TB kills the jump?

[stoicfish]

I should also point out that it’s been said that not a single WB line traces back to a non-Blood stallion. If you have ever gone back in pedigrees to the beginning of the tail male, you’ll find that except (possibly) for Farn that statement would seem to be true. The East Prussians were particularly fond of the offspring of the TB mare Pocahontas from the early 1800s and used something like six of her offspring in their breeding.

And that is the point. The Traks were very closely tied to Tb’s at the early stages. All the famous stallions go back to mainly Tb, Arab or British bred lines. They did have regional influence but the vast majority of horses and the horses that most Traks are line bred to are Tbs. My Trak, Hanoverian both have the same TB influence though TB, Holsteiner and the Trak ancestors. Having done pedigree work, I realized that the Wb’s are not a random group of German horses but instead where a tight knit group of hand picked horses that formed a registry. Not unlike how most breeds including the Tb, are formed.
This is a hugely influential sire and the pedigree usually ends with a Tb, Arab or a British horse of unknown pedigree like this one http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=158946.

Another stallion used http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=218459, very modern looking for 1880.

I think people need to put horse in context of the time they lived. Most people farmed and a horse needed to earn a living. If they were not carrying soldiers, they needed to be working. The area I grew up in used horses two generations ago (from me) for everything. They rode them and worked with them. Often it was the same horses unless you were very well to do. The fact that people used the horses for farm work doesn’t detract from their other abilities.

[Bayhawk]

Stoic…I told you GAP was looking for drama. You’re feeding her…

[grayarabpony]

No, I’m contradicting blatantly incorrect information. If anyone is being dramatic it’s stoicfish.

If you don’t have anything useful to add, why don’t you go away.

[vineyridge]

I think catsdorule has pointed out the real question. In the very beginning, the TB was bred from riding and racing horses, even in the colonial US which developed its own version. The “native mares” that were bred to the Arab stallions were already riding and racing horses from the time of Henry VII and before. Charles II started the Queen’s Plate races for the improvement of light cavalry horses, but many of the mares in the beginning of the TB are Royal mares. We do know that hobbies and Galloways were riding and racing horses in late medieval times.

The mares from whom the WB developed, both in Germany and Holland and probably Ireland, with the likely exception of the Traks, were bred with pulling as their main characteristic. What we do know from history is that Baroque horses do not jump.

So does the fact that TBs were racing over jumps in the eighteenth century mean that the modern WB jump comes from them or from the pulling mares to which they were bred for improvement? Until science figures out the jump gene complex, we won’t ever be able to answer the question.

[grayarabpony]

It’s likely a combination of traits from both horses. However, TBs have proven time and time again that they can be top level jumpers on their own, and have those traits within their own gene pool.

[stoicfish]

The mares from whom the WB developed, both in Germany and Holland and probably Ireland, with the likely exception of the Traks, were bred with pulling as their main characteristic. What we do know from history is that Baroque horses do not jump.

And this is the point that needs clarification. This is going back to the early 1800’s so it is very hard to get an understanding of where these mares came from. I do know that the Prussian’s placed great value on their Calvary and that they had the foresight to set aside breeding stock for this purpose. I suggest that when the pedigree gets to “unknown” in the mid 1800’s that these mares were not “just” plough horses but were the horses that were some of the same stock used for wars and they needed a job. Wars were extremely frequent at that point and these horses were their army, but people need to eat also. I bet that the mares that were used were hand picked (they were really important that they had the best) and had characteristics that went beyond pulling as they were the mares from the last generation of horses used in war. It would make no sense not to have another use for the breeding stock of the army but that doesn’t mean that the farming use was the goal behind the breeding.
Racing was a sport and the horses used were a small subset of the larger population. But horses used for war had to be in great numbers and needed to be the majority of the population of horses as they would play the largest factor in the success of the war. Unlike the race horses, you can not have a large population of animal sitting around a small sized country side just eating, they need to help the country out with food supply also. They were big and strong, so why not use them for industry and farming. One shouldn’t ignore the major use and the huge importance of the horse for the nations survival in that area at that time. There is no discredit to a horse that has power and is one of the features of the Wb that still account for their success. But they were not simply plough horses.
If you look at the pedigree’s, right from the 1800"s, the Germans were using stock from England as the countries had very close ties. Much of the same stock were used in both places. That is over 200 years of influence.

