Entries at shows are down for good reason, I know, but my barn is currently at a show (B show) and the spouse of a trainer is showing in the following divisions: green hunters, performance hunters, AO 3’3 and a combine Child/Adult hunter section (different horses in the AO and C/A). Honestly, this seems really tacky to me: this adult really needs to show his animals in the C/A divisions instead of one of the many other open divisions? Our kids are counting 121212 around the course and this person is taking champion in the greens and competing against our kids?
I am not an enormous fan of having to combine the adults and the children hunters for this reason. Half the time the adults don’t want to show against the kids, and if the adult is a good rider and well mounted, it can engender feelings like yours amongst the kids and their parents. Leaving aside the fact that he is related to a trainer, which is an optics problem, not necessarily one of eligibility. As you say, entries are down, and in winter shows this is often more common anyway. It’s just an unfortunate situation.
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I always thought greens was about the horse not the rider. If the spouse is not a horse pro these are appropriate. Realize that they are not doing this just for ego. Part of their business model is to get show miles on sales horses in the classes their clients will want to ride.
If there had to blend children’s and adults because of low attendance, your one two kiddies are going to be out of the ribbons regardless of which adults choose to show. But honestly they are likely to be out of the ribbons in a normal year too because there are lots of children out there who are riding at a more advanced level. I don’t think ribbons are the point when children get taken to shows at the upper beginner/lower intermediate level. It’s more about a big outing, team building, having a goal, making the program look like a coherent Little League sport, and getting day fees and lease fees income from the students. It’s part of the business plan.
Anyhow, if the classes are combined I’m not sure what anyone adult or child can do about it. If you want to take a horse at that height, that’s what you do.
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Good points. The difference I see is that people who ride in child/adult divisions may be solid riders, but they are frequently inconsistent. Pros are not, people who ride horses in the Performance Hunters are not. I ride in the adults, sometimes I am champion, other times I fall off. Oftentimes in these divisions, you can totally blow it one day at the horse show, and then win the 2 over fences and end up champion or reserve. I am not really upset or anything, I just find it odd at this individual would ride in these divisions when it appears to be totally unnecessary. They certainly don’t seem to have made any friends doing it!
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I don’t really have a problem with it if the horse is only being shown at that height or close to it (e.g., 2’6" and 2’9"). Hunters is all about the horse, so if showing at a particular height is where a particular horse needs to be, then to me, it doesn’t matter who’s riding the horse. If the same horse is showing C/A at 2’6" and in, e.g., Performance Hunters at 3’3", that’s when I would start squawking.
As mentioned by others above, I’m pretty sure the decision to show in the C/A division in this situation isn’t about beating a bunch of kids out of ribbons, it’s about putting show miles on a sale horse that needs to have show miles at this particular height.
After all, what do we all say here all the time? Buy a horse that’s already doing what you want it to do. Well, if you’re planning to market a horse in training to potential buyers who will likely want to show in the C/A division, how else would you demonstrate that the horse has experience (and hopefully success) in that division?
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Yeah, but it goes without saying that experience in the child/adult divisions with a rider capable of riding horses in the performance and green hunters (and winning) is not the same as selling a children’s hunter with experience with a child or normal adult amateur rider. Anyway, just a question that is coming up in these pandemic times with the collapsing of divisions.
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There are some zones that restrict cross entry between AO and AA for this reason. I don’t think it matters if they can also place well in the greens. If they can ride an AO horse well, they can probably ride a green horse well.
That said, I don’t really like that rule because there are plenty of good riding adults with 3’ horses. Sometimes they are far from green. Maybe they used to do the AO and are older. In any case, lack of skill is not an amateur requirement. It is unfortunate that they have to combine ch/aa but one life skill this sport teaches us is how to lose. And learn and try to do better.
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Bad optics and possibly against cross entry restrictions depending on the zone. Zone 10 doesn’t allow cross entry rules bw Ch/AA hunters and AO hunters or performance hunters.
If not against your zone’s cross entry rules then not much you can do except possibly talk to trainer.
