Your idea of history is very short and inaccurate. There was the selective breeding of the war horse long before the Tb became a sport horse of luxury in England.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7603432]
Traks were not carriage horses, they were war horses and were very athletic from the start. They were developed (1732) not much after the Tb (Godolphin Arabian 1729) and used some of the same breeding that that made up Tb’s, aka Arabs. The Stud was created by the same man that held power over much of that region (Prussia) at the time.
Wb’s were not necessarily carriage/draft horses either. They were domestic to the area’s but they were also cavalry horses or riding horses. The Prussian Empire and the Teutonic Knights did not walk into battle. These horses were big, strong, and fast. http://www.ahrtp.com/MedievalWarfareOnLine/tnwarhorsescrossbows.htm
It is a mistake to think no one else was breeding for athleticism but the English.[/QUOTE]
My posts didn’t say those horses weren’t also used for riding. Here’s 2 quotes from my posts:
“The Holsteiner, like the other warmbloods, was a carriage and riding horse in the 18th and 19th centuries, and in the 19th century TBs were used to refine and add athletic ability.”
and
“In fact I think most warmbloods were carriage and farm horses as well as riding horses before the World Wars.”
Please read more carefully.
Also, Trak’s were also used for pulling:
“At the same time, East Prussian farmers were breeding the same base of horses, but for the daily work in the fields. Soil in East Prussia was always heavy and deep, and from today’s point of view it might seem strange that noble Trakehner horses were pulling ploughs through thick mud, but from the standpoint of breed selection, it is a major reason the Trakehner soon had the reputation of a hard-working animal with little need for maintenance.”
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7603454]
Your idea of history is very short and inaccurate. There was the selective breeding of the war horse long before the Tb became a sport horse of luxury in England.[/QUOTE]
No, my idea of history is not very short and inaccurate. That’s just a short statement that is in fact true. Warmbloods were used for carriage, farm and riding, just as I said. It’s also true that TB and other lighter horses were added in to make more athletic horses long before the World Wars.
Geez, want to misquote me and tell me I’m wrong when I’m not some more?
Warmbloods were used for carriage, farm and riding, just as I said.
So were Tb’s. But neither was bred for it. Wb’s were developed with a purpose and it was not farm work or carriage horse. And they were developed at the same time as the Tb’s. A Tb only had to carry a man in a race. A Wb had to carry a armored man into battle, that is why they were bigger and stronger, but no less athletic. The Traks used jumping as a criteria for stallions in the 1700’s as well as speed on the flat.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7603485]
So were Tb’s. But neither was bred for it. Wb’s were developed with a purpose and it was not farm work or carriage horse. And they were developed at the same time as the Tb’s. A Tb only had to carry a man in a race. A Wb had to carry a armored man into battle, that is why they were bigger and stronger, but no less athletic. The Traks used jumping as a criteria for stallions in the 1700’s as well as speed on the flat.[/QUOTE]
Um, yes, they were indeed bred to be carriage and farm horses. :lol: Re-writing warmblood history, are you?
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7603492]
Um, yes, they were indeed bred to be carriage and farm horses. :lol: Re-writing warmblood history, are you?[/QUOTE]
No they really were not. Since you are probably not quite that old, show me where you read this?
And you lose points for a “need edit” version of Wiki.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7603492]
Um, yes, they were indeed bred to be carriage and farm horses. :lol: Re-writing warmblood history, are you?[/QUOTE]
No they really were not. Since you are probably not quite that old, show me where you read this?
And you lose points for a “need edit” version of Wiki.
Try clicking on the Trak link that I provided, for starters.
Why don’t you provide reliable proof of your own? Of warmbloods not being bred for carriage and farm work. Even common use of TBs as carriage and farm horses. I’d be interested in that.
Unless you are very very old, you weren’t around then either. :rolleyes:
Here’s another link about Oldenburgs: http://www.horsemanmagazine.com/2008/08/oldenburg-horses/
http://www.trakehners-international.com/history/index.html
Traks were used for …not bred for as I said. They were bred as a war horse and selected for their athletic abilities.
In the early 18th century, King Friedrich Wilhelm I realized that a new type of cavalry mount was needed as war tactics had changed and demanded a faster, lighter horse that also posessed power and endurance. In 1732, he moved the best of his cavalry horses to the new royal stud farm Trakehnen and began to systematically breed a horse that would meet many criteria.
East Prussia therefore had two separate, but equally outstanding sources for riding horses. The military and civilian herds were mixed often, further consolidating the best possible traits.
They did use some of the local mares as they had positive traits also. NO where in the article does it say the Traks of the Stud were bred for farm work or carriage. They were always bred for an athletic war horse…as I said. Purpose bred for jumping right from the beginning. I bet Tb’s used some local horses that had relatives that ploughed field too. They had Arab sires over local mare too, but they bred for a race and not a war.