People keep saying that they were only a creation since the early 1900’s and that is when they “changed goals” to meet the Olympic sports in particular.
But…the Olympic sports came from the traditional Calvary, which these horse have been bred for continuously for over 300 years. It always made sense to add in speed to the power without losing the larger form but the goal has been the same for a very long time.

http://discovereventing.com/?q=node/67

Bayhawk- And I know better too…

[grayarabpony]

Stoicfish, you know better about what? if you don’t want to be challenged, step 1 would be not to contradict someone with false information.

No one has said that Traks were just plough horses. Seriously, what is wrong with you? They served multiple purposes, as been said time and time again in this thread.

Why do you see pointing out the origins of WBs as a diss? Clearly you are. I don’t get it. That’s certainly not how I meant it. For example, WBs are still being used as top competitive carriage horses today, and a lot of those are also fabulous dressage horses.

Just so you know, the above are rhetorical questions. I’m tired of your snark.

[vineyridge]

When I say pulling, I mean that their main occupation in peace was pulling carriages, pulling wagons, pulling farm implements. Riding was secondary, since riding horses were pure luxury, in part because they could carry only one person at a time. I do not mean necessarily pulling plows.

Some of the very early German imports from GB that are found in the deep reaches of the WB pedigrees were Norfolk trotters and the ancestors of the Cleveland Bay.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7600855]
So you are saying that I can go and grab a OTTB and it will most likely be suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level? 1.3m or more?

Or only the ones that are successful at racing are going to be the excellent jumpers also so that is why the majority of NA bred Tb’s are not showing up at higher levels?

I really don’t understand how people can champion horses that are not bred for a sport but apparently the majority of Tb’s just luck into the right genetics.

Actually, this is insulting to those people who actually bred Tb’s for show jumping and sport. Families like Chapot, that went out of their way to choose horses with the talent. Or people like Fred on this forum, who was very dedicated in their breeding practices to produce quality horses. Fred is an exceptional horse that was able to pass on UL talent consistently, he is unique and so is his talent. He is one out off thousand and thousands of horses that are suitable.
Apparently, any most any OTTB will do for sport horse breeding and you do not need to be selective, you just need to afford the ones that run well? And breeding for traits is not important if you can breed for a Kentucky derby winner and it also happens that the horse should be under Eric, but Eric can’t ride well enough?

Don’t think of this in terms of Tb’s and Wb’s, think of it in terms of horses purpose bred for the sport. To argue otherwise is to dismiss selective breeding and it’s effectiveness. Which is scary on a breeders forum.[/QUOTE]

No one is saying “any” TB (or OTTB) is a potential high level showjumper. Just as no one seems to think that ANY warmblood is. Lets keep it “apples to apples.”

There are certainly sires and families that have consistently put not only jump" in a horse, but also the mix of temperament and trainability and the boldness to do it. Some of those horses just happen to be successful in the production of racehorses and the economics dictate that THAT is where they will stay. Thus, those looking for TB prospects are required to look for prospects that have either “flunked out” of racing (yet still have those qualities) or take on the challenge that someone like “Fred” did in proving and standing a TB.

I’d guess that the percentage of TB’s with “the above mentioned combination of qualities” is about the same as ever. Yes, many people bred TB’s for sport “back in the day” but most did so because they started with a “failed” racehorse. Yes, Gem Twist was bred to be a jumper, but Idle Dice and Touch of Class were not. I’d guess that if BNR’s in jumping were asked to select 10 young horses with the stipulation that 5 must be TB, that those TB’s would get to the top levels in about the same percentages as the non TB’s. In selecting TB’s they’d select athletes just as they do with WB’s.
These discussions often end up making it appear that ALL warmbloods wonderful, great physical specimens and all TB’s are X. (I hear “TB’s look like quarter horses” and I hear “TB’s are weedy” which is it?) Trust me, I know some disastrous warmbloods and some disastrous TB’s.

Medaglia d’Oro is one of the top US stallions. He’s young, but has a few horses doing well in post race careers, including this horse who was bred to race by Sheikh Mohammed. http://retiredracehorsetraining.org/2013-trainers/nuno-santos?start=5 He will be doing dressage, but there is no reason to think that he couldn’t be a good jumper. Would he be a GP horse? Who knows, but the same could be said for any random young WB too. If you are looking to breed an athlete, you could do worse that a stallion who looks like this. http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/132019/medaglia-doro but who has $100k and even if you did, they won’t breed him to a mare who isn’t going to produce a racehorse.
I’m sure he has a few sons out there from good female families for jumping but who wants to take the risk (as Fred did) of “making” a sport TB sire? I recently posted my support of the young TB stallion Friend or Foe, I got hammered for it.

