Talk to Me about Hunters Bump.

[thecolorcoal]

The good, the bad, and the ugly, and please for the love of cheerios the hopeful!

A very good friend at my new barn’s horse has been diagnosed. He flunked out of dressage and was sold to her for very cheap as an event horse. I don’t know much about it. There is a question about whether or not mine has it as well.

Is there a treatment besides what I already know, aka chiro, massage, etc. if there is no unevenness in the pelvis but the pelvis is tilted with a slight raised lumbar, what is the long term prognosis?

[Scribbler]

There was a thread recently with a link to a good explanation on horse.com.

It’s a rotation of the pelvis caused by tears in the ligaments. Can be caused by either an acute injury or chronic strain. Once the painful part if any is over it isn’t considered unsoundness just a blemish. It seems like the problem can be diminished with correct riding and stretching to the bit but it is traditionally considered permanent.

Also if the horse is underweight or undermuscled the points of the pelvis can be more prominent but disappear with better condition.

It tends to be caused by horses being on the forehand and straining the hind end. Common in lesson horses that heave themselves over the jump.

Really you need to consider if the horse is showing any signs of pain or stiffness in the SI to know if it’s a problem.

Also it’s a catch-all phrase for what a condition looks like from the outside so you’d need more examination to say what’s going on in any case.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler, thanks for your help. Can it also be caused by bad saddle fit? we are not sure how this horse acquired it but let me tell you it is BIG and was enough to fail him out of the running as a dressage horse. I did hear there are collection issues with a hunters bump. Is this true? She is obviously not selling him but was hoping to use him for high-level eventing.

[Scribbler]

@thecolorcoal

@Scribbler, thanks for your help. Can it also be caused by bad saddle fit? we are not sure how this horse acquired it but let me tell you it is BIG and was enough to fail him out of the running as a dressage horse. I did hear there are collection issues with a hunters bump. Is this true? She is obviously not selling him but was hoping to use him for high-level eventing.

I don’t think saddle fit is a primary cause.

Despite the name the condition is very common in dressage horses who are ridden badly. A horse that is pulled into a “round frame” but has a hollow back and trailing hocks will develop one. It is possible the bump was caused by his dressage training.

As to whether a cold healed and painless bump will impede performance you don’t really know until you try.

Not all horses are prone to them. A horse whose point of hip is under his Si joint has a much stronger loin than a horse whose point of hip is behind his SI joint. In other words a big hip and short back are stronger than a long back and small hip.

Why did they pull the horse out of dressage? Was he just not talented enough, or did he break down under training? What level of dressage did he reach? I’ve certainly seen horses broken down before they are confirmed first level, Hunter’s bump and blown hocks. Obviously a horse like that is not going to make an eventer without rehab. On the other hand if it’s a case of just didn’t have the brio or the gaits to hold his own at let’s say third level, but he has jumping talent, he might be a good eventer.

If you have real questions about the damage already done to a horse you should involve a good vet and do a PPE even on a free horse because his vet bills in future will not be free.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler, he is only a 5 y/o WB but my friend said the only thing the old owners commented on was that he was “too difficult to train,” but the trainer (this horse and my friend’s) is well-known for riding extremely, extremely deep, and if what you are saying is true I can believe this could be the cause of the hunter’s bump… He was not jumped. I don’t think he was born with this bump, as it is the biggest i’ve ever seen, and for his breeding he should have cost way, way more - they paid barely anything for him. I believe he broke down but I am not going to ask. Trying not to be rude to my friend…

I hope he works out for her. She, unfortunately, did not do a PPE and took the trainer at her word that he would be a good UL prospect. This trainer is not known for being trustworthy, though… at least us on the outside see it…

[IPEsq]

As Scribbler said, some horses are prone to them via conformation if they are not trained slowly and correctly. I think it can also be an acute injury that may not have anything to do with training. If the horse flunked in dressage because of a physical inability to come under and through (versus just not being trained to do so), then I might be more concerned about possible other issues like hocks, stifles, thoracic or lumbar spine problems, etc etc, where the SI just took the visible brunt of the problem. Provided he is sound enough otherwise, he is going to need a rehabilitative conditioning program. If the SI isn’t painful now, it may be in a good place…just a blemish. But all of the things that will help hide it through conditioning and proper movement will prevent further damage.

