how the horse will go.

[Xanthoria]

[QUOTE=Use Yer Hed;8653000]
Thanks everyone for the responses, I’ve learned a lot. My response to the ad was very tactful. I simply asked if there was video of the horse in only what it would be wearing in a dressage test, no martingale, no breast color, no figure 8, so I could see if the horse was rideable without all that. The response was, and I quote, " If you want to come ride her in just a snaffle and video her yourself, feel free…" [/QUOTE]

Charming! I think you’re right to pass on this one. The seller sounds unpleasant…

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=McGurk;8652781]

Under those definitions, using one of the lower attachments on a three ring makes it a curb. A mild one, to be sure, but still a curb. Using these definitions also helps make sense of that seeming oxymoron, mullen mouthed snaffle. The real oxymorons are “Tom Thumb snaffle” - it has a shank, it’s a leverage bit, it’s a curb and the “hanging snaffle” or “Baucher snaffle” - mild leverage, to be sure, but leverage - it’s a curb.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree.

I am just letting you know that a Tom thumb in Australia IS a snaffle bit.

It wasn’t untiI I came onto an American forum that I found out that American’s call a curb bit a Tom Thumb as well.

[Xanthoria]

I didn’t know that Suzie - looked up some pics: looks like a full cheek with flattened cheeks. Interesting!

Western riders in the USA call a bit with a broken (jointed) mouth a snaffle. It can have curb and other actions.

My personal theory is that the term “snaffle” was borrowed from English riding to mean “simple and not harsh” and the meaning of the word snaffle was originally “simple bridle-bit” which came from the 1530s apparently.

Conversely as you’ll know English style riders in the US and elsewhere define a snaffle as a bit with no curb or gag action. Hence you can have a a mullen mouth snaffle (curved bar with no joints) and all sorts of simple snaffles that work with direct action.

(Confusingly there’s also a “Cheltenham gag snaffle” which is not really a snaffle because it has gag action.)

[Equisis]

The attitude of the seller would tick me off, and I would pass. With that said, I don’t think the tack was necessarily excessive. I put a breastplate on pretty much everything I ride, every time, and ALWAYS on a green horse. This includes dressage, both at home and in competition. A 5-point is just a breastplate, and is no different than a 3-point other than some added stability. I’ve had horses that do dressage in figure 8s. Bit guards don’t impact a horse’s way of going and are common with free ring bits for jumping. I think it is fair to want to see the horse go in a snaffle without the running (as it would for dressage) but many sellers video horses on the flat in their jump tack, since they typically jump in the videos as well. An elevator can be a lot of bit for a young horse, true, but it is a very useful bit in the right hands, and I’d rather see two reins on one for a young horse than one.

[UnlacedDreams]

@soloudinhere;8652712

There is absolutely a trend among low level eventing people to dress their horse in all kinds of equipment “like a real eventer” I see it all the time in the 2’ intro divisions - cwd, devoucoux, color coordinated outfits, and a gag figure 8 with a 5 point on a school pony. It’s just a trend and to be honest I would assume the same thing about a horse dressed that way for schooling. I really wouldn’t question someone’s training methods because they had a breastplate on.

This comment did make me giggle a bit, because it’s part truth but has a hint of good-natured condescension. My friend rides in a devoucoux and she’s still hopping over crossrails. She didn’t buy it to look like “a real eventer”, she bought it because she has the money and liked it. And I am very into fashion outside the “horse world”, so even if I never had any desire to compete I would probably still be matchy-matchy with colors.

However, reading between the lines I do know exactly the type individual you were really referring to. I just thought it was funny that the things you happened to use as examples were actually fairly innocent things.