Talk to Me about Hunters Bump.

@Edre , thank you so so much from the bottom of my heart. That really means a lot to me that you’d take the time to discuss all my concerns. I don’t feel nearly as upset and hopeless as I have.

I will try to reel this back into the hunters bump discussion but I think we’ve pretty much squeezed what we can of it.

To recap: nice horse, hunter’s bump, MAYBE bowed fronts? Owner rides aggressively. Trainer trains aggressively. Limited vet interference, either because trainer discourages it or owners simply don’t know enough to involve? :confused: I thought DWB would be a good bargain buy, not sure I’m wrong but I wasn’t expecting what I saw unloaded off the trailer. Given the headache that is my rehab horse I would have turned this one down if I had serious 4* dreams. Super sweet, super cute little boy, really immature and only wants loves and hugs. Owner originally told me she wanted a 4* horse, but I think everyone’s sort of realizing that those are rare gems… If the hunter’s bump won’t effect his X-C ability then maybe there is hope! I sure hope so, because he is such a lovely guy. I suspect HB came from aggressive dressage training, just knowing what I know about trainer.

Topic of the thread is basically/has become more or less about buying horses with known problems and turning them into sport horses. Those who have an unflawed horse are extremely lucky. Do those pegasuses (pegasi?) even exist? :lol:

A Hunter’s bump that is noticeable with a blanket on is fairly severe IMO. There is probably some significant damage to that area. SI problems can really be difficult for the horse. I had a horse (Dutch Warmblood coincidently) that had a Hunter’s bump from before I purchased him. After some x-rays he had some very close vertebra that would probably turn into kissing spines inevitably. He also had SI issues. As the work got harder and more demanding he got more difficult.

I’d pass on a horse with a huge hunter’s bump personally. I don’t even know if you’re friend is or ever can be a 4* rider so having a 4* horse may be a moot point for that rider.

I am also fairly impressed that some of the issues you posted about with your horse on this board just a few weeks ago (if that) have already been resolved as mentioned in one of your posts on this thread. I wish I could resolve horse health and wellbeing issues like that so quickly!

On the topic of budgeting and selecting a vet…Yes, some have terrible bedside manners, such as the one who seemed to be more doom and gloom with your horse. Some are more optimistic and casual, and then others are more thorough and might make your head spin, but they should always end with a recommendation for a plan, and possibly 2 back up plans.

For complicated performance evaluations or specialty needs (such as dental specialists for tricky mouths), I always pick the third type, even though due to distance and availability, they are not the most convenient or most affordable. The second type I’d pick for routine care, shots, does this wound need antibiotics, and might be the best type to help me manage an ongoing pain issue—where there’s no more to do but perhaps the horse will do ok with whatever life it has on equioxx or something. The first type I have used as my primary vet for all issues. They are a bit aggressive, always up on the newest tech, and are probably the ones that strike you as money hungry. They are available and closer, and can take an X-ray or ultrasound or do a joint injection, but when the case becomes really hard and a bit out there, their bad bedside manner is only made worse by their frustration with the case. So, while they might be the best to aggressively go after a fresh bow or other acute problem, they struggle to work with you on the chronic ones that may not just need vet 2 with some moral support and simple medicinal support.

So, when you or your friend want to step back and ask, am I dealing with anything serious and potentially performance limiting, look for vets like type 3. These may or may not be the big hospital practices (they are in my area currently, but I’ve had great small practice vets of the same type elsewhere). But be aware that your baseline evaluation is going to be thorough and not the least expensive. You may call and say I have concerns about this leg or this foot or the pelvis, and they will come out and start with the same exam they start with on every horse. Not because you are wrong, but they want to look at everything and try to figure out what’s a primary problem, what’s secondary, what’s only cosmetic. They will feel every inch of the horse and watch the horse move in various settings. From there, they may recommend other imaging or not. This is how they try to pick out the significant problems of a subtle or chronic or complicated case. But it’s also good for the more straightforward problems when you have no existing baseline exam, because they leave no stone unturned. They don’t just look at the body part you are concerned about. You then have a plan going forward and can choose to address individual body parts with another vet, your farrier, your trainer, or whomever is appropriate. I’ve also found that something about this very methodical approach helps to keep vet type 3 more compassionate than type 1. Even if the news is grim. And they will take a history that includes, how long have you had this horse, what do you want to do with the horse, and (if there’s a problem), when did the problem start and how has it progressed? These are also the vets I choose for PPE exams. One, for thoroughness, but also two, because they will be the ones to stop the exam if they come across something that may be concerning for the intended purpose of the horse before you’ve spent $3k. They will ask if you want to proceed and may change the order in which they do things to investigate that potential problem more first before shooting rads of a completely different area.

