Talk to Me about Hunters Bump.

[thecolorcoal]

I seem to recall from another thread that you are in the Bay Area. It is most certainly not a regional trait of the Bay Area that experienced owners skip a PPE in favor of a trainer’s promise of soundness. Not even the pure pleasure riders I know in the Bay would buy a horse they expect to do a few years of sound trail riding with without a PPE. If your young friend is aiming at 4* eventing and doesn’t have anyone in her corner smart enough to realize that a PPE is a good idea for any horse expected to perform at that level, let alone a fire-sale priced youngster, she’s in for a world of hurt.

simple solution is to drop the 4* dreams until they are financially stable to afford a 4* horse.

DING DING DING DING DING! That’s the alarm bell that would have been going off in the mind of anyone experienced in buying or selling horses. Young, well-bred horses who are actually brimming with potential do not sell for low thousands. All young prospects are a gamble, but young prospects with dodgy training records and low, low prices should set off sirens and send all but the most shrewd and risk-tolerant buyers running. Sounds like you gave some questionable advice.

disagree. some people don’t see the potential in some horses, some do. snowman was a good example. same with seabiscuit. pick any underdog and that refutes your argument. they are rare but they are still out there.

Frankly, most horse people have goals, whether they are performance-based or recreational. And most horse people cannot afford to support one or more unsound horses and still have sufficient funds left to indulge in a riding life with another horse. Of course a beloved equine companion has plenty of remaining emotional value to an owner, should they become permanently unsound. But they probably do not have much value to other people. It’s an unfortunately reality that the intrinsic economic value of an equine life, excluding emotional attachments and recreational/performance value, is not very high. I have the utmost respect for individuals and organizations who provide soft landings for horses who wind up getting passed along until they hold neither economic nor emotional value to their owners. But most individual riders cannot afford to take on a horse purely on the premise that they may eventually become deeply emotionally attached to it.

then don’t buy the unsound ones… it sounds like i’m agreeing with you but i’m not. don’t buy a liability unless you are 100% prepared to take responsibility for it. and those who are like me and my friend should not be shamed for doing so. most likely what will happen is he will be sold on, if she does not develop a bond with him. if she does, like she has with her first horse who also did not work out, she will keep him, regardless of his use.

How easy are you? It takes me more than a couple dates to fall for someone, and likewise more than a couple of awkward trial rides at a seller’s facility to decide that a horse is the four-legged love of my life. The way horse sales tend to work, it is extremely rare to have enough time with an animal before purchase to be certain that the horse is a perfect fit personality-wise. ‘Shopping for love’ is a notion that is simply incompatible with the way the majority of the equestrian world works. Nor does evaluating performance or vetting a potential purchase horse preclude the development of a personal connection. This isn’t an either/or dichotomy.

that is incredibly rude, and I am not at all. horses leave me single with no desire for humans. i don’t look, i don’t inquire, i don’t buy unless i am 100% certain I want the horse. Same with clothes, same with food, same with anything. Unless i know for a FACT i want something or I can make lemons out of lemonade I will not even bother trying. If I can’t see myself owning any animal for its entire lifespan I just walk right by it. She was my very first. Forgive me for having been excited.

Nobody seems to have made any attempt to vet this horse’s injury in order to determine whether he can comfortably do what the girl is asking of him. And in previous threads you’ve made quite a lot of excuses for why you are unwilling to pursue further diagnostics on your own horse. The range of perspectives on horses, pain, and our responsibilities as owners to manage that pain is incredibly varied. But your description here and in other posts does not suggest that you fall on the pain-averse side of the spectrum.
The horseperson who’s never had an injured horse has essentially won the lottery, so rare is that luck. Nobody is suggesting that horses with prior injuries don’t deserve a recovery and return to work; only that a responsible horse owner will use all the information they can get about that injury to ensure that what they’re asking of the horse is appropriate and that they’re taking appropriate measures to avoid pain or reinjury.

I think that if several vets are against the idea of delving deeper due to financial concerns AND lack of evidence there is no reason to put yourself in a money pit only to have no conclusive answers. For example, I find it ridiculous when people jump to ulcers as the baseline for bad behavior and suggest people spend hundreds on scoping. Why not spend half of that on ranitidine? If it works, it works. If not, it’s not ulcers. Simple, cheap, and doesn’t lead to more tests a vet may pressure you into. If the horse is showing NO signs of pain, why continue to chase the zebra? If this horse is healed, why DO extensive tests? What does it matter?

I can tell you from both literally and figuratively painful experiences that being able to perform at a certain level doesn’t mean a horse (or human) is not extremely uncomfortable doing so. The line between being offered a job and being forced to do a job is finer than you seem to realize. There’s no accusation of cruelty here, only a wake-up call to the fact that prey species tend to be extremely stoic and pain can be present without obvious gait irregularity.

I agree, but you also have to know the animal. Some are stoic, some are vocal. If a horse is taken seriously 100% of the time it is more likely to be honest and try and communicate with its owner about discomfort. If it is shut down for any form of resistance of any kind it is less likely to express it’s discomfort/pain for fear of reprimand. That’s a no brainer.

Simultaneously railing against horse slaughter and euthanasia for unworkable horses is an untenable position. Again, in the kingdom of make-believe an unknown, unsound horse might have emotional value to a stranger. But in the real world that horse is headed to auction (perhaps after bouncing around a few unrealistically hopeful homes), where he will be sold at meat price, loaded on a trailer to Mexico, and forced to endure a pretty unpleasant end. I see no problem with euthanizing an apparently sound, but untrainable or unrideable horse rather than sending them down a path that is likely to end with a long, thirsty haul and a captive bolt. And I say that as someone who rides a $0 salvage project horse who was a euthanasia candidate at multiple points and has ended up outperforming plenty of 5-figure horses. I wouldn’t have taken on my current horse had I not been prepared to consider euthanasia in the absence of crippling low-limb lameness, or willing to pursue diagnostics for non-gait-related unsoundness.

I am not rallying. I’m pro-slaughter for culls, for horses who are genetically deformed in some way, not for the animals who can’t win blue ribbons.

That might suck for your friend, but the horse has no idea what his breeding is, or what potential people see in him. Again, I think it comes down to experience to realize that pedigree isn’t destiny. I hope you and your young friend both learn some valuable lessons from this disappointing experience.

Waste of money to buy a nice horse only to have it sit in a pasture. Same as it’s a waste of money to buy a Ferrari and never drive it over 60 mph. Ferrari owner may be happy to have a ferrari, sure, but why not buy a toyota corolla instead? More economical.

It is not up to you to decide how someone should care for their animals. It is not up to you to decide how someone should parent their kids. It is not up to you to decide how someone should raise and train their pets. My friend and I BOUGHT OUR HORSES for our own reasons. You don’t get to say it was a bad decision if the both of us are happy.

All I wanted to know is whether or not this horse would be a 4* horse. IF NOT, ok! Great, at least we know for sure. At least we can lower our expectations and see things in a realistic light rather than push him to to point where he WILL become so unsound he has to be retired or euthanized!