I was tasked with similar reconditioning for a h:j horse with a long back and a bad hunter’s bump. We did a lot of long and low, hill work, long trot sets, and then carefully resumed jumping with a lot of gymnastics. Once he got fitter, the hunter’s hump looked a lot less prominent, it was discovered he was not sound in the lower limbs (multiple), which is why the previous trainer allowed him to sit and get out of shape. At first, it was too difficult to tell what was NQR and what was lack of fitness. Owner had him since birth and had never done any X-rays. Moral of the story is, your friend may want to get some imaging done. Although she skipped a PPE, perhaps you can suggest she get some “baseline” rads and flexions for her records to see if he needs any medical help now and (hopefully) to inform her training plan, although I get that’s tricky if her trainer isn’t being helpful.

[Scribbler]

@IPEsq

As Scribbler said, some horses are prone to them via conformation if they are not trained slowly and correctly. I think it can also be an acute injury that may not have anything to do with training. If the horse flunked in dressage because of a physical inability to come under and through (versus just not being trained to do so), then I might be more concerned about possible other issues like hocks, stifles, thoracic or lumbar spine problems, etc etc, where the SI just took the visible brunt of the problem. Provided he is sound enough otherwise, he is going to need a rehabilitative conditioning program. If the SI isn’t painful now, it may be in a good place…just a blemish. But all of the things that will help hide it through conditioning and proper movement will prevent further damage.

I was tasked with similar reconditioning for a h:j horse with a long back and a bad hunter’s bump. We did a lot of long and low, hill work, long trot sets, and then carefully resumed jumping with a lot of gymnastics. Once he got fitter, the hunter’s hump looked a lot less prominent, it was discovered he was not sound in the lower limbs (multiple), which is why the previous trainer allowed him to sit and get out of shape. At first, it was too difficult to tell what was NQR and what was lack of fitness. Owner had him since birth and had never done any X-rays. Moral of the story is, your friend may want to get some imaging done. Although she skipped a PPE, perhaps you can suggest she get some “baseline” rads and flexions for her records to see if he needs any medical help now and (hopefully) to inform her training plan, although I get that’s tricky if her trainer isn’t being helpful.

These are really good points. The deformity of the SI joint is a visible blemish but it may not be a problem.

However if the horse has been broken down by rushed fast dressage training there could be other problems through the hind end. The horses joints work in unison so if the SI is stressed you know the stifles and hocks have also taken a beating.

The horse may have been ridden aggressively because he had a difficult personality. Or he might have been putting up a fight because the riding was damaging him physically.

I too would say the new owner should have a good examination of the hind end and given this new information that this is a “difficult” horse, be very aware that difficult behavior is usually a sign of pain, present or anticipated. Look on him as a rehab project.

I am guessing friend is not that experienced and was thrilled to get a “bargain” on a nice horse. I say this because an experienced buyer would have a PPE in a case like this.

She may be able to solve his problems, or not.

If she is staying with the same trainer who broke him down then I don’t see anything going well.

And no, horses are not born with hunters bump.

[thecolorcoal]

thank you @Scribbler@IPEsq . I encouraged them to buy this horse because a DWB in the low thousands is unheard of, especially as a youngster with brimming potential. They have seen my struggles with my horse and I did warn them about taking what the owner says at face value, as I learned the very, very hard way not to willingly trust sellers. I thought the old owners were selling him because they didn’t have the patience to train him, but when he arrived on property i was shocked. He was very underweight and had the BIGGEST, BIGGEST!!! hunters bump i have ever seen. It is so large that it makes his blankets peak like a tent. I felt terrible about egging them to buy him after that and I said nothing. Friend is very, very young high schooler and was just excited about getting a $$$ breed…

The trainer she works with has a very bad reputation at our barn, but she is so charismatic and blows so much smoke up everyone’s bum that she’s quite hypnotic and you can’t help but agree with her. I trained with her for a little while and as soon as my eyes opened I backed off immediately and ripped my horse out of that program as fast as I could.