So, when looking for a good baseline exam on a horse you already own, it can be good to seek out recommendations for vets good at performance horse PPEs.

OP I think maybe the thing you need most is to develop a care team and mentors IRL.

The other thing is to not take problems to heart that aren’t really your business. Especially when you are dealing with people who aren’t making wise choices in general. Doublewide child has parents with cash, she is not your problem to solve. Back off put up some barriers.

Then go shopping for the right trainer for you.

How do you get a trainer to take that next indefinable step and become a mentor? What would a trainer want to see in a student to do that?

They want to see someone who is teachable, open, doesn’t have a chip on their shoulder, is realistic and positive, helps themselves andctries hard, and doesn’t blow up their phone with tons of anxious texts.

They will back off someone who looks like a lot of emotional work, is scattered and inconsistent, or disrespectful.

I had no idea how to get a mentor at 21. I missed lots of opportunities at college and work internships. When I went back to grad school in my 30s I had the social and life skills to do that, and when I returned to riding in my 40s I knew I needed to be in a supported environment not alone in a pasture.

I tried a few different situations then started leasing from a small time trainer who was the best all around horseman I ever met and we became friends. And I am in a barn where I have developed friendship and help from among the folks whose horse care I respect. It takes time but it takes the same skills as fitting into a job or life.

3 Likes

Hey OP, all kidding aside, I think you’ve made your way, through this thread, to the kinds of things people on this forum actually can help you with.

I gather that you are in the part of the Bay that I am least familiar with, vet-wise. But I agree that solid but financially conservative vet care can be hard to come by in the Bay because of the dynamic you’ve touched on. There are a few conservative, old-school vets who usually operate one-man shows off their trucks and as a result have fairly conscribed service areas and limited diagnostic capabilities, a few practices that cater to desperate horsewives who approach problems with money instead of a problem-solving mind, some big clinics that offer cutting edge diagnostics/treatment but as a result tend to push those things first … and enough traffic between all of these options that it’s easy to settle for whoever’s closest. FWIW, what worked for me when I was a poor grad student with a broken horse in the Bay was to cobble together a team of docs whose philosophies and abilities fit individual needs. For lameness/sports med I needed someone with access to powerful diagnostic imaging equipment, a keen eye, and experience with up-to-date knowledge. For general injuries/emergencies I needed someone who respected my budget and general medical conservatism. And for routine vaccinations/dental/etc. I needed (financially) to be able to share farm calls with others at my facility. I started by finding the conservative general vet, and then getting his blessing to go elsewhere for diagnostics he couldn’t perform. In fact, I’ve stuck with the ‘team of vets’ model ever since – I like to joke that it takes a village for a horse like mine. Maybe yours as well? Sounds like you might be in a position to use your current vet as the core of your care team and look for a specialist to augment what you can do about the back issue… If you have trouble finding someone who can get you the diagnostic info you need without pressuring you to do all the things, I might be able to get a recommendation from the (brilliant, budget-respecting) sporthorse vet I used in another part of the Bay. This is also exactly the kind of question that the CoTH hive mind is good for – the recommendations I’ve gotten from members of this forum re: trainers and vets and barns in various parts of the country have shaped my horse life in not-inconsequential ways, always for the better.