I don’t need a vet to tell me that. I can find it out on the internet, comparing case studies and get the average success rate, then compare it to her horse and decide with a conservative evaluation if it’s possible or not.

I boarded at a barn where every. single. horse. had soundness issues and every. single. horse was ridden to its fullest potential. it was a 150+ horse ranch. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. had something wrong with it. MyBubble of A-Circuit show horse understanding was harshly popped when I boarded my horse there. I have a new understanding that not everyone needs a 100% functioning animal to be happy.

I never thought sharing how I got my horse would hit me with so much backlash. I prepared for a “that’s so incredible that it worked out for you!” reaction, not a “you idiot what were you thinking?” reaction. I’ve never apologized nor said I regretted my decision. I’ve never once inclined I am purposefully forcing my horse to suffer so that I get joy. I don’t understand why my case is so uniquely highlighted in negatives. I am a pessimistic person, yes, but it is only because I want to have the worst-case scenario given to me. Then I know how to avoid it. My vet said sharp turns might injure her. Ok, good to know. Showjumping and barrel racing are out. She isn’t sound without shoes. Ok, then I’ll never have her barefoot. She needs cold hosing after every ride. Fine, can do, not a problem. Treat swelling seriously. Awesome, invested in some expensive poultice and stable bandages. Don’t jump extensively and no higher than whatever she can manage without tendon flareups. Yes ma’am, I’ll watch for any lameness or heat and swelling so we know we’ve passed our threshold. She needs a custom saddle. Ok, got a fitter out. She needs an expensive half-pad. Bought. Lameness exams twice a year to monitor for unsoundness. Alright, that’s all fine. Joint supplements for potential arthritis. Ok, that’s in her smartpak.

I do NOT consider that a burden. Why would anyone consider that a burden? I get to have an amazing equine partner and personality, all it takes is extra maintenance.

[Scribbler]

@thecolorcoal

Maybe what I am getting hung up on is the money.

you look at a horse for $1000. You order a PPE. Having the X Ray machine out is quoted as $500, every X Ray is 20. You X Ray all 4 legs, 4 X rays each, X Ray the back. Sedation is $40. You also ultrasound, machine is $300 dollars. Then you scope for ulcers. That is another $500 dollars. Flex tests are $180. Add on top the farm call of $85. Hoof testers is $50. more X rays of the neck, $100. X Ray the Hooves, $200. Check the teeth, $160. By the time you are done you are in the 3,000 range. Tests come back with an issue, you don’t buy. Well, there goes your entire budget on buying a horse! Can’t afford one now because you spent 3,000 on tests on a 4-legged sound horse who ended up having arthritis in his neck. He was a 4 year old. You could have afforded him at 1,000, but now you are 3,000 out on a horse you aren’t even buying. (this is what EVERYTHING was quoted to me when I took my horse on trial. I only had $1000 to spend on the horse and we only did a $500 PPE that was a huge waste of money).

i can’t justify that. It’s cheaper to buy the horse and give it adequan.

cheaper for me to lower my expectations and change disciplines than spend $20,000 on a perfectly sound 14 year old animal who only had 5 years left of use.

Cheaper for friend to lower her expectations and change her showing needs.

maybe you can’t sympathize but when your horse budget is only $2,000 max you make due with broken down ottb’s and dried up warmbloods until you win the lottery or can marry a rich husband.

OP, you just told a story about some poor fool that was sold a horse with a broken leg that never healed. That is not something that can be solved with Adequan. Indeed, Adequan is only effective on a narrow range of arthritis conditions, It is hardly a cure all. It isn’t a pain killer, either. It is however something that could have been avoided with a little knowledgable advice.

This is how a reasonably savvy person buys a horse.

You go to see the horse. You decide if it looks sound to you. If that isn’t something you can tell confidently, you bring a reliable mentor with you.

If the horse looks obviously unsound to the naked eye then you walk away. If the horse is not right for your program you walk away.

You only run a PPE on a horse that appears sound, that you enjoy riding, and that you are seriously considering buying.

You don’t need to do the full range of rads on every horse. You don’t need to vet a free horse like he is a $100,000 horse. You can’t predict the future in any case. But OP you have been giving us a series of stories about people who bought horses that have potentially serious physical problems that were easy enough to see, and that a vet could easily have advised on. They will be out far more than the PPE price when all is said and done.

This may include your horse, I am not quite sure. Personally, I would see the uneven angles on the front hooves and the roach back as red flags and I wouldn’t have done a PPE because I wouldn’t have wanted to take on multiple possible weaknesses front and back. And you say that you did a PPE, it uncovered problems, but you bought the horse for half price. So your PPE was indeed useful in that it turned up problems that weren’t visible to you the buyer initially?

Obviously we all make compromises when we buy a horse, and there is no perfect horse. Obviously if our expectations are unrealistic, the market will knock us down to size. No, I am not going to be able to go out and buy an 8 year old Gran Prix horse for $5000. But IME you can’t do anything if the horse is unsound. That’s why I rank soundness above training and breeding.

I hang out at the low end of nice horses. Lots of OTTB and STB off the local tracks, QH, WB. Quite a few folks training up late-started horses that fell through the cracks somehow. Projects and rehabs and rescues. People buying better-quality horses young and green to train up. And the trickiest thing to fix is a persistent soundness issue.

Training can be fixed. Good training can make a rather ordinary horse move and perform much better than you’d ever thought possible. Behavior problems can usually be worked through. But you can’t do any of this if half the time, horse is laid up on stall rest. Chronic pain creates behavior problems, and chronic unsoundness that is not at the level of pain nonetheless affects how a horse moves and balances.

If you buy a sound and sane horse with solid conformation, and you ride it in a way that builds it up rather than breaking it down, it will usually stay sound baring some catastrophic accident. IME, the blown hocks and stifles, the suspensory injuries, founder, navicular, tend to have strong correlation with certain modes of riding a horse or managing a horse.

As far as what to do with a budget of $2000 or less, around here that will get you a sound OTTB that does however need retraining, which you might or might not feel comfortable undertaking. It will get you a semi-permanent free lease of a nicer low level show horse belonging to a girl going off to college. It will get you a very solid STB but you will need to teach him to canter! It can get you a fallen through the cracks horse out of a pasture, or a very nice broodmare who needs to be restarted. It can get you a green broke QH of very nice build. I suppose the biggest thing if you are on a budget, is you need to be capable of being able to constructively take the lead on schooling a horse. You need to be able to improve a horse.

And as far as the budget of $2000, well you either pay up front for the health, quality, and training, or you pay along the way to buy training or for vet bills to manage the health problems. Adequan and ulcerguard and corrective shoeing etc are not cheap and will add up to thousands over a few years.

If you can’t afford to buy a sound, rideable horse, and you aren’t yet capable of training a green horse, you are much better off continuing in a half-lease situation on a good solid horse that you could never afford otherwise.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler, ok, define sound. Obviously my definition is not suitable. Soundness to me is an even gait, no missteps. Soundness to me is not clean x-rays but still moving well. Soundness to me is old injuries that don’t inhibit the 4-beat walk, 2-beat trot and 3-beat canter.