It’s not unheard of where I am from for owners to skip a PPE if the trainer swears on his/her grave the horse is sound. Trainer also got a huge commission on horse because she was the old owner’s trainer as well. Horse was a homebred for the old owners. It sounded like they just wanted him gone ASAP and were willing to knock his price down to peanuts to open another stall for a more promising prospect. There were a lot of red flags in the story my friend told me when she announced her interest in buying this horse, but being the hopeful person I am I dismissed all of them…

I have not seen the horse ridden. Reports from other riders say the horse is magnificent, others say he is a dud and trainer scammed poor friend… No idea what is the truth. We will soon see if this was truly a basement bargain or a snake oil sale…

[IPEsq]

Not sure how you can make a huge commission on a horse that is sold for peanuts. Lesson learned for the buyer and her parents, I suppose. A PPE can get expensive, but no matter if a horse costs $1,000 or $100,000, the purchase price is often the least expensive thing about owning a horse.

[thecolorcoal]

I think at some point you have to look at the price of the horse, what you want them to do, and how you would feel if they couldn’t do it. If you can accept the horse’s usefulness may be limited, but the price is right, I don’t believe anything past flexion tests is necessary.

Then again, she wants to ride 4*, so for her an expensive PPE would be necessary.

[IPEsq]

It’s not just about how you feel about it, but can you pay for a 5 year old that can’t do a job and you maybe can’t rehome but will live maybe another 20 years? It’s always a crapshoot with horses, but I think it’s a big, big mistake not to do a PPE. The horse I mentioned above which was not sound at all and is now retired before the age of 10 was underweight, under muscled, big hunter’s bump and the excuse of “oh, the previous trainer just didn’t have time for him.” Sweet horse, great temperament, but had a lameness issue in all 4 legs. Flexed not bad, though. But he was sore in hocks, stifles, and front feet even following careful rehabilitative exercise plans, having the vets instruct the farrier. And it started to come out in his behavior. The horse that should have been the six figure hunter/derby horse (according to trainer) was not sound enough for 2’ with simple changes. I bet some radiographs would have been interesting. The bulk of the problems were not so apparent when he was so out of shape but surely were there.

[Scribbler]

@thecolorcoal

I think at some point you have to look at the price of the horse, what you want them to do, and how you would feel if they couldn’t do it. If you can accept the horse’s usefulness may be limited, but the price is right, I don’t believe anything past flexion tests is necessary.

Then again, she wants to ride 4*, so for her an expensive PPE would be necessary.

If you can accept the horse may be limited but you are OK with the horse being retired early on your dime, or euthanized so you can buy a rideable horse, the PPE isn’t needed. If you are a trainer or dealer with a large intake and can afford a loss, a PPE isn’t needed. But if you are taking on one horse, one special horse, then you really do need to know what you are starting with otherwise you will be thousands and thousands of dollars down the tube in vet bills by the time you give up and euth or retire.

While it is true that a wellbred horse that is sound is rarely cheap, a wellbred horse that is not sound is not worth anything. My trainer friends have a couple of gorgeous warmblood geldings that they got for $1 each, that previously sold for $60,000 each, and really they have never totally sorted out their various issues to get them going consistently under saddle. I have another friend who is on track to get a $30,000 gelding for free because it has some physical issues and the owner/breeder is in financial trouble. Etc. In other words, a gelding that is not sound has no resale value no matter his breeding because there is nothing you can do with him. this is also true of OTTB that have retired from the track unsound. No one wants them. They go to slaughter.