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Is the trainer’s spouse a professional? If they are simply an adult amateur, married to a pro, then they are free to enter whatever division is appropriate to their horse and status. If this is a ‘schooling’ type show, not a rated one, then cross entry may be possible between the AOs and the AAs, though that seems unlikely for most shows. Are you sure that is correct?
Honestly, as an adult, this has happened to me at shows with a pro’s spouse/partner…and I don’t mind one bit! We are all out there doing the best we can over that course and may the best combo win–kid, or adult. If your kids are showing CH/AA-- 3 foot right?-- then they are fairly accomplished and should be able to hold their own against the average adult. Are you assuming the pro’s spouse is a “pro in disguise” somehow? Are they? Or are they just another horse person showing?
As an adult, I am often in divisions with children at smaller shows when the adults (or kids) don’t fill. It is just the way it is in the horse world. Kids and adults accept it or they don’t show. Let me tell you-- equitating against a kid ain’t easy! We often lose.
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If these are kids counting out 1-2 1-2, are there really competitive in a 3’ division? If someone is showing in the A/O’s I can’t imagine a scenario where they could show under 3’ other than some unrated local or regional divisions.
Typically a good riding older teen with a bit more confidence and less sense of “what happens if this goes wrong?” will outride a legit ammy adult if they are both honest to goodness 3’ riders.
I am often more a than a bit suspicious of spouses of pro’s. Those that I know of that do the 3’6 and over are usually at least quasi-pro. Typically as the sale horses are bought in the spouse’s name and the spouse puts all or most of the training into the horse and when it sells it’s the pro partner who gets the commission. Remember, an ammy can buy, train and sell horses as long as they don’t get paid by someone to do so. They train the horse as an ammy then sell it using the good name of the farm and pro spouse.
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It’s just kind of an unfortunate situation. Many zones do not allow you to have both an AO horse and an AA horse at the same show for this reason. Although, many people disagree with that rule because it prevents working amateurs from being able to bring up a young horse themselves. It’s also unfortunate that the adults and children’s were combined. But there’s nothing particularly tacky going on assuming this person actually does follow amateur rules.
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Sounds like sour grpes.
The opticsof complaining about someone compteing in a division they ARE eligible for are far worse than the optics of an adult amateur winning over children in a combined AA/CH class.
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I wouldn’t consider it bad optics if the trainer’s spouse wasn’t also showing in the higher divisions and riding in the lower ones against said trainer’s clients. Even if it’s allowed by the cross entry rules. But it’s merely bad not horrible and it’s going to depend on the barn culture.
In the mixed junior and adult divisions it seems like both demographics worry about the other.
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I can see both sides of it. I recognize that horses need cheap show milage. However, this situation is one of these uniquely Hunter quirks that drives me nuts.
A very high-end barn near me has a jumper schooling series. Great footing, professional course designer, divisions from poles up to 4’ . Naturally, it attracts people who can really ride, including a few people who are legit international level jumpers. Not quite the name recognition of McLain Ward. But riders who you’d know if you even casually follow show jumping.
This barn also hosts an IEA riding team & has lesson horses (Albeit really nice ones.) Looking at the results in the lower divisions (18"-2’6") you’ll see the big name riders entered on clients’ horses. And they usually come in 3rd or 4th after 10 year old kids on schooling horses.
Now, both of those big name riders are the parents of younger kids. And the one I’m vaguely acquainted with is an extremely gracious & kind human being. I could totally see this rider saying, “Hey, I’m just here to put show miles on this 4yo fruitcake. And I don’t need any more show logo saddle pads. Nudge, nudge, wink wink. Please put us at the bottom behind any kids.”
Otoh, a fellow boarder used to have someone you’ve definitely heard of ride her green bean horse in the BN & N divisions at local, unsanctioned horse trials.( No kids in those.) And they weren’t winning,either. That suggests that the formulaic-based scoring criteria used in jumpers & eventing does even things out in pro/young horse versus regular human/steady eddie.