My friend’s 14 year old eventer has 2 front bows and is competing prelim. OTTB. No hitch in step.

My other friend’s eventer had a severed suspensory and went up to intermediate. ISH. No hitch in step.

Another friend’s horse has 1 bowed tendon and is starting his eventing career. OTTB. No hitch in step.

Another friend has an ex-reiner who injured her hocks at 5. She is now a competitive trail horse. QH. No hitch in step.

Another friend has a 20 y/o unsound horse who she still trail rides (I disagree with her decision but the horse seems unharmed). Arab. Hitch in step.

Another friend who has a horse with 2 clubbed feet and 2 laminitic hinds. Managed with shoes. Unsound. Still rides and is in denial about situation. QH. Major hitch in step.

So then what is unsoundness to you? Obviously we have different definitions, as I always went off the traditional gait-soundness, not the internal soundness or mental soundness.

A :sound" OTTB, unraced or raced without injury in my area is at least 3500.

And I agree… you either pay the extra up front or along the way. But I still feel more comfortable paying along the way. I’d rather patch up an old house that had good bones than buy a “sound” house that i didn’t really like but could move in right away.

as for my friend, I do hope the trainer represented this horse correctly. The hunter’s bump scared me.

This may include your horse, I am not quite sure. Personally, I would see the uneven angles on the front hooves and the roach back as red flags and I wouldn’t have done a PPE because I wouldn’t have wanted to take on multiple possible weaknesses front and back. And you say that you did a PPE, it uncovered problems, but you bought the horse for half price. So your PPE was indeed useful in that it turned up problems that weren’t visible to you the buyer initially?

Yes, it was useful so that I knew exactly what I was dealing with. It was not useful in predicting her longevity/usefulness because all the premonitions the vet thought were/would be linked to this one particular injury have never manifested. In fact, that right front has NEVER, ever given us any problems. Her back, on the other hand, something the vet did not even comment on, has. She is my first horse. I didn’t have the eye back then that I have now. However without this horse I would never have the experience to know what good from bad looks like. I simply never learned/never was in an environment that taught conformation or anything about injury.

Im not going to go and say “PPE’s are worthless” because that’s not true. A PPE is a good thing, but I disagree a PPE needs to be a deciding factor. Get a PPE to know what you are up against and what you are dealing with. In my case, the PPE revealed an old leg injury that I need to monitor. It also shows she is a perma-shod horse and can’t manage barefoot, ever. Without the PPE I probably would have pushed for barefoot and I may have been more careless about taking care of her legs. the PPE gave me awareness, but it did not sway my decision to buy. The horse was mine the minute I saw her ad.

The point I was trying to make was simply that it is wise practice to have a PPE at every price point, including free, to save yourself and the horse you buy a great deal of misery. You need the horse to be servicably sound for the work you want it to do, now and in future. Obviously a properly healed injury counts as servicably sound. But even in that case, you need to know what the injury was to evaluate how to manage the horse in the future.

And I think I agreed with you there, referencing my paragraph above this quoted piece. A PPE is good to know what you are working with and whether or not you are willing to work with it. And now that you’ve clarified that no, you don’t have to go into the thousands for a PPE, I can get behind it.

But hearing and reading stories of people insisting everyone needs every single cell of their new horse looked in a microscope blows my mind and gets me upset, understandably.

And I am going to finally say that I bow my head and agree this horse should have at least been scrutinized a little more carefully. I looked at him today and I saw what might be bowed tendons in the fronts… set, of course, but my goodness… hope it was just that he’s got some feathers and I was seeing things… He’s started cribbing too. Maybe some under the hood investigative work can spare him the unsympathetic training he is about to endure with the owner’s trainer…

The reason I am so concerned is because I KNOW the history of this trainer. She chews horses up and spits them out. I can totally see her damaging him, either in the past or in the future, if she was in fact his trainer from being broke until now.

[halt]

Others touched base on this already but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in… In my experience a hunter’s bump is normally workload related, and the ridge you see is usually scarring of the ligaments around the SI. It’s worth noticing that some horses, especially if underweight, can show a prominence that does not necessarily equal that it is currently an existing problem.

My other two cents is that I think that hunter’s bumps are usually caused by improper shoeing/trims behind, exacerbated by workload. Thirdly, some conformation traits make hunter’s bumps, in my opinion, more likely to form: straight hind end conformation, goose rumped conformation, and upright pasterns.

The other thing about “sound” with Hunters bump… the SI is funny - not all horses with SI pathology will be outwardly “lame” only because they stride short with both legs so they appear even-strided, even though they are off it is not as perceptible because they are equally protecting both legs… I don’t find SI pain to always = lameness… I’ve said it before but my gelding’s SI under film was very bad - so bad you could actually see the inflammation on the x-rays… but he had passed several vet lameness evaluations and flexions well before we got to the SI (SI trauma caused by improper saddle fit). We knew something was wrong because he was violently bucking, but he was sound the entire time.

As far as whether or not I would pursue a horse with hunter’s bump… unless that horse had 4+ years of a consistent show record with no gaps or spaces in competition, I would not buy the horse. I think that is an area that is very hard to fix once it is inflamed/affected and it tends to cause other ligaments/tendons in the hind end to snowball and aggravate. In general the SI in the horse is so poorly understood at the moment, but it’s kind of like “no hoof, no horse”… if the SI is out of wonk the rest of the body will have a very hard time… That and I think that hunter’s bump is like fever rings in a way - by the time it shows up, the damage is already done and you are looking at the aftermath. Therapeutic approaches for hunter’s bumps are expensive, as well: chiro, mesotherapy, injections, corrective shoeing, etc… You have to stay on top of these horses therapeutically, chiro is a huge help but also a very slowly progressive workload that gets the horse to strengthen its topline which so few people are truly able to do… I generally as a rule will not buy a horse that has past SI related injuries. It’s too much of a gamble.

[IPEsq]

There are some nice horses to be had at fire sale prices, but an investigation into history and reasons for selling and at least baseline exams are a wise move. Anyone who has $1000 purchase budget and no PPE budget, much less can’t afford to walk away from a horse they spend money on for the PPE should not own a horse. Lease maybe but not own. If the horse is not suitable, it costs thousands just to feed it and provide real estate in a lot of areas in this country. If there is a medical issue that requires special shoes or otherwise, the costs go up and up for a horse that still might not be useable. The person with the $1000 budget who has this other horse to care for most surely can’t afford another horse. The people who take on horse flipping projects and seek out the $1000 horses for rehab, training and sales do this knowing the gamble, and they may take some losses as part of the business of doing this. Even if the horse is useable, managing an issue can get very expensive. For most of the horses with an issue on the PPE that’s a deal breaker, you don’t get to the full $$$ cost. You see that issue, you stop the exam and walk away.

You talk a lot about bowed tendons. It’s quite common for OTTBs with bows to have good careers in other jobs. The vet can usually assess an old bow without extensive diagnostics. Maybe by feeling around for 20 seconds and jogging the horse.