As for how to approach the vet, I can understand the instinct to ask point blank for a prognosis. God knows that when my horse went in to the big hospital this summer blowing through sedation due to a right dorsal displacement and I had about 5 minutes to decide whether she was a surgical candidate I wanted to demand survival odds with a breakdown by age and an estimate of the impact of a serious ulcer history. But the kinds of numbers that get published in large(ish)-n studies in journals just don’t have the predictive power to be very good indicators for any individual case. Most vets won’t give odds unless they are approaching zero or 100%. Especially by phone or email. And especially if they don’t really have a diagnosis. Anyway, I’ve found that the best way to work on focused problems with vets is to write down the reasons I’m concerned about a certain problem, then set up an appointment specifically to investigate that problem, and tell the vet “I’m really concerned that X is causing my horse pain, because I’ve noted Y symptoms. I’d eventually like to follow up on any other potential sources of Y that you might identify, but my immediate priority is to the bottom of X so I can rule it in or out as a contributor to Y.” Most vets, being scientists, are very understanding of wanting to rule things in/out one at a time. Incidentally, troubleshooting in a sequential way helps with budgeting. Given what’s going on with yours I bet most vets would be responsive to just “I’d really like to get a baseline understanding of what is going on with X so that I can do my best to protect it and have a point of comparison for making sure it doesn’t progress as I ask my horse to do more difficult work”. While vets have a responsibility to protect the horse from unnecessary procedures, most are willing to do non-invasive diagnostics at an owner’s request just for the sake of peace of mind. If your vet can’t do the diagnostics you want, maybe he would be willing to recommend someone who can?

People here really want to help. Even those of us who have zero patience for posts that seem to be self-pitying or resistant to sound advice. If you can figure out how to tap into what this community does well (creative problem solving, sharing experiences, providing recommendations) you won’t have to fly solo on so many equestrian problem-solving missions and you might even get directed to IRL resources that can shore up your local support network. Happy Thanksgiving and good luck.

3 Likes

You are a gift to COTH. You are wise and well spoken and have the patience of Buddah. You deserve some sort of medal or badge for sticking through this.

OP, my other post was directed at you, you are exhausting. I hope you can stop and just listen.

1 Like

OP I think maybe the thing you need most is to develop a care team and mentors IRL.

The other thing is to not take problems to heart that aren’t really your business. Especially when you are dealing with people who aren’t making wise choices in general. Doublewide child has parents with cash, she is not your problem to solve. Back off put up some barriers.

Then go shopping for the right trainer for you.

How do you get a trainer to take that next indefinable step and become a mentor? What would a trainer want to see in a student to do that?

They want to see someone who is teachable, open, doesn’t have a chip on their shoulder, is realistic and positive, helps themselves andctries hard, and doesn’t blow up their phone with tons of anxious texts.

They will back off someone who looks like a lot of emotional work, is scattered and inconsistent, or disrespectful.

I had no idea how to get a mentor at 21. I missed lots of opportunities at college and work internships. When I went back to grad school in my 30s I had the social and life skills to do that, and when I returned to riding in my 40s I knew I needed to be in a supported environment not alone in a pasture.

I tried a few different situations then started leasing from a small time trainer who was the best all around horseman I ever met and we became friends. And I am in a barn where I have developed friendship and help from among the folks whose horse care I respect. It takes time but it takes the same skills as fitting into a job or life.

1 Like

Yes getting a support team IRL or online requires the same lifevskills.

An ability to listen. An ability to assess character in others so you aren’t taken for a ride by a fraud. An ability to self educate on all aspects of horse care through books, online material and clinics. But most important to drop anxious over responding and defensive reactions because this drive people away and leave you solo.

Also don’t borrow trouble. Learn from watching others mistakes but don’t feel you need to solve them. Not your circus not your monkeys. Take care of your own horse to the best of your ability.

2 Likes

You are also included in my statement. Wise and thoughtful posts I greatly appreciate just as a reader.
Bless you and those that have tried to offer advice. Some people never listen because they are too busy talking, or typing.

1 Like

You are right on with every post I’ve read on this thread.Don’t understand why op is so worried about someone else’s horse. Worry about your own horse.Pretty much NOT YOUR HORSE NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Op go back re read this thread tons of good advice. Take heed to it… scribbler has good advice listen.