There has to be a better way of handling this in hunters that meets everyone’s needs. Yes, it isn’t always about the ribbons for kids. But as a parent, I’ll tell you that it is nice for them to be recognized sometimes. It is nice to win the damn $3 embroidered baby pad occasionally. Especially if the animals they can afford are not going to be competative at A level. More than one schooling series locally will combine adults & children but pin them separately, for example. I’m sure there are ways to handle this better.
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Ehhhhhh, I want a horse that is already doing what I want to do with the rough equivalent of me riding it. Say I want a horse for the 3’ Adult hunter division. I pull the horse’s USEF # & see that it has been showing 3’ at WEF but only with Hunt Tosh on board. That’s not going to do me any good – just because Hunt Tosh can get it coursing 3’ doesn’t mean I can. I view the horse’s results in a starter division with a pro at some non-rated show as completely irrelevant. It’s ok for the pro to “audit” those classes, if you will.
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So, whatever happened to flipping your number and riding hors concours? Seems like that would be more sporting if you’re just putting the miles on the horse…
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If you show at A shows the Children’s hunters always fills. Problem solved.
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Sorry, wish I could quote better.
I don’t think a horse show nor adults ought to set up an uneven playing field and then wag their finger at the “unsportsmanlike” wishes of those set up to lose.
OP, I do think it’s bad optics to have the partner of the pro show against children, even if he’s a legit (and even bad-riding) amateur. Then again, I think combining the children and adults division is where the problem starts. And I really wouldn’t be happy as a client of the pro! I know pros get to coach every client to a win, even when they are all in the same division. I know pros need to sell horses and therefore have well-coached ammies take them around in that division. But if I were a parent with my kid out there, I might feel that was verging on a conflict of interest in which my kid and wallet were getting the short end of the stick.
Remember that the amateur division was created to solve just this conflict of interest between client and pro. IMO, the far-sighted pro would find a way not to have his partner compete against his junior clients.
If the rider in question also takes another horse around the 3’3" division, I don’t think this is a “bad-riding ammy client” who is appropriately placed in the sub-3’ division. Yes, I know there are kid jockeys that could catch ride these sales horses, too, and also beat the pants off the actual amateur kids with the one ride all day. But it would actually be sportsman-like to try and have the playing field as level as possible going in! I don’t see why that goal is one anyone should apologize for, even if current definitions of an amateur and divisions don’t accomplish that well. Folks who think this is impossible to accomplish as things stand are confusing “is” and “ought.”
In the meantime, why not have the good-riding adult there on the “economic mission” of getting a sales horse some miles just show hors de concours?
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Because this doesn’t actually satisfy the mission- the horse doesn’t show a record of competing in the division.
And hey, we are assuming bad intent on the spouse’s part where it may not exist. It could legitimately be his horse! The OP has- quite rightly- not disclosed enough information for anyone to go do some internet sleuthing. The one thing we probably know is that the horse didn’t belong to a client of the trainer married to the amateur.
If it’s not his horse and he is putting a record on it to sell, would you have felt differently, OP, if the barn grabbed their Maclay rider to pilot the horse around? It would have been a good-riding junior instead of what I’m assuming is a good-riding adult. I say this because sometimes you have a horse who’s liable to be a punk its first time out in awhile, you plan to have someone other than its 12-year-old show it so you don’t end the day with tears, and you pick that someone from the pool of riders suitable to that horse on the day. Which is how I ended up competing in the children’s hunters against Kacey McCann, who came second in the Maclay the year Brianne won it. She beat me. This was going to happen regardless. She was catch-riding a very nice young horse. But I saw what her catch-ride did in the schooling ring!
I’m not trying to sweep under the rug all of the unsportsmanlike behavior that spouses of pros CAN get up to (and amateurs with business relationships to pros, etc.) I agree that the amateur’s personal relationship to the pro is at best an optics problem in this particular case. Just throwing out that there are a lot of reasons that someone might be riding in a division that they are “overqualified for” on paper.
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So…ummmm… I still count 1,2 1,2. (Sometimes 1,2 1/2) ;).
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