However, the questions raised with your friend’s horse are not so simple or clear cut. There are a lot of open questions that we can only speculate about without seeing the horse or knowing it’s history. All we see are a few big red flags.

i suppose the clearest answer to the question of whether a 5 year old WB who has done nothing, may have a visible defect, and may have a history of behavior problems can do 4*? None of us can predict that future. Follow up questions about diagnostics and the horse’s history are reasonable, and so we wondered why your friend didn’t have those questions as well before taking on a horse if money is such an issue.

[x-halt-salute]

@thecolorcoal

All I wanted to know is whether or not this horse would be a 4* horse. IF NOT, ok! Great, at least we know for sure. At least we can lower our expectations and see things in a realistic light rather than push him to to point where he WILL become so unsound he has to be retired or euthanized!

I don’t need a vet to tell me that. I can find it out on the internet, comparing case studies and get the average success rate, then compare it to her horse and decide with a conservative evaluation if it’s possible or not.

Oh, sweet child! It’s adorable that you think the internet has all the answers. Here’s one answer I can provide for you via the internet: you’re not going to recruit cheerleaders by getting defensive every time someone suggests that a question you’ve posted would be better answered by a vet who has examined the horse in question. You can stop being puzzled about why nobody is saying “that’s so incredible that it worked out for you!”

Nobody is saying you and your compatriot made bad decisions, either (read for comprehension, friend). Only you and your teen pal can decide that. You’ve asked for people on the internet to give you a yes or no about this horse’s potential to do high level eventing, and elsewhere on this forum to weigh in on your own horse’s issues. Responses by experienced equestrians who’ve been down the roads you point to have noted that the outward signs of injury exhibited by this horse and your own may be associated with a wide range of conditions and outcomes. That soundness means more than 4 good legs. That SI and thoracolumbar issues in horses can impede performance/comfort without obvious gait irregularity. And – close your eyes, you might not want to read this next bit – that the questions you’ve posed are best answered by a vet who can determine what is lurking beneath the surface for these individual horses.

You and your friend seem to have valued ‘love’, breeding and low pricetags over soundness in making your buying decisions. Most experienced equestrians work through the buying process a bit differently, but as long as you and your horses are happy it doesn’t matter. However, you’ve described some pretty unfortunate situations that might have been avoided by assigning a higher priority to soundness (the horse bought with a broken leg). People are offering you their perspectives on horse buying not to incriminate you, but to demonstrate that there’s another way to do things that might prevent all of the hand-wringing about pre-existing injuries next time. Not everyone is going to sugar-coat their advice to make it more palatable to a young citizen of the web, nor are they going to change their tune about veterinary involvement if you keep posting questions that no responsible horseperson would presume to answer without it.

[thecolorcoal]

@x-halt-salute , thanks, i guess most wish they were younger the older they get, haha! I hope I’m not implying I want support, just that I was shocked that the general attitude of my friends and acquaintances was so… unsupportive. And I didn’t get this horse for vanity reasons. Same reason I got my gosh darn sommer jumping saddle that is extremely ugly and a huge eyesore: It fit my horse and I didn’t want to spend more time shopping.

It is very emotionally draining to look, get attached, and have to return. I knew this horse had no fate if it wasn’t with me. She would most definitely be taken to auction and die. The risk was not having a sound riding horse, the reward was if she did in fact work not only was she a bargain but she might have potential to be something. The reward was greater than the risk, in my unique situation.

If I did this again? No way would I do the same thing. I have my heart horse, now I can be picky and more scrutinizing, but the guilt of sending a perfectly capable animal away for any kind of reason is almost too much to cope with, and that is why I won’t look at anything unless i am at least 99-100% sure I want it.

I am a child of the “must have it now” generation, I confess.

I think what I am really struggling to fathom and overcome is the fact that a vet is a professional but they also run a business. A business needs to take certain risks to flourish. I feel that, along with my dog and cat experience, vets will push expensive procedures that are not really required in order to get money from their clients. Those who have not experienced this are lucky. It can be the same with doctors but insurance makes it more difficult for them to abuse their patients. I have never had a vet, chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, etc. for a horse who I fully trusted, because I know the motive behind everything is money. That’s how I ended up with my saddle: fitter assured me nothing else would fit, and I am still paying off the credit card bills… If I had been more suspicious and less desperate I would not have bought the saddle.

So here, my friend, is a good question for you: regarding the horse with a fractured canon bone, the one who died 4 months after being purchased because the horse’s original vet lied about his condition (again, to make a quick sale. You could argue she should have brought her own vet but the owner promised promised promised he would heal perfectly). According to my friend’s vet who DID follow up with her and did 2 sets of x-rays 6 months apart, had old owner managed injury better and had racetrack managed injury better there would have been a chance he would have healed perfectly. It was a gamble to take on a 1500 horse. Like me, friend was tired of shopping around and more or less settled on this animal. Even though he passed away on her dime, I am not sure she’d change a thing because of how much joy on the ground he gave her, just with his personality alone. He was akin to a giant dog, not a riding animal as even if the stars had aligned his usefulness was very limited.

She saw doing the same thing worked for me, and thought it could work for her, too. Unfortunately, it didn’t, but I am not sure that justifies why she should never have tried in the first place. The horse was either going to be taken to the meat man or spend his last few days being loved by another.

So the question is: when is a risk too big a risk? If you can foresee a repair, a successful rehab, do you still buy the horse even if there is a chance it could all go south? IMO, I think that is up to the individual, but there seems to be a running theme that there is a baseline soundness that everyone needs to go for and if that is not met the horse, universally, should not be purchased.

But what happens to that horse? Does he go to auction? Suffer at the hands of meat buyers to die a slow agonizing death? Or does someone with a kind conscience and a little extra money take him in, care for him until he is in too much pain to keep alive? Sure, not everyone has that luxury or space but if you did, would you?

The horse with a hunter’s bump is a dutch warmblood. A teen friend of this teen is getting an ex-showjumper who she brags can jump 1.50m (for a 14 year old girl who NEEDS that much horse?!?!?), i think there’s some “i have a better horse than you” going on, too, which is why friend is keeping this boy.

@halt - he seems to be in better weight now and the bump is still very prominent. It makes his blankets tent up around his croup…

I agree with you on horse’s reactions to pain. When my horse had back soreness, she was sound in the beginning but bucking violently. We found out the farrier was screwing up on her back feet as well as bad saddle fit, causing her to compensate. It simply hurt to walk. But I didn’t get x-rays, I didn’t even do a formal lameness exam. I changed farriers and everything was fixed.

Now, you could say “but how do you know without imaging???” well, if a = b and b = c, than a = c. If the bad farrier led to sore feet which led to bucking, then the farrier was the cause of the bucking. Change farriers, change shoeing, the bucking stops, which means the soreness stops. I don’t see why you need x-rays to confirm what you already know.

At the end of the day these owners are extremely ignorant and I feel for them, because I wanted to stick my fingers in my ears and tone out every person giving their well-meaning concern for my horse. I’ve come around a bit more than I had before, but I know how insulting and hurtful it is for someone to accuse another of making a bad buy. Instead of “would have, could have, should have,” shouldn’t we/they/people just deal with what they’ve got and figure out how to make it work?