From the above link: At the same time, East Prussian farmers were breeding the same base of horses, but for the daily work in the fields. Soil in East Prussia was always heavy and deep, and from today’s point of view it might seem strange that noble Trakehner horses were pulling ploughs through thick mud, but from the standpoint of breed selection, it is a major reason the Trakehner soon had the reputation of a hard-working animal with little need for maintenance.
I guess you missed that?
OK, then read these quotes from The International Warmblood Horse:
"In Fritz Schilke’s Trakehner Horses, Then and Now we learn just how useful and cost effective a Warmblood mare was supposed to be:
The Eastern Prussian broodmare so-to-speak had to pass a daily performance on her breeder’s farm… With this objective in mind, new tests were developed. Eastern Prussia instituted a three part exam: A. performance test with a plough, team of two, single share plough, time required 4 hours…B. performance test in heavy harness, pulling a load, team of two, on hard road…C. Final test under a rider, free walk, free trot without minimum performance. Gallop 2km in a total maximum time of 5 minutes, 30 seconds."
And those are Trakehners.
Want me to quote some more?
A war horse isn’t purpose bred to be a jumper. They are bred to carry and pull heavy loads.
And “you bet” that some locals used TBs as plough horses? That’s all you’ve got?
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-3/
Interesting background on Holsteiner history
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7603600]
OK, then read these quotes from The International Warmblood Horse:
"In Fritz Schilke’s Trakehner Horses, Then and Now we learn just how useful and cost effective a Warmblood mare was supposed to be:
The Eastern Prussian broodmare so-to-speak had to pass a daily performance on her breeder’s farm… With this objective in mind, new tests were developed. Eastern Prussia instituted a three part exam: A. performance test with a plough, team of two, single share plough, time required 4 hours…B. performance test in heavy harness! pulling a load, team of two, on hard road…C. Final test under a rider…"
And those are Trakehners.
Want me to quote some more?[/QUOTE]
By all means. And your being obtuse. The Trak State stud was not there to breed plough horses, but war horses. And I already said they used local strong mares some times. That is not the issue and the point the point is THEY WERE SELECTED TO BE WAR HORSES’ THAT WERE STRONG’ FAST AND ATHLETIC. They were never bred just to be plough horses, they used strong mares to increase the strength aspect as the Arabs and Tb were not strong enough to carry men with armour as the Tbs were bred for a race horse. There is nothing to ashamed of or that denies the WBs strength or versatility. The mare base was not just plough horse and the Trak farm had their own mares that were selected for their purpose. They have had purpose since the 1700`s and not plough horses till WW1. Read the whole article and think about it.
I’m being obtuse. :lol: Oh that’s rich.
Where did I ever say they were just bred to be plough horses? Oh wait, I didn’t.
You are rude, and allergic to facts. You need to read up on warmblood history, since it’s obvious you don’t know it. Try reading ALL of it, not just the parts you like. Whenever warmbloods were fast and athletic, it was from infusions of TB blood.
I read the whole article about Traks. Clearly you did not.
To deny that Trak were bred for farm work when there was a PLOUGH test, or for carriage when there was a HARNESS TEST is just… ridiculous. Those tests were used between the World Wars.
The horses were bred for what they were used for. :rolleyes:
OK, I’m done here. This is too much crazy for me.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7603622]
I’m being obtuse. :lol: Oh that’s rich.
Where did I ever say they were just bred to be plough horses? Oh wait, I didn’t.
You are rude, and allergic to facts. You need to read up on warmblood history, since it’s obvious you don’t know it. Try reading ALL of it, not just the parts you like. Whenever warmbloods were fast and athletic, it was from infusions of TB blood.
I read the whole article about Traks. Clearly you did not.
To deny that Trak were bred for farm work when there was a PLOUGH test, or for carriage when there was a HARNESS TEST is just… ridiculous.
The horses were bred for what they were used for. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
At the end of the same paragraph.
They used strength as a criteria. They did not set up one of the most amazing Stud farms of it’s time, by the king, to breed plough horses. It was a test of strength. The East Prussian farmers are not the Trak Stud but they did use some of the local mares.
Your such a troll. And it is sad as this could be an educational conversation.
It could be an educational conversation – FOR YOU. You are the one trolling, spouting a bunch of stuff that’s not even true.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7603641]
At the end of the same paragraph.
They used strength as a criteria. They did not set up one of the most amazing Stud farms of it’s time, by the king, to breed plough horses. It was a test of strength. The East Prussian farmers are not the Trak Stud but they did use some of the local mares.
Your such a troll. And it is sad as this could be an educational conversation.[/QUOTE]
They were used as plough horses, and were bred for it. That’s the truth, like it or not.