I note now that OP is adding the horse is very underweight. Being underweight makes the points of the pelvis much more prominent, so he may appear to have more of a hunter’s bump than he really does. A hunter’s bump is when the horse is of decent weight but still has the prominent pelvis.

Random photo of very thin horse with pelvis visible:

http://www.centralvahorserescue.com/…20110728_2.jpg

A horse can also be of OK weight but have a very deteriorated topline. Perhaps horse was thin before, put on weight, but never put on muscle. Perhaps horse has nerve problems in the back.

All that said, you really won’t know how this works out until the horse is rehabbed and you see his final weight and fitness. If he is noticeably underweight he shouldn’t be ridden until he has some muscle to carry the rider. He should be treated a bit like a “rescue” in rehabbing and feeding him up. There are lots of threads on here about that.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler, I think this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree on the worth of a horse. I would never imagine buying a horse only to put it down if it’s “unsound.” I know that happens. I also completely, strongly disagree that “unsound” ottb’s need to be sent to slaughter. I think every horse can find SOME purpose. This horse may never be a 4* horse but if the kid really loves him he has no monetary value other than a thing to be loved. Why must a horse’s value be placed on what they can provide for an owner? If you LOVE your animal and are WILLING (hard emphasis on WILLING), the issues and the price should be a forethought. If you believe a horse is only as good as its value to an owner than you will be the type to toss out the unproductive ones and cycle through horses… And I do not agree with people who do that. I get it is done, but if shop for love first, usefulness later, because I need to have some emotional investment in the creature if I am going to be supporting it for its entire life.

[Scribbler]

@thecolorcoal

@Scribbler, I think this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree on the worth of a horse. I would never imagine buying a horse only to put it down if it’s “unsound.” I know that happens. I also completely, strongly disagree that “unsound” ottb’s need to be sent to slaughter. I think every horse can find SOME purpose. This horse may never be a 4* horse but if the kid really loves him he has no monetary value other than a thing to be loved. Why must a horse’s value be placed on what they can provide for an owner? If you LOVE your animal and are WILLING (hard emphasis on WILLING), the issues and the price should be a forethought. If you believe a horse is only as good as its value to an owner than you will be the type to toss out the unproductive ones and cycle through horses… And I do not agree with people who do that. I get it is done, but if shop for love first, usefulness later, because I need to have some emotional investment in the creature if I am going to be supporting it for its entire life.

I didn’t say I agreed with sending broken down race horses to slaughter. I just said that’s what happens because most people will not knowingly take on a crippled horse especially if they only have the funds to support one riding horse.

If a horse was permanently injured under my watch, I would feel it was my responsibility to pay for its retirement as I caused the problem.

However when I am picking out a horse soundness is the number one must have. I am not going to start with known problems as I have seen how hard and tricky it is to get consistent use out of a horse that is NQR or worse.

If I went to view the most wonderful horse in the world and it was visibly off I would pass on the deal, and not fall in love.

And honestly who are these folks who are putting unsound horses on the market and getting kids to buy them?

I would buy unbroke over unsound any day. I don’t see any reason to buy someone else’s problem. And I have to say I find a sound horse easier to love because they are happier friendlier braver than one with chronic pain.

As for where all the unsound horses go, well, there isn’t a job for all of them.

If they are wonderful schoolmasters they can be medically managed up to a certain point and do lessons.

But racing, showing, and even just training eat up and spit out a lot of horses. Unless one’s life goal is to run a sanctuary for crocked horses there is no way to provide for them. And a lot of horse problems are progressive which is where you end up euthing a horse because the founder navicular arthritis whatever has got too far along.

And as far as a kid falling in love with a horse that is crocked from the start and will never be a truly happy partner, that’s just buying heartache and misery, for both kid and horse.

Better to put a horse like that out to pasture and get the kid something that is happy in the job.