And yes i KNOW that not everyone wants to be strapped with an animal that cannot compete to their desired level but… would it be so bad, if the horse had redeeming qualities, to keep it and lower your showing level just until you can afford another one? I’m struggling to understand why that is unreasonable.

You and your friend seem to have valued ‘love’, breeding and low pricetags over soundness in making your buying decisions.

I do, because the reality is a horse is only valuable until it no longer is. They can’t be ridden forever. They aren’t like dogs where, when they get older they can just lounge on the couch. You have to pay their own rent, their feed is expensive, and they are so massive and large that you can’t skimp out of certain aspects of vet care the way you can on a dog and cat. When a horse no longer can carry you on its back, you are still responsible for it 5-10 years until it passes away. So don’t you want to “love” the creature you are feeding and looking after rather than hold it in contempt because it no longer can provide the only value you saw in it, which was riding? If you see a horse for much, much more than a beast of burden, the money and the time won’t even be a concern.

Again, why spend a million dollars on a ferrari when you could buy a toyota corolla? Can’t go over the speed limit, ferrari is useless. Unless you are into parading your car around just for bragging rights, buying it is just a status symbol.

[x-halt-salute]

@thecolorcoal

@x-halt-salute , thanks, i guess most wish they were younger the older they get, haha!

Sick burn. But trust me, I wouldn’t trade my arthritis for a single drop of your naïveté. For those of us who can learn from our experiences and from the wisdom around us, life tends to get better as you go.

@thecolorcoal

I think what I am really struggling to fathom and overcome is the fact that a vet is a professional but they also run a business. A business needs to take certain risks to flourish. I feel that, along with my dog and cat experience, vets will push expensive procedures that are not really required in order to get money from their clients.

Do you feel that way about the chiropractor or massage therapist? Your saddle fitter? Your own human-medicine doctor? In this country pretty much all professional services are offered by businesses. A vet has no more reason to pad his practice’s income by pushing unnecessary services than the average human medical doctor or horse chiropractor, or any of the dozens of other service providers people interact with on a regular basis. Like MDs, DVMs take an oath and are are governed by a board that holds them to certain ethical standards in order to stay licensed. Are there dishonest vets (and doctors) out there? Sure. But they are a tiny minority of the practicing population. And the way around them is to get feedback from experienced equestrians who are familiar with all of the practices in your region and to be informed and prepared to advocate for your horse, not to assume all vets intend to extort you. If you’re that committed to your distrust of service-oriented business you may want to origami yourself a tinfoil hat right quick.

@thecolorcoal

So here, my friend, is a good question for you: regarding the horse with a fractured canon bone, the one who died 4 months after being purchased because the horse’s original vet lied about his condition (again, to make a quick sale.

Looks like the temper tantrum is over so I’m happy to have a conversation.

@thecolorcoal

You could argue she should have brought her own vet but the owner promised promised promised he would heal perfectly).

Well there’s the first headdesk.

@thecolorcoal

According to my friend’s vet who DID follow up with her and did 2 sets of x-rays 6 months apart, had old owner managed injury better and had racetrack managed injury better there would have been a chance he would have healed perfectly.

Sounds like even hindsight doesn’t give a 20/20 picture that this was a reasonable choice for a kid looking for a riding horse.

@thecolorcoal

It was a gamble to take on a 1500 horse. Like me, friend was tired of shopping around and more or less settled on this animal. Even though he passed away on her dime, I am not sure she’d change a thing because of how much joy on the ground he gave her, just with his personality alone. He was akin to a giant dog, not a riding animal as even if the stars had aligned his usefulness was very limited.

She saw doing the same thing worked for me, and thought it could work for her, too. Unfortunately, it didn’t, but I am not sure that justifies why she should never have tried in the first place. The horse was either going to be taken to the meat man or spend his last few days being loved by another.

Cool story. And such a happy ending. You should pitch it to the Hallmark Channel.

@thecolorcoal

So the question is: when is a risk too big a risk? If you can foresee a repair, a successful rehab, do you still buy the horse even if there is a chance it could all go south? IMO, I think that is up to the individual, but there seems to be a running theme that there is a baseline soundness that everyone needs to go for and if that is not met the horse, universally, should not be purchased.

Well a broken canon is pretty far below the baseline I’d set for soundness in a horse purchased with the intent of riding! We all know that most animals – humans, horses, dogs, whatever – who’ve been roaming this earth for a few years are not 100% perfectly sound. But there’s a world of difference between the horse that bowed on the track and has been sound in a new career for a couple of years, and the horse with an unhealed broken leg or a spinal injury of unknown nature/extent.

Your question about risk is nonsensical, because everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. I believe that’s part of your own argument. But I don’t think the buyers in your stories had the foggiest estimate of the sort of risk they were accepting, which makes their level of risk tolerance rather beside the point. If you would be content to spend a decade or two paying all the same bills you’d pay for a working horse without being able to ride, and if you can do due diligence on physical problems/pain management, and you can face the possibility that the new horse you’ve fallen in love with will need to be provided a humane end to its suffering sooner than later, then the sky is the limit as far as risk. If riding is an important part of your equestrian life, the reasonable risk ceiling is considerably lower. It sounds like you and friend realized you were gambling after the dice were rolled and now want to be congratulated with warm fuzzies for loving horses that turned out not to be suitable for your intended uses. Glad you’re happy but it doesn’t change my perspective on horse buying.

@thecolorcoal

But what happens to that horse? Does he go to auction? Suffer at the hands of meat buyers to die a slow agonizing death? Or does someone with a kind conscience and a little extra money take him in, care for him until he is in too much pain to keep alive? Sure, not everyone has that luxury or space but if you did, would you?

Yes. I would buy all the lame horses. And put them in my majikal pasture where they would eat only the greenest leprechaun-grown shamrocks and the fairies would dress their wounds with golden fleece and they would live out their days running free with the unicorns.

[Scribbler]

If you want to rescue a horse that is so crocked that no one else wants him, and spend your days handwalking and hanging out with him but never riding, that’s fine. I know several people who acquired older horses like this, who don’t want to ride anymore, and it’s sweet.

If you have some actual skills and ability in rehab, and want to take a chance rehabbing a horse with a specific injury and/or behavior problems, but can afford to keep the horse forever if the rehab doesn’t work, then buy a horse with some damage and see what happens. In that case though you need to let the horse’s needs drive your actions, so that you don’t press the horse into work, have him break down again, dump a lot of money on treatment, ride again, break down, etc etc. and then be worried about all sorts of cascading effects. I honestly wouldn’t recommend this course of action unless you have your own pasture and other horses to ride.

If you want to ride your horse, buy a horse that is servicably sound for the job you have in mind. Obviously that means able to do the job. If you want extra peace of mind, buy a horse that has no issues whatsoever and is sound for more than your specific job.

Love isn’t really at issue. Any horse that you ride and caretake, you will come to love. The better your partnership, the more adventures you have together, the more you will love the horse. I have never seen this not happen for a one-horse ammie, even when the horse is rather unsatisfactory.