[stoicfish]

No one is saying “any” TB (or OTTB) is a potential high level showjumper. Just as no one seems to think that ANY warmblood is. Lets keep it “apples to apples.”

Actually the person I was responding to in my post did suggested that it was common to find a OTTB that was suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level. So yes, someone did suggest what I replied to.
However, neither of us claimed or suggested that all OTTB were suited to the UL of show jumping. Nor did I reply to that idea. How about those apples…

[vineyridge]

How can one not love Medaglio D’Oro’s pedigree for sport? Even if his top is to Northern D, it’s to one of Northern Dancer’s top sons who is famous for passing on stamina as often as pure speed. How can a sport horse breeder ever justify paying $100k as a stud fee?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7604524]
How can one not love Medaglio D’Oro’s pedigree for sport? Even if his top is to Northern D, it’s to one of Northern Dancer’s top sons who is famous for passing on stamina as often as pure speed. How can a sport horse breeder ever justify paying $100k as a stud fee?[/QUOTE]

He may well be “one” of those Tb’s. Maybe. As you would have to evaluate the jump along with the rest of his admirable traits.

Something you can explain to me.

$100k is the stud fee for producing a registered Jockey Club Tb that has the capability of running and making money at a track. The value is in the offspring’s earning ability, that is enabled by the Jockey papers. Why wouldn’t these owners consider selling frozen semen to off breeds at a reduced rate? Since there would be no Jockey papers associated with those breeding’s.
The Tb industry has done the horses no favors by not allowing the sport horse world to be integrated with them. We can guess all day long if the horse you suggested would be the current version of Ladykiller, but unless they let their horses pedigree’s prove themselves, how do we know? It would greatly benefit the OTTB sales if people were familiar with the suitable pedigree’s for sport in the Tb world. And that takes offspring proven in the sport itself.

[Willesdon]

Can’t resist joining in… ready to dodge the flames.

The problem with horses in war is that really they are not much use before they are about 6 or 7 years or more. Time to grow up, time to put the training on them. Who wants to go into battle on a poorly trained animal that can not cope with the demands of working in a group, at speed, whilst remaining under control - and carry on doing the job for months at a time?

Which means either a) the state breeds horses that can pull a plough most of time and/or can then be recruited into the army when war breaks out at some unpredictable time OR b) the state imports horses at times of war.

The requirement for cavalry horses on a large scale only happened from the 17th century onwards, with the development of fairly efficient firearms. Before that, mounted warfare required sharp pointy sticks and a few highly trained people in armour. Mass armies and big cohorts of cavalry and state breeding of horses are a relatively modern phenomenon.

England went the route of importing horses for war (even though it was King George of England who founded the Hanoverian state stud at Celle). The TB evolved in England for aristocratic owners and was used for racing and hunting. The UK only began a ‘national stud’ in the 1920s and even that focused on TB breeding. Europe did not even start horse racing until the 19th century, copying Britain. France still has some 23 national studs founded in the 17th century, originally to breed horses for war (France being top European nation at the time and usually at war with everyone). Many states, e.g. Prussia, maintained a cohort of well-trained riders who could come back into the army at times of war and bring solid horses with them from their farms.

Until the TBs and other UK breeds such as Cleveland bay and Yorkshire Trotter, were put onto the European horses, the Spanish horse was the Rolls Royce of military horses. That only changed in the 18th century.

So the WB of ANY breed pulled carriages, ploughs, wagons and went to war. A good, all-round horse. It was only post WW2 that breeding for sport became the focus of most WB studbooks.

This is an interesting article that identifies TB influence on WB jumpers
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html

[Linny]

I agree about the JC. When most of the patrons of the USET were also folks who bred TB’s (who they raced, and showed and hunted etc.) there was a natural pipeline from one sport to another. Now many of those patrons are gone. TB’s are bred more commercially, far fewer race for their breeder and since there are plenty of lower level options, less fast racehorses still can make a decent living.

Look at a horse like Thane (above) who is bred top and bottom to be a sport horse. Fifty years ago, had he been bred by an old time sportsman there is a chance that if he was slow, he’d have been kept entire and possibly taught to jump while “improving” the quality of the hunters or even ponies the owner kept. If his foals were good looking and eventually showed some jump, his reputation would grow amongst the sporty set.