Trying to make a horse work through chronic pain because you “love” it is not love.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler - I don’t think that a “lame” horse is in “chronic pain.” I have seen chronic pain. My friend got swindled by a horse dealer (her SECOND time, too, talk about not learning from your mistakes…) who promised the horse she bought with a canon bone fracture would heal perfectly. His fracture healed, but his joint did NOT and it ended up fusing and cracking and fusing and cracking and within 2 months the horse was so lame he couldn’t even make it out of his stall. It was terrible to watch. He was a thoroughbred like mine but had been snapped in half his second race and tossed out like garbage because he was a gelding. Did he deserve to be thrown away? I don’t think so. My friend gave him a great six months of life. He gave her six months of happiness, even though he was never sound and never rideable. I used to think like you, that a horse was only as good as what it could give, but watching her with her gelding changed my mind. She was wiling to put thousands into him just to keep him happy, so that she could bask in his loving personality.

There is “structurally unsound” and then there is “usability unsound.” A horse with a severely fractured pastern with joint chips who is walking around on three legs is structurally unsound. A downhill quarter horse who can’t jump over 2’6 but can rip around barrels perfectly is usability unsound for a hunter rider. I believe this horse is usability unsound for this young rider, NOT structurally unsound. I don’t think he will be able to compete to the level she wants.

I think it is open season on owners when you start accusing people of abusing their horses with healed bowed tendons by jumping them over 3’ crossrails, or pointing fingers at the woman who manages her eventer’s kissing spine the best she can. The lesson trainer, who heavily medicates her old, STRUCTURALLY UNSOUND horses until they can’t feel their own feet just to provide a 30 minute lesson for little suzie is doing more harm to her animals than a girl jumping her horse with an apparent healed hunters bump. And I KNOW a riding lesson instructor who does this!!! She doesn’t even medicate them! :no:

My horse is structurally unsound for competitive eventing and high-level jumping, but usability and structurally sound for hunters. My friend’s horse, had he not been hurt, would have been usability sound for eventing but unsound for dressage based on conformation.

Does that make sense? Just because a horse had an injury in the past does not mean it’s usefulness is over. We should not be throwing out the serviceably sound thoroughbreds just because they can’t compete A/O hunters, but could be an excellent 2’ horse or competitive trail animal.

This girl already has a horse who is usability unsound because he will no longer jump, due to either past pain or bad training. He is sound in every other sport but jumping. Does that mean he doesn’t deserve a job? She has decided to keep him and provide for him because she loves him, and he is leased out as a dressage horse and trail horse.

@Scribbler, I agree that IF you decide to buy one of these begotten, broken horses, you better make a lifelong commitment to it. It’s not fair to the animal to be thrown away or killed when your prospect does not turn out the way you wanted it to after it heals from whatever injury it may have had.

It sucks that this horse is such a nice warmblood and his abilities may top out before he’s even begun his career… Oh, and what’s worse is he’s started to crib… Sounds a lot like my mare.

Obviously I am biased towards TBs because I have one… I do know a lot of people who are against the rehoming of thoroughbreds for the reasons you’ve mentioned, but I believe a horse with a healed injury, so long as it is no longer causing them pain, can go on and be successful. My sphere of influence is not into the high-level showing, so I admit I’m very much into making-do with what you have and can afford.

[Edre]

I’m puzzled: this entire thread seems to imply they bought the horse sight unseen? Or at least - that’s how I read the fact that they were surprised by his condition when he arrived?

The adage “look a gift horse in the mouth” comes to mind: if a price seems too good to be true, chances are there’s a reason for it - and definitely worth looking into the reasons why, especially as it sounds like this girl has aspirations to perform at a level that would require a sound, healthy horse.

Lesson learned: Encourage your equine associates to proceed with a PPE. I would also consider perhaps not participating in buying/selling decisions of your equestrian community (even if they invite you to!) It’s really easy for people to get frustrated if something doesn’t go the way they want and they, even if they’re the nicest of people, can end up projecting blame/frustration and that can really damage relationships. I might suggest you practice “You know, I wish you luck, but I don’t really know enough to be valuable to you. You might want to talk with your trainer/vet!” because that is the best way to be supportive: give positive feedback and good advice!