The important thing is to be (a) clear on your own motives, goals and abilities and (b) clear on the limits of the particular horse you are looking at. This is the best way to get a good match. Getting expert advice is the best way to be clear on the limits of the horse.

Otherwise you will be down the rabbit hole of oh so many COTH threads, where the horse is intermittently sound, keeps breaking down in new but inter-related ways, and the rider keeps trying to get a certain performance level out of the horse (like trotting for five minutes under saddle) only to have everything fall apart again. Or the physical issues snowball into behavior issues.

It is absolutely false economy to buy a crocked horse with behavior problems because it has a fancy pedigree. That is like buying a Lamborghini with a cracked engine block. Except for a car, you can replace the engine for a cost. With horses, you can’t.

I am not talking about what we owe a horse that gets injured on your watch. IMO if you damaged it you are responsible for it for life.

I am talking about the choices we make about bringing a horse into our lives. There is a foolish snobbishness in buying a fancy bred but problematic horse over a good servicable appropriate riding horse. I realize people are seeing through designer rose coloured spectacles, so to speak. But they also think they are getting a bargain, because the horse costs so little. The thing is, they are not, because the horse costs so little because that is his fair price on the market. When my trainer friends pick up a fancy warmblood for $1 that last sold for $60,000, the price of $1 is indeed exactly what that horse is worth. That horse is no bargain unless he miraculously comes sound. Otherwise he is just a great big source of worry, and even a danger to the people who try to ride him and get bucked off.

Why do I say “snobbishness”? Because the motivating factor seems to be, buy this DWB because where else will you get the quality of horse that cheap? But if he is crocked then there is no quality. If he is crocked then a sturdy grade QH that will happily do everything you asked has more quality and more value, both cash value and use value.

[IPEsq]

Now I’m confused. Is this thread about saving horses from the meat man or about a horse that was purchased with goals of doing 4*?

[tazycat]

@IPEsq

Now I’m confused. Is this thread about saving horses from the meat man or about a horse that was purchased with goals of doing 4*?

Good question. Sounds like someone bought a high dollar horse for cheap. Cheap because it isn’t sound or ridable. They have places for horse’s like that it’s called Mexico.

[CindyCRNA]

@tazycat

Good question. Sounds like someone bought a high dollar horse for cheap. Cheap because it isn’t sound or ridable. They have places for horse’s like that it’s called Mexico.

I must have read wrong or skipped the wrong spots. I thought the horse in question was sound, has a hunter’s bump, MAY have some issues with being obstinate and/or willful and not a good match for the trainer who had him but may (or may not) possibly blossom with a loving owner. I think if the owner has goals of going 4 star but maybe not on this horse, who knows.

The only thing that makes me nervous is the budget. I am hoping the owner has enough bank roll to do this horse right. My chiro told me once about a new horse I had that was weak and had been ridden improperly by someone who hated him , “Ride this horse, build up strength and see what you have before you start injecting or spending a bunch on diagnostics”. This horse ended up blooming in a supportive environment by people who loved him. What was thought to be behavioral issues turned out to be a quirky personality that was funny, playful and a willing guy who was just not in the right environment.

[x-halt-salute]

@IPEsq

Now I’m confused. Is this thread about saving horses from the meat man or about a horse that was purchased with goals of doing 4*?

It started that way but I think OP needed to vent her frustrations a bit. Quick glance at her sig line blog shows that its first post treated the topic: “Those who rescue or buy crestfallen horses are not seen as heroes, they are seen as idiots.”

[Scribbler]

@CindyCRNA

I must have read wrong or skipped the wrong spots. I thought the horse in question was sound, has a hunter’s bump, MAY have some issues with being obstinate and/or willful and not a good match for the trainer who had him but may (or may not) possibly blossom with a loving owner. I think if the owner has goals of going 4 star but maybe not on this horse, who knows.

The only thing that makes me nervous is the budget. I am hoping the owner has enough bank roll to do this horse right. My chiro told me once about a new horse I had that was weak and had been ridden improperly by someone who hated him , “Ride this horse, build up strength and see what you have before you start injecting or spending a bunch on diagnostics”. This horse ended up blooming in a supportive environment by people who loved him. What was thought to be behavioral issues turned out to be a quirky personality that was funny, playful and a willing guy who was just not in the right environment.

As far as I can follow I think OP encouraged a young friend to buy a hard luck young dwb at a fire sale price sight unseen with the guidance of a dodgy trainer and no PPE. Young friend wants to ride 4* eventing but no indication from OP if this is fantasy or possibility. Dwb turned up with hidtory of bad behavior under saddle, funky SI and underweight. OP wants reassurance from COTH that the SI problems don’t matter. Also OPs own TB mare has funky SI, a funky hoof, and problems going forward under saddle (discussed on other threads).

COTH doesn’t really do reassurance just practical good advice about always looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I’ve said my practical advice a couple of times rephrasing it for clarity but I m probably about done with this thread

[tazycat]

@CindyCRNA

I must have read wrong or skipped the wrong spots. I thought the horse in question was sound, has a hunter’s bump, MAY have some issues with being obstinate and/or willful and not a good match for the trainer who had him but may (or may not) possibly blossom with a loving owner. I think if the owner has goals of going 4 star but maybe not on this horse, who knows.

The only thing that makes me nervous is the budget. I am hoping the owner has enough bank roll to do this horse right. My chiro told me once about a new horse I had that was weak and had been ridden improperly by someone who hated him , “Ride this horse, build up strength and see what you have before you start injecting or spending a bunch on diagnostics”. This horse ended up blooming in a supportive environment by people who loved him. What was thought to be behavioral issues turned out to be a quirky personality that was funny, playful and a willing guy who was just not in the right environment.

Definitely need the budget if you take on a horse with issues that require vet/chiro. …or whatever. Some are worth spending the money on some aren’t. If they are never going to be sound to ride…then one has to decide that horse’s future. Whether you PTS or send it to auction. Or keep it as a pasture pet. I know what I’d do with said horse.

Don’t know if said horse posted about is sound or not didn’t read entire thread. Sounds like there are issues though. Whatever the deal is hope it gets taken care of with proper vet care. And gets a proper diagnosis.

Seems to be a lot of threads about horses with soundness issses. Or some other issues body wise that cause behavior problems under saddle.

[Edre]

(Whee, holy wall of text batman. Sorry for the novel…)

To address a few things sincerely:

If your experience with vets is that they push unnecessary expenses, I implore you - shop around. Please. I don’t mean this in a patronizing way. There are always going to be options out there (and yes some of them might be less convenient - different scheduled hours, further away, more costly, etc) but there are a number of fantastic vets out there who did not enter the profession for the money. They are animal people, first and foremost, and want the very best for every animal they come across. I have a friend who is a tech at one of our specialized equine hospital locations and I hear all of the stories of how the techs, and vets, are distraught after losing a horse, or a terrible diagnosis. Finding a veterinary team that supports you and your horse is adding an invaluable member to your team. It’s well worth the effort of finding.