Thank you @x-halt-salute, your advice and experience is very much in line with what I need. I do have an out-of-his-truck practitioner after leaving the large, money-driven and diagnostic-pushing initial first vet. Unfortunately for me they work together… Which is why I am reluctant to get down to brass tacks on diagnostics. I know how this other be tolerated and my disdain for them runs very deep, and id rather not have to get her involved…

as for everyone else who so helpfully responded… I believe it’s important to witness, see, and otherwise experience the issues of other horses so that if your horse comes down with that ailment you know a) what it looks like. B) how debilitating it is and c) how to treat it. I helped take care of a horse with an injured suspensory. That experience helped me understand what a suspensory injury looks like and presents as. Now, I feel confident self-diagnosing and treating for a potential suspensory if my horse comes down with it. Same with the hunters bump. I am following this girl’s progress because I want to know how this injury presents itself and what the likelihood of success is.

i appreciate those who answered my questions and concerns, and to those who continue to be annoyed or exhausted by my posts… If you could offer as much help, compassion and insight as @x-halt-salute I don’t think I’d be nearly as stressed or anxious about my horse… :frowning:

That sounds frustrating. Is there another vet at the diagnostic-pushing clinic that you might be able to get a fresh start with? Maybe just seeing a different clinician at the same practice would give you a chance to establish a new working relationship with some firm boundaries and a really clear purpose for the interaction…

Sometimes I think communicating with vets can be like communicating with auto mechanics – if you demonstrate that you want to fully comprehend a problem before you will move forward with treatment/repair and you refuse to get side-tracked by other recommended actions that are not relevant to your primary complaint, you can usually maintain control of the situation. If you get lost in the jargon or overwhelmed by the fact that they see all sorts of problems you’d never otherwise have known about, it’s easy to feel manipulated. It’s a bit of a tight-rope walk between respect for the expertise they hold and advocating for yourself and your horse. I’ve had the dubious honor of interacting with oh so many vets over the years (I think we’re up to 7 vets just this year, between some very tricky back stuff and a major colic). I’m sure some of them silently curse me once the bill is paid for being a singleminded, interrogation-machine PITA. But generally being focused, committed to knowing what’s best for my horse and acting on it, and respectful of their knowledge has been a good strategy for me (inasmuch as I still have a live, sound horse and have made a few vet friends thanks to that same veterinary wonder). Oh and doing my best to save my emotions for other outlets. Vets’ jobs are hard enough (did you know veterinary medicine has one of the highest suicide rates of any profession?) without me unleashing my anxieties on them!

Anyway, I think this community can help you with your next steps for your own horse, even if we can’t do much to predict what the hunters bump horse will be able to do. Maybe someone on this forum can help you find another vet for diagnostics, but even if you end up at the same clinic folks here can probably offer some support in getting what you need (and not too much more). Please be patient with people here. I think almost everyone means well, even if we don’t always serve up our opinions with a cherry on top. Tough love is such a cliched phrase, but even the posts here that aren’t resoundingly positive are only trying to help you re-examine the image you’re projecting so that you can more effectively recruit help and support.

1 Like

@x-halt-salute thank you so much <3 It is incredibly frustrating. I will talk to main vet and set a firm request that I do not want the head of that practice in the presence of my horse, and would request an associate vet instead to bring the ultrasound and x-rays. I am hoping he can make this happen. If not, I probably will ask my trainer to be there and monitor the situation so that I don’t get manipulated or tricked… I don’t trust her at all, and it’s been hard for me to even be with this vet because of his relationship with the original vet. But for monetary and clientelle reasons they don’t share a practice, but piggy-back off of each other as backup. She has access to the big tools and he has the low prices, but to use the big tools she HAS to be involved…

I definitely agree I may not be representing my horse in the best light… but I also don’t want to be delusional. I was in such deep denial that anything at all could be wrong when I bought her and over time I have realized that I could be doing more harm by ignoring the issues rather than identifying them and finding ways to manage them. I didn’t want to know I got scammed, and I have made the very best out of what I have. I have to put my showing dreams on the shelf for the time being, but that’s ok. I understand how it might not be for everyone, and that’s completely reasonable…

I suppose I still feel like my mare and I have something to prove :(. I think we’ve made a statement. If I had extra money I would probably go down this journey again, head to an auction and see what I saw, but I’'m also equipped with much more knowledge than I had a year ago, more of an understanding of lameness and soundness, a better eye for conformation, and a general idea of how long certain injuries take to rehab, and which ones never will.