RE: the soundness bit of this conversation.
I think there’s a necessary distinction between serviceably sound, pasture sound, and unsound/not pasture sound. I also think it’s doing people a disservice to immediately bin the idea of euthanasia for horses that have soundness problems. People have different resources and while one person might have an unsound horse that they could, with a year and a lot of money, rehabilitate to pasture sound, they might not have that time or money (and rehoming an unsound horse is not something I generally consider advisable given the nature of our industry and how many horses there are in the market that are already in desperate need of a soft landing) to do it. Likewise, horses whose quality of life suffer due to their unsoundness (and this can be without expensive management, OR it can be with an attempt to manage it). I don’t think it’s wrong to consider euthanasia for these animals. It doesn’t necessarily have to relate to “what does a horse have to give?” and can have everything to do with the very basic fact that depending on what is causing lameness/unsoundness, the horse’s quality of life is suffering. Not everyone can manage that. Not everyone wants to. It can be expensive, and it is generally a lot of heartbreak. Someone deciding that euthanasia is the best option for them isn’t someone I really consider myself qualified to judge, based on their decisions.

And ultimately I think that loops back to this situation because frankly, it sounds like this horse wasn’t an ideal purchase. Hopefully it works out (and that it can be handled with proper management!) but ultimately, this is not a good situation for anyone to be in and I think that more professional insight would have been helpful from the beginning because more knowledge/information is never going to hurt. Having the appropriate resources to make an educated decision is always the goal!

[thecolorcoal]

@Edre , my point of this thread was to discuss whether or not a hunters bump could seriously prevent a horse from succeeding, and it sounds like the answer is no in a general sense, yes in a specific sense.

Thanks for your input. It sounds like, yes, this was a sight-unseen and a case of believing the trainer over your own knowledge and inner voice. The trainer schmoozed the new owners into buying the horse, deeply discounted, assuring them that despite his physical flaws he could perform the job the girl wanted him to, which according to trainer was less demanding than the dressage. he was pinned as being extremely difficult, I assume due to the SI issues that developed this bump. Trainer is not good at differentiating pain from orneriness. As I said the majority of us on the outside greatly dislike this woman but she has a cult-following, to help put it into perspective.

I think that the part everyone is missing is he IS sound. All four legs in working order. No pain as of this moment. But if one is defining “soundness” as the “ability to successfully and truly do the job asked without physical or mental ramifications,” then he is definitely “unsound” for a 4* career. Maybe “sound” up until intermediate.

I think the majority of horses are “unsound” with that definition.

I think they are hoping this horse will beat the odds. I do rally for them. He is a beautiful animal and I am told he moves like a dream, but I think this horse is but a stepping stone towards something more $$$ that could be the perfect match for the girl.

I still see this as making lemonade out of sour lemons. A horse who’s quality of life is reduced to pain like many I saw at my old barn definitely would make perfect candidates for euthanasia. But euthanizing a 4-legged sound animal who simply cannot do the task at hand is absurd, I believe. That is why you sell a horse, because it cannot compete at your desired level. Then again there are a lot of rehab projects that are basement bargains, bounce back and perform like a 6-figure horse.

But it is very, very “uncool” to unload your injured burden on some unsuspecting buyer who innocently thinks they can breathe life into a horse. That’s what happened to my other friend and he died 4 months later because the owner AND the owner’s vet who did the initial PPE misrepresented the injury and by the time the truth was revealed it was too late, he couldn’t go faster than a walk, and soon wouldn’t be able to even leave his stall. I know another woman who has a LITERAL 3 legged horse. His fetlock fractured in 10 places and she refuses to put him down because she cannot bear the thought of being without him, but he literally walks on 3 legs and is in constant pain…

[Scribbler]

The point I was trying to make was simply that it is wise practice to have a PPE at every price point, including free, to save yourself and the horse you buy a great deal of misery. You need the horse to be servicably sound for the work you want it to do, now and in future. Obviously a properly healed injury counts as servicably sound. But even in that case, you need to know what the injury was to evaluate how to manage the horse in the future.