“When is a risk too big of a risk?”

This is one of those questions that you’ll run into as a horse person. Situations will come up when you’re faced with a tough decision, and you might seek advice from someone with more experience and go “what would you do”/“what should I do?” and, in my experience, they respond with “I can’t tell you what to do/what decision is right for you.” Risk assessment (and how you respond to the information you get after assessing) is intensely personal. What your resources (time, money, experience, location: these can all be a factor) are will ultimately determine what is the answer to “when is a risk too big of a risk?” What type of horse you have, what your goals are, what you long-term are willing to accept, will also help frame that answer. I had to face this twice this year. Early 2017 my horse ruptured his joint capsule in a freak accident. Recovery would require 6 months (MINIMUM) of stall rest/no turnout, just hand walking with no guarantee that he’d actually be ok after it. “Is this a risk worth taking?” I had to figure out how much money I was willing to spend (ultrasounds/vet visits to check progress), what my horse could tolerate (was he in pain? was the pain manageable? will his BRAIN survive 6 months of stall rest?), can I manage it safely for him, me, and everyone around us? Can I dedicate the time to this rehabilitation? Based on the information I had and assessed, it was worth a shot. We actually managed to bring him back successfully, although it’s unknown if he would ever have stayed sound under intense work. Unfortunately, in my other “risk assessment” scenario, we had a much less positive outcome and despite OK’ing surgical intervention for a colic (based on the information I had, it seemed like he could come out of it alright) he ended up having seizures and we euthanized him the day after surgery, this past October. Risk assessment hurts. A lot. But I don’t feel like I made the wrong call in either of these situations despite how terrible the entire situation was to deal with, and the aftermath.

—> And this bit about risk assessment I think is what your friend’s new horse comes down to. PPEs are all about risk assessment. The clinic vet (mentioned above) almost never gives a horse a perfect grade out of a PPE - because horses are horses and much like people, are always going to have something going on or something that leads to a “well in a weird way if x y and z all happen, COULD lead to 123 problem.” But she tells you the possible risks, the likelihood of those risks, and then buyers can make educated decisions based off of that information.

I think that comes down to the real point with this new partnership. She has the horse, that’s a done deal - so now what, going forward, can all people involved do to set it up for the most success? Probably getting a thorough once over from a vet to help diagnose assorted issues (both existing - Hunter’s bump - and potential). Find out what (if anything) is wrong/hurting. Assess the risks, assess the goals, and if the goals don’t match up with the risks, identify if there’s a way to satisfactorily readjust goals in a way that the rider is happy with. If there is, great! Then new goal, and make a plan based on what they know about the horse, on how to get there. Win/win!

On a side note: You keep talking about your friend’s 4* ambitions and how if this horse is sound but maybe not sound enough for that, she’ll just have to re-adjust. I haven’t really seen an indication that this is a thought process she’s had, merely one that you’ve concluded from observing the situation. And I would like to suggest that this isn’t necessarily your call to make. (Likewise, the teen girl with a 1.50m show jumper.) People’s talents, goals, and ambitions will take them in all different directions. That’s not a bad thing! But that is entirely between themselves, the people financing their work (parents, if they pay for lessons/horses), sponsors if it’s a horse they have the ride on, and professionals that coach them and the professionals that help maintain their horse). Not well intentioned friends. Now, if you approached it with “Only diagnostics can indicate the depth of the problem, but the hunters bump might inhibit his level of performance, and he may never be capable of doing what you want to do” then forgive me for my presumptions. Because I think that would be helpful, insightful feedback but I don’t really see that you indicate something to that vein was said.

Ultimately, “would it be so bad, if the horse had redeeming qualities, to keep it and lower your showing level” - what it comes down to is, this is your belief. That’s not a bad one to have! We all have the good fortune that we can decide what approach we want to take. But at the end of the day, it’s not fair to try to color everyone with the same marker, or fit everyone into the same box. Because other people’s approaches to horses, equestrian goals, etc, are very likely never going to be a perfect match for yours. (Which again: I think this is good! We have such a diversity in our sport, in where we come from, the mental approach, that you will never run out of interesting people to talk to, learn from, or read about.)

And on my last note here, I think. Just because someone comes at it from a different position than you doesn’t make them less caring/more unfeeling/more cruel. You haven’t said that about anyone but I feel like it’s still a worthwhile statement to put out there given the basis of some of these thoughts (about “worth” and “value” and what to do with horses that not everyone wants). I want to find a horse with PSG potential. I also rehabilitated (successfully) a horse that if he had survived his post-op colic situation, would have MAYBE been suited for training level dressage for the rest of his life. I would have been happy with that, because I loved him dearly, and he was worth it. I lost him despite giving him all the chances I could, and despite all the people doing everything they could for him. That does not mean I will go out and buy a horse with a major injury and rehabilitate that one. That doesn’t make me (or anyone else who makes this decision) heartless. It just means that we can love many horses in our lifetimes, and I can adore my next (hopefully talented) partner as much - but maybe in a different way - as my first.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler@IPEsq @Edre - threads take on a life of their own on this site… and I completely agree this was a vanity buy… the more I talk to you guys and the more I sit here and think, rethinking my prior notions and arguments the more I realize this is not going to be my friend’s advanced horse… Now, it is still hard to hear that this poor gelding may be sold off. He is a NICE horse… I may just buy him from them if they don’t keep him because I don’t have any high-level dreams. LOL!!! :D.

This family is strange. They can afford two horses for their 13 year old daughter, a horse trailer, event shows and a yearly thousand dollar park membership, yet they live in what is almost a mobile home with very tall grass in the front in a really nice neighborhood… it’s a little confusing to me?

I guess the second topic this thread has morphed into is what injuries create permanent unsoundness and what injuries can be rehabbed into, at the very least, serviceably sound? Sounds to me like the HB is the least of this family’s worries in regards to their new horse.

@Scribbler - thank you xD I have a good report that a lot of my “issues” with my horse have actually been resolved with farrier tweaks and training tweaks. I take myself way too seriously. I think I should stop posting in the midst of an anxiety attack before I contact my trainer to clarify whether or not I can go off the emotional deep end or wait it out… Our forward is back, thank goodness, and she’s been very consistent with her upwards transitions coming from the rear. I appreciate your concern for us, though!

@Edre, I really appreciate your support. If you know of any good vets in the SF bay area i’d love to hear… I do like my current one. I hated my old one, and the one I loved was too expensive… I think it’s about time I really searched for professionals I liked rather than settle with whoever is closest. It makes me jealous hearing about all these wonderful animal practitioners in other parts of the country when I seem to only find highly biased ones who particularly cater to upper-crust clients, of which I am far from.