I’d say it’s been a good experience in general! And I very much appreciate everyone’s input on this forum, but it seems I probably will never convince anyone my lovely mare is sound and pain-free :no:. I think at a certain point I just have to accept that not everyone is a believer.

OP why would your first idea if you had some cash be to go to an auction?

Why wouldn’t the ideal choice be to get a well started horse from a reputable breeder or trainer?

If you are talking about general auctions then pretty much everything that ends up there was unsalable in the open market. If you are talking sport horse breeders auction or ractrack yearling auction you’d still be better off buying privately.

I can’t get my head around this. You are admitting, admirably and honestly that you arent able to be clear headed about basic physical fitness, and don’t have any trainers or vets you trust, and can’t really communicate with vets yet. In other words you have a lot of learning to do.

But in your next breath you say if you had some cash you’d go off to the auction for a look-see.

Can’t you see that is just starting the same cycle all over again? Haven’t you learned anything at all out of the past year?

Nothing in any of your posts so far suggests that you have the experience and eye to pick out the rare sound sane well conformed horse that runs through the auction, or the experience to realize that such a horse is only going to be at auction if he is unbroke or dead mean and scary.

At this point your takeway should be the first step of wisdom which is to recognize the depth of what you don’t know. That is the only position from which true learning is possible.

You need to find a trainer you can trust to be your guide in horses. This may be a small time trainer who isn’t going to blow a lot of smoke about making you a star.

1 Like

@Scribbler, while I appreciate your concern I do think that some people send horses, good horses, to auction who they can’t pay for. You can find diamonds in the rough. Auctions are not places where only the unwanted, lame, and sick go. You could find a 5 year old, thin, unfit Oldenburg for 500. You never know. Just like sometimes you can go to a garage sale and find something worth thousands for only $5 because the people didn’t know what they had.

you can say this is unrealistic, but there’s enough stories out there to prove it happens.

anyway, I have a great trainer right now who is working wonders with my horse. She’s never felt, moved, or acted better and happier.

scribber, there’s nothing I can do to convince you my horse isn’t just a broken, unwanted off the track thoroughbred. When I come back with tales of glory I hope you will be willing to see the photos :))

1 Like

I oppose slaughter. I agree with euthanizing unwanted horses. If you’ve ever been in a slaughterhouse, you’d know the difference.

I would never buy a horse with hunter’s bump. Never have, never will.

Warmbloods are expensive. You might get a good deal on a good horse, but not usually on a good warmblood.
I bought a non WB who was a better horse than one of my expensive warmbloods, because she was old and headed for slaughter. She was terrific. Skinny at first, but no conformation faults.

I obviously agree with x halt salute.
You have to pay for a good warmblood. They are hard to find and cost a lot. Too many crossbreds are sold as “warmbloods.”

Being I did a lot of auction horse buying. I got a lot of so called diamonds in the rough. I’d say out of 10 horse’s there would be 3 that were good. The rest were killer horses someone’s throw away. …never gonna be sound junk horse’s. And their fate was Mexico because I wasn’t wasting my money or time on them.

OP, the number of issues you outline that your horse has would give most people pause. You’ve only had her for a year, you have no idea how she will hold up. You have no idea if any of the multiple injuries/issues she has might crop up in the future.

People are trying (really hard) to explain that if given the choice, buying a sound, sane horse is always going to be a better bet than getting a thin, maybe lame, maybe sound, maybe sane one.