OP, every anecdote that you relate just makes it clearer how important a PPE is, and how what sellers say about their horses cannot be totally trusted, whether they are lying on purpose or just unaware of issues with the horse. As I said, if you buy someone else’s problem, you end up at best with limited use of your horse, at worst with having to euth a horse that is in constant pain.

I see so many red flags here in relation to all the horse professionals mentioned, my last suggestion would be get out of that barn, that context, that world and into a new training situation where you can have more trust in the people you hire to advise and teach you.

[IPEsq]

Yes, a hunter’s hump can simply be a cosmetic blemish due to past injury that is no longer an issue. But we have also said it could indicate an active problem and could be associated with problems elsewhere in the body. If the horse is out of shape and underweight, appearing to have had some extended time off, and a history of vein ornery, I would be hesitant to proceed with the horse without more information. SI trouble can show up as lameness. Or not. It can show up instead as extreme bucking fits at canter. Or a refusal to go forward. Or other ornery behaviors. You might also get that from stifle problems which could be related to the hunter’s bump.

Or, because he is underweight, perhaps he doesn’t have one at all, but rather just the current appearance of one. In which case, was his behavior still physical in nature? Does he have, for example, kissing spines or neck problems, foot soreness, inflamed suspensories, the list can go on and on. And some of those things might appear better on a rested, underweight horse.

Or perhaps the horse is just one with a screw loose and that’s why he is cheap. In any event, a PPE type exam that checks respiration, heart, eyes, neurologic function, and includes a lameness exam would help put your friend down the right path with this horse to figure out what the root of his issues are and whether he may need some medical treatment or rehabilitative exercise regimen in order to try to go back to work. There are a million areas between perfectly sound and sane and 3 legged lame that can cause major behavioral issues. I’ve got one of those, despite an extensive PPE. What some horses put up with to be useful and serviceably sound, there is another horse who is entirely intolerant of that discomfort. And it may not show up as a clinical lameness. I have very lengthy threads on my own struggle with this. Considering the horse has a history of undesirable behaviors, for your friend’s safety, some further evaluation is not a bad idea.

[x-halt-salute]

@thecolorcoal

It’s not unheard of where I am from for owners to skip a PPE if the trainer swears on his/her grave the horse is sound.

I seem to recall from another thread that you are in the Bay Area. It is most certainly not a regional trait of the Bay Area that experienced owners skip a PPE in favor of a trainer’s promise of soundness. Not even the pure pleasure riders I know in the Bay would buy a horse they expect to do a few years of sound trail riding with without a PPE. If your young friend is aiming at 4* eventing and doesn’t have anyone in her corner smart enough to realize that a PPE is a good idea for any horse expected to perform at that level, let alone a fire-sale priced youngster, she’s in for a world of hurt.

@thecolorcoal

I encouraged them to buy this horse because a DWB in the low thousands is unheard of, especially as a youngster with brimming potential.

DING DING DING DING DING! That’s the alarm bell that would have been going off in the mind of anyone experienced in buying or selling horses. Young, well-bred horses who are actually brimming with potential do not sell for low thousands. All young prospects are a gamble, but young prospects with dodgy training records and low, low prices should set off sirens and send all but the most shrewd and risk-tolerant buyers running. Sounds like you gave some questionable advice.

@thecolorcoal

Why must a horse’s value be placed on what they can provide for an owner?