This is one of those questions that you’ll run into as a horse person. Situations will come up when you’re faced with a tough decision, and you might seek advice from someone with more experience and go “what would you do”/“what should I do?” and, in my experience, they respond with “I can’t tell you what to do/what decision is right for you.” Risk assessment (and how you respond to the information you get after assessing) is intensely personal. What your resources (time, money, experience, location: these can all be a factor) are will ultimately determine what is the answer to “when is a risk too big of a risk?” What type of horse you have, what your goals are, what you long-term are willing to accept, will also help frame that answer. I had to face this twice this year. Early 2017 my horse ruptured his joint capsule in a freak accident. Recovery would require 6 months (MINIMUM) of stall rest/no turnout, just hand walking with no guarantee that he’d actually be ok after it. “Is this a risk worth taking?” I had to figure out how much money I was willing to spend (ultrasounds/vet visits to check progress), what my horse could tolerate (was he in pain? was the pain manageable? will his BRAIN survive 6 months of stall rest?), can I manage it safely for him, me, and everyone around us? Can I dedicate the time to this rehabilitation? Based on the information I had and assessed, it was worth a shot. We actually managed to bring him back successfully, although it’s unknown if he would ever have stayed sound under intense work. Unfortunately, in my other “risk assessment” scenario, we had a much less positive outcome and despite OK’ing surgical intervention for a colic (based on the information I had, it seemed like he could come out of it alright) he ended up having seizures and we euthanized him the day after surgery, this past October. Risk assessment hurts. A lot. But I don’t feel like I made the wrong call in either of these situations despite how terrible the entire situation was to deal with, and the aftermath.

@Edre, this is really important to me. I’m incredibly grateful and humbled you wrote this, because it has special meaning. I get immensely frustrated with my current vet because I email/call/whatever and say “My horse is ___, what do I do? How long does she have until she’s retired? What can she do with x y and z injury?” his answer is ALWAYS “I can’t tell you.” The vet I used before was more than happy to slam down her honest and negative opinion of the fate of my horse, but this new vet refuses to say one way or the other… Now that i’ve read this, I understand why. PERSONAL TANGENT - Do you have any advice on how I can approach my vet on exams we can do for my horse? He’s reluctant to “look under the hood,” because I think we are honestly both afraid of what we might find… but we also have to KNOW what we’re dealing with. I don’t want to ride her in a way that will injure her later. If I know for sure what’s wrong, what’s not working, what’s susceptible to pain, I can tailor her training program around it. I don’t think it’s a “do or be retired,” but it is a matter of “jumping or not” and “dressage or not,” because if these sports hurt her there is NO reason I’m going to do them with this particular horse. I am young. My sporthorse will come to me eventually, but this horse means the world and every universe in existence to me :sadsmile: Just her comfort and happiness is all I want in return for the thousands of upkeep dollars I put into her.

I’m putting some money away every month to get x-rays of her back and ultrasounds of her hind legs. It should run me about $800, but then we will have a soundness baseline of what we are dealing with and can recognize changes. I admit I am scared but I know it must be done…

I really appreciate that post. Thank you very much, I didn’t mean to sound upset or disgruntled. I’m sure I came off that way. I do have a large chip on my shoulder, because I had to do all of this horse ownership alone because nobody would offer any help or assistance… I had to learn how to wrap on my own, treat wounds on my own, diagnose a lot of things on my own. I didn’t have the luxury of a mentor, or even a vet I trusted. I’m a pretty self-created horse person. I guess I feel a bit bitter towards people who I consider lucky enough to have the full care team behind them. I have and did learn a lot going alone, but it was very, very hard… and I would never do it again.

I do feel like my friend with the DWB Is getting some very bad, very dangerous advice and training, but I am the first not to get my nose into other people’s business. This trainer has a cult following, meaning her students are completely indoctrinated and anyone who disagrees with her is a “bad person” and “a bad rider” and “has no idea what they are doing.” It’s very upsetting, but I must be the supportive friend and simply stand as a pillar and offer my experience with my own cracked china pony… I feel like, right now, speaking out will get me completely pushed out of any influential sphere I may still have. I can offer my medical experience, my rehab experience, my pre-diagnosis and eye for vet issues, but past that I’m not even going to get involved… I don’t want to be outed.

[Sugarwells]

Geeeez Louise.

[thecolorcoal]

@Sugarwells

Geeeez Louise.

:D:lol:

[Edre]

@thecolorcoal - Gonna try to avoid a wall of text this time. (Fat chance, but I’ll do my best!)

I’m in the midwest, but I actually might have some contacts in your area. I’ll go ahead and see if they have any ideas of vets that might be worth checking out. That said, what you posted lower in your post makes it sound like this vet might be worthwhile. Your judgement, of course, and I’ll see if I can get any names for you. Holiday madness, so it may take a few days but I’ll send you a message with what I find.

“I can’t tell you what you should do” (or any variant) is one of the most reassuring, and doubly infuriating answers I’ve ever come across. =/ When my horse was trailered up to the clinic (after hours call in on a saturday…) it was actually my barn owner hauling him. Came out to the barn in her PJs (so fast that she had forgotten her wallet, actually) and sat with me for nearly three hours through surgery. When the vet came out to advise me of their findings and ask how to proceed they stepped out and I just looked at my BO and went “what should I do?” And she couldn’t give me an answer. But she helped me figure out what questions I should ask, things to think about that I hadn’t even considered that I could ask the vet about (both the surgery procedure, recovery, graduated cost of everything…my mind was spinning.) And when I didn’t think I could actually keep it together to ask those questions, she was willing to ask them for me.

In terms of advice for approaching exams: I haven’t 100% followed everything that’s up with your mare so I don’t have the most comprehensive idea of what you’re dealing with. That said, I would go ahead and sit down and actually figure out everything you know (concrete knowledge. IE: “She has a flare” or - example - “She has an old bowed tendon”). Figure out what, among her known issues, are likely to be most severe. Depending on the horse, you might be looking at a laundry list of “problems” and horses are expensive! You can generally start from the “biggest” things (IE: High priority concerns) and then as you get, say, a bonus at work, money for xmas or your birthday, can save that and put that to another check up of another sort if you feel it’s necessary and helpful.

I can’t tell you what to do, there. That said, I think the back X-rays and ultrasounds of the back legs sounds like a good place to start. The soundness baseline, having an idea of what exists and what you’re working with is probably going to be very helpful. I would also suggest you see if you can’t consult with your vet on a “If you were going to pinpoint a problem area on this horse, what would it be?” And go from there with any diagnostic work. I don’t know if I’ve read it or not, but flex tests can be helpful (and are super easy and non-invasive) so also a good option to consider. (You can even reference my example with my BO above - she couldn’t make the decision for me, but I could ask her “what do you think I should consider?” “What problems would you be anticipating?” “How would you manage X situation?”)

Some people are lucky enough to fall into their security net of horse people naturally. Some people aren’t, and creating their team of professionals and acquaintances can take years of work and seeking them out. Don’t give up on it. It took years of talking to people and figuring out which philosophies resonated with mine, whose approach to horses, training, and riding fit well with me. You’ve got a lifetime of horses ahead of you, so as frustrating as it is that some people might have more support initially, don’t let it wear you down. Just keep grinding and reach out to people that you think have something to offer. (And in the beauty of the internet age, you can reach out to people via email or message so it doesn’t have to be people in your geographic area.) Dodge the bad apples, find the good ones, and take it a day at a time.