The same night that Sheik Mo bought Thane he bought this horse from my friend’s farm. http://www.pedigreequery.com/summerfree

Their breeding is similar, though Summerfree lacks much of the Secretariat blood that Servalina carries. Summmerfree was as good looking and was exported. I have no idea what became of him and cannot find a race record. If he were entire, he’d be worth trying to make as a stallion. He had a wonderful temperament, was a fancy mover and could probably jump. As “Fred” could probably tell you, making a sire is an uphill battle. Similarly, last week I saw a lovely mare listed on one of the CANTER sites. I’m sure that she will end up a broodmare but odds are that any registered foals that OTTB has, will be in WB books. Many of Fred’s foals are o/o WB’s and are thus known as WB crosses.
It seems that the odds of a “sport bred TB” resurgence are slim. "
The RRTP is trying to form a data base of pedigree but it is hard to monitor. The kid with a crooked TB in her yard can post the horse’s pedigree. We need analysis of the pedigrees of the elite horses in sport. CoTH did something like this in it’s Rolex coverage.
This BB has helped “out” certain sires. A few years ago several people here all came across offspring of Lido Palace who were sound, sane, scopey and trainable.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7604523]
Actually the person I was responding to in my post did suggested that it was common to find a OTTB that was suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level. So yes, someone did suggest what I replied to.
However, neither of us claimed or suggested that all OTTB were suited to the UL of show jumping. Nor did I reply to that idea. How about those apples… ;)[/QUOTE]

Here’s your part of your quote:

"So you are saying that I can go and grab a OTTB and it will most likely be suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level? 1.3m or more?

Or only the ones that are successful at racing are going to be the excellent jumpers also so that is why the majority of NA bredTb’s are not showing up at higher levels?"

That’s the beginning of your response to SE Powell, whose quote is as follows:

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7600716]Coming from a different world and knowing how many thoroughbreds can gallop down to a 6’ or 1.8288 meter fence and knowing how trainable these horses are I find the comment “thoroughbreds kill the jump” absurd. I asked one trainer/rider how you set a horse up for a jump like that and she looked at me and said if you have to set the horse up for the jump then he shouldn’t be in this race.

If a pro can’t take a horse with that much ability and make him a useful show jumper then it’s the pro’s fault, not the horse’s. We all know tbs are successful at the lower levels in the show ring; there is no reason those with exceptional jumping ability won’t be successful at the higher levels also. They have been, they are and they will be if the right people can get their hands on them.

Most people simply cannot afford the thoroughbreds that are also the most exquisite jumpers because they and their breeding come from the racing industry. You’re not going to get your hands on a talented AP Indy without spending a lot of money and it appears to me that sport horse breeders do not have those funds. Saying they kill the jump is a myth created by a cottage industry promoting their own product. It sounds like many of these breeders are very provincial and simply don’t have access to anything other than their own arenas, and in many cases horses. My guess is they haven’t seen thoroughbreds gallop down to 6 ft fences with ten other horses. They don’t know what they don’t know.

You can say all you want about warmbloods winning in the show ring, but don’t use the excuse that tb’s aren’t used in their breeding because they kill the jump, that simply isn’t true. More likely they aren’t used because the best are not available to breeders. Furthermore, thoroughbreds add more speed and agility than many riders can handle. Using that as an argument for not breeding to thoroughbreds is much more logical than saying they kill the jump.

I suspect the breeders who say this are just talking off the tops of their heads and are more driven by their own interests than anything else. I’d have much greater respect for their opinions if they said something like Thoroughbreds add too much speed and agility for today’s competitions.[/QUOTE]

How does your question relate to what SE Powell wrote? (Again, rhetorical question, because it doesn’t). She didn’t say just any OTTB can successfully compete at 1.3m. She’s seen a lot who could.

Clearly a horse doesn’t have to be a successful racer to be a top jumper. Many top US jumpers and eventers were not successful racehorses. They went on to jumping after failing to win very much at the race track.

[Linny]

"Most people simply cannot afford the thoroughbreds that are also the most exquisite jumpers because they and their breeding come from the racing industry. You’re not going to get your hands on a talented AP Indy without spending a lot of money and it appears to me that sport horse breeders do not have those funds."
I think this was from SEPowell, who I know is an advocate for OTTB’s.
She is correct that much of the top breeding is out of the price range of someone looking for sport. There are options though. First, look for top sport breeding in “less well bred” horses. For example, Rock Slide, by AP Indy from a great family has earned a great rep as a sport sire but he stands for $2500 and you can get his yearlings at places like Timonium. Similarly, Dance With Ravens at $3k. At this fee level, those foals are out of mares of lower RACING quality but who often carry fine pedigree for sport.
Most of the people who buy the very high end horses, $500k + are buying based on ego. They want the horse everyone is saying is the “best in the sale” because they can afford it. If it’s a colt, why not write them a nice note congratulating them on the purchase and mentioning that while you hope to see him winning the KY Derby in 2 years, if it doesn’t pan out, based on his breeding on conformation, you’d love to offer him a chance as a sporthorse some day. It can’t hurt. The worst they can do is say NO, thanks.