Frankly, most horse people have goals, whether they are performance-based or recreational. And most horse people cannot afford to support one or more unsound horses and still have sufficient funds left to indulge in a riding life with another horse. Of course a beloved equine companion has plenty of remaining emotional value to an owner, should they become permanently unsound. But they probably do not have much value to other people. It’s an unfortunately reality that the intrinsic economic value of an equine life, excluding emotional attachments and recreational/performance value, is not very high. I have the utmost respect for individuals and organizations who provide soft landings for horses who wind up getting passed along until they hold neither economic nor emotional value to their owners. But most individual riders cannot afford to take on a horse purely on the premise that they may eventually become deeply emotionally attached to it.

@thecolorcoal

I get it is done, but if shop for love first, usefulness later, because I need to have some emotional investment in the creature if I am going to be supporting it for its entire life.

How easy are you? It takes me more than a couple dates to fall for someone, and likewise more than a couple of awkward trial rides at a seller’s facility to decide that a horse is the four-legged love of my life. The way horse sales tend to work, it is extremely rare to have enough time with an animal before purchase to be certain that the horse is a perfect fit personality-wise. ‘Shopping for love’ is a notion that is simply incompatible with the way the majority of the equestrian world works. Nor does evaluating performance or vetting a potential purchase horse preclude the development of a personal connection. This isn’t an either/or dichotomy.

@thecolorcoal

I don’t think that a “lame” horse is in “chronic pain.” … There is “structurally unsound” and then there is “usability unsound.” … I believe this horse is usability unsound for this young rider, NOT structurally unsound.

Nobody seems to have made any attempt to vet this horse’s injury in order to determine whether he can comfortably do what the girl is asking of him. And in previous threads you’ve made quite a lot of excuses for why you are unwilling to pursue further diagnostics on your own horse. The range of perspectives on horses, pain, and our responsibilities as owners to manage that pain is incredibly varied. But your description here and in other posts does not suggest that you fall on the pain-averse side of the spectrum.
The horseperson who’s never had an injured horse has essentially won the lottery, so rare is that luck. Nobody is suggesting that horses with prior injuries don’t deserve a recovery and return to work; only that a responsible horse owner will use all the information they can get about that injury to ensure that what they’re asking of the horse is appropriate and that they’re taking appropriate measures to avoid pain or reinjury.

@thecolorcoal

I think that the part everyone is missing is he IS sound. All four legs in working order. No pain as of this moment.

I can tell you from both literally and figuratively painful experiences that being able to perform at a certain level doesn’t mean a horse (or human) is not extremely uncomfortable doing so. The line between being offered a job and being forced to do a job is finer than you seem to realize. There’s no accusation of cruelty here, only a wake-up call to the fact that prey species tend to be extremely stoic and pain can be present without obvious gait irregularity.

@thecolorcoal

But euthanizing a 4-legged sound animal who simply cannot do the task at hand is absurd, I believe. That is why you sell a horse, because it cannot compete at your desired level. Then again there are a lot of rehab projects that are basement bargains, bounce back and perform like a 6-figure horse.

Simultaneously railing against horse slaughter and euthanasia for unworkable horses is an untenable position. Again, in the kingdom of make-believe an unknown, unsound horse might have emotional value to a stranger. But in the real world that horse is headed to auction (perhaps after bouncing around a few unrealistically hopeful homes), where he will be sold at meat price, loaded on a trailer to Mexico, and forced to endure a pretty unpleasant end. I see no problem with euthanizing an apparently sound, but untrainable or unrideable horse rather than sending them down a path that is likely to end with a long, thirsty haul and a captive bolt. And I say that as someone who rides a $0 salvage project horse who was a euthanasia candidate at multiple points and has ended up outperforming plenty of 5-figure horses. I wouldn’t have taken on my current horse had I not been prepared to consider euthanasia in the absence of crippling low-limb lameness, or willing to pursue diagnostics for non-gait-related unsoundness.

@thecolorcoal

It sucks that this horse is such a nice warmblood and his abilities may top out before he’s even begun his career…

That might suck for your friend, but the horse has no idea what his breeding is, or what potential people see in him. Again, I think it comes down to experience to realize that pedigree isn’t destiny. I hope you and your young friend both learn some valuable lessons from this disappointing experience.