It’s hard to understand what exactly you want from your horse. In one breath you talk about how many injuries she has and all the problems she has. In the next, you say you want to event, do dressage, hunters, or even breed her and that all her problems have been resolved in the last week or two.

And yes, horses end up at auction for a reason. That thin Oldenburg has maybe a 1 in a million chance of being sound and sane…more likely it ended up at auction because it was dangerous. Horses end up at auctions for lots of reasons, not all are physical. If a nice horse had owners who knew they had a sound, sane, registered horse, they would just sell it, even for cheap, privately.

2 Likes

I am pretty familiar with what ends up at auction and the local rescues. Indeed, my horse was bought at auction by my coach . . . as an unhandled 2 year old that was too much for the owners. She is a stock horse and a nice enough example of her type, but she also almost killed my coach in a pasture accident in the first year.

The quarterhorse industry overproduces on purpose, and in some regions you can indeed buy at auction or via “rescues” nice enough sound, unbroke young 2 and 3 year olds that have been culled.

The Warmblood industry does not work like this and there is a price premium, current fashion, and question of limited supply. This means that a nice or even niceish WB will sell for far more than the equivalent QH, Paint, Appaloosa, or indeed Arab, TB, or STB. Indeed a goofy clunky doofus of a backyard bred WB will sell for more than a truly lovely and completely sound TB.

Anyone who had a young sound sane registered Oldenburg, even unfit and greenbroke, could list it on CL or FB tomorrow for between $5000 and $10,000 and get a buyer within a week, because all the young trainers know they can put a couple months training on that horse, fatten him up, and sell him for $40,000 to one of their clients.

The owners would not be sending it to a kill auction for meat price of $500 because you could get so much more by a private sale.

Auctions are indeed the sale of last resort for almost all sellers, because the meat price is so low, and indeed just appearing at the auction lowers the horse’s value. I can’t imagine folks bidding a horse up to $5000 at that kind of auction because they would be in doubt as to its health and rideability.

The thing about auctions is that there is no PPE, often no chance to ride, no guarantees, no trial period, and often the registration papers “get lost in transit.” In other words, all the problems that you report with your horse and your young friend’s horse, multiplied.

And OP I have not been the person to announce that your horse is “unsound” whatever that means by now in this thread. You have posted multiple posts worrying about her roached back, her funky front foot, your problems going forward at the canter, and about your young friend’s horse that you describe as broken down. You have said that your horse is not fit to jump anymore, or not jump above a certain height, or something like that; forgive me if I’ve lost nuances or retractions or denials in these lengthy replies. You are having the vet out yet again to look at her and get to the bottom of her problems. You are the one saying there is something NQR about the horse and that you have had to change your riding goals to accomodate your horse’s limitations. You are the one saying that you bought a horse that couldn’t do the work you hoped to accomplish with it. I am simply responding to what you are saying.

We aren’t looking at a happy rider/horse combos sailing over 3 foot fences and saying there’s a hidden problem.

Anyhow, as I’ve said before, I hang out at the low end of nice horse, and I have yet to hear of anyone picking up a quality WB at auction. If they were getting them, I’d know: I"m in exactly the part of the horse market that knows a good horse, but needs a good bargain! :slight_smile:

Also a lot of the stories about “great auction finds” like Snowman come from a place and a time when auction was a way of trading off perfectly functional horses. Before classified ads and certainly before the internet, the auction was the only real way to get buyers and sellers together. Lots of useful horses used to go to auction and to get bought up by people who wanted to use them.

These days FB and CL and other online venues do the job of matching the sellers and the buyers of almost all horse that have resale value, and indeed a number that don’t. These sites act like auctions to set a market price if the sellers lower their prices over time if the horses don’t sell, or indeed if two buyers want the same horse and there is a bidding war.

The actual general auctions are therefore the place that horses no one wants to buy end up, or horses being culled.

There are sadly an awful lot of horses that are on the spectrum of NQR to badly lame, or not broke, or have behavior problems, and those are the ones that go to auction.

2 Likes

You encouraged them to buy this horse and you had not seen it?

1 Like