I am seeing more and more interest in bloodlines from people riding TB’s. Let’s face it, even the poorest bred TB on earth is probably only a couple of generations away from a “famous” horse. It may be silly, but people like being able to say that their horse has “Secretariat” or “Man O’ War” in their family tree. (Speaking of which, the Man O’ War’s were famous for their jump.)

I do understand that just as I love the TB, others prefer other breeds. A few years ago, I got into a TB/WB debate online with someone who felt that TB’s were all but useless for sport. She was only interested in WB’s I asked her to name a few of her favorite WBs. She named a nice hunter, Hanoverian I think. A bit of googling uncovered the fact that 3 of it’s 4 grandparents had raced.

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7604566]
He may well be “one” of those Tb’s. Maybe. As you would have to evaluate the jump along with the rest of his admirable traits.

Something you can explain to me.

$100k is the stud fee for producing a registered Jockey Club Tb that has the capability of running and making money at a track. The value is in the offspring’s earning ability, that is enabled by the Jockey papers. Why wouldn’t these owners consider selling frozen semen to off breeds at a reduced rate? Since there would be no Jockey papers associated with those breeding’s.
The Tb industry has done the horses no favors by not allowing the sport horse world to be integrated with them. We can guess all day long if the horse you suggested would be the current version of Ladykiller, but unless they let their horses pedigree’s prove themselves, how do we know? It would greatly benefit the OTTB sales if people were familiar with the suitable pedigree’s for sport in the Tb world. And that takes offspring proven in the sport itself.[/QUOTE]

I can’t see an owner of this caliber of sire sending him through a WB inspection, especially if it included free jumping. How many top WB mares do you think he would get without being approved, even at a heavily discounted rate for frozen? It definitely would be doing the horse no favors to cross him with less than very good mares. I see no reason why a race owner would risk an injury to get $1K a dose for frozen when he can get $100K for a foal.

Would you even pay 1K for a dose of unproven frozen from an unproven and unapproved TB?

FWIW, I know of local TB stallions who will cover or sell semen to non TB mares at a reduced rate, but they aren’t standing to a full book of TB mares.

I have seen several offspring by this stallion http://www.pedigreequery.com/takur , now deceased, out of WB mares and all of them show jumping talent.

[Linny]

Willesdon, England was quite noted for importing it’s kings from Germany, so why not horses?

[D_BaldStockings]

Some clarification:
Sinjon was a registered TB, not a QH.

Horses with registered TB parents not conceived by live cover are not eligible for registration in any TB studbook.

TB’s still hold the highest jump record in the world. And have proven to recently sire or produce jump winning offspringregistered in other books.

-Comparing Arab racing to TB racing, Arab speed is far behind TB speed, so no advantage to the TB would come from ‘improvement’ crossing of Arabs.

about young horse competitions and rankings…
WBFSH
"A studbook may become a “Member” if it fulfills all the requirements as laid down in the Statutes of the WBFSH. The annual fee for a member is a minimum of EUR1000, plus EUR1 per foal registered in excess of 1000 per annum. Stud books that do not fulfill all the above mentioned requirements can join as “Associates”, for an annual fee of EUR500.

“Associates” may not vote at the General Assembly or participate in the World Championships for Young Horses in showjumping, dressage, and eventing, which are run by the EEI in conjunction with the WBFSH."

No Parent Registry for Thoroughbred horses will become a member of WBFSH.
They run their own stand alone rules. They are not about to pay a per foal fee on the thousands of foals bred annually to qualiky them for inclusion.
Thus purebred non-approved TB horses will not be ranked, nor will purebred REGISTERED as TB competing Thoroughbreds appear in their rankings.

All TBs that wish to be ranked must be approved into member books and bred to member approved stallions.
-Rather limits the gene pool and erases the TB identification if you get the picture.

[tom]

Only sport horse studbooks – i.e., studbooks that register horses for the Olympic disciplines – may become members of the WBFSH.