It could be an educational conversation – FOR YOU. You are the one trolling, spouting a bunch of stuff that’s not even true.
Well, I remember reading an article about the modern Holsteiner which was in danger of disappearing after WWII because tractors were replacing the farm horse. Apparently some Powers decided that the classic Holsteiner should be preserved and went around to farms buying up mares. IIRC, there were somewhere from 250 to 500 mares who were saved that way. One story in the article said that one of the greatest stamms of Holstein descends from a mare (and her sister?) who were found living in a barn with the farm equipment.
I think Bayhawk may have originally posted the link to the article.
I should also point out that it’s been said that not a single WB line traces back to a non-Blood stallion. If you have ever gone back in pedigrees to the beginning of the tail male, you’ll find that except (possibly) for Farn that statement would seem to be true. The East Prussians were particularly fond of the offspring of the TB mare Pocahontas from the early 1800s and used something like six of her offspring in their breeding.
Irish farm horses have always doubled as foxhunters. The tradition was for the government to send Blood horses as stallions to stand in local areas to improve the local mares so they would produce horses more qualified to become cavalry horses. Remember that horses were not only for riding but also had to pull cannons and wagons. For some reason, I don’t think Europeans were big on mules for those purposes. The English were so desperate for cavalry horses that they imported thousands from the US in the latter days of the nineteenth century. The German system for obtaining cavalry mounts by breeding was copied in both the UK and the US at the turn of the 20th Century. I have saved somewhere a paper from about 1910 on why the US should establish a remount system and it goes into detail on European cavalry remount systems, including the Germans, Austro-Hungarian Empire, etc.
I also rather disagree with the premise that the Spanish royalty used Holsteiners in their stables, if the picture of Philip II is any indication. Since they owned Naples, and the Neapolitan horse was the progenitor of the baroque horse, it’s far more likely that he was riding a baroque Neapolitan in the painting. Baroque warhorses were exported from Italy all over Europe during that period, and the Spanish are said to have created their baroque breeds from them.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7603667]
[B]They were used as plough horses, and were bred for it. That’s the truth, like it or not.
[/B]It could be an educational conversation – FOR YOU. You are the one trolling, spouting a bunch of stuff that’s not even true.
Where did I ever say they were just bred to be plough horses? Oh wait, I didn’t.
Your BS is so thick that you continually contradict yourself.
Here are some abbreviated articles that have some history of the Holsteiner, one of them linked above, I believe. I think as a history lesson on how a breed develops and transforms it’s a good, short introduction:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-1/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-2/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-3/
Some quotes from those articles:
[I]And like everyone in the world, I guess you are looking for a Thoroughbred jumping stallion?
“German Thoroughbred breeding has changed with the Northern Dancer blood, more like Quarter horses – we need the big framed Thoroughbreds but they are difficult to find. We bought six from New Zealand fifteen years ago – they were very nice horses but none of them was a stallion. Nice horses for eventing and show jumping competition. We should look everywhere, Australia, Argentina, perhaps Russia. You have to be lucky to find the right full blood stallion. When you think you have found the right type of Thoroughbred stallion, you still don’t know if his offspring are going to work.”
Ahsbahs and Hell were organizers as well as horsemen, forming stud books to regulate breeding. The breeding goal of the association formed by Hell was set out in 1885: “A refined, powerful carriage horse with strong bone structure and high, ground covering strides, which at the same time should possess all the qualities of a heavy riding horse.”
Ahsbahs created the Holsteiner Stud book, and crowned his activities by helping found the Elmshorn Riding and Driving School in 1894 – this was the first such institution in the world.
According to Romedio Graf von Thun-Hohenstein in his book, The Holsteiner Horse: “Instead of simply giving up and allowing the breed to wither away as a victim of economic development, the dynamic Board of Directors decided to totally reshape the horse which had been entrusted to them. The work clothes and habits of the hard working rural labourer were to be traded in for the custom tailored suits and elegant manners of the international athlete. This all had to be accomplished without relinquishing indispensable physical and mental strength and natural talent of the robust country boy.”
And that transformation involved – as it had in the nineteenth century – a massive influx of Thoroughbred blood.
Cassini – keeping the best stallions for the Holstein breeders
Do you see the Thoroughbred and Arab blood continuing to have an influence in your breeding program?
“We use the Thoroughbreds and the Anglo-Arabs to firstly create new lines, and also to have the possibility to change the type a little. It’s my personal idea that we have to have a horse with all the scope, light enough and easy enough, and so we have to use a little bit more the Thoroughbreds without losing the rideability and the scope that we have. That is not so easy but we have to find the right way.”
[/I]As I read this history, the Holsteiner was developed from an agricultural horse- but not strictly a “plow horse.” We have a long history of the draft breeds and if these animals were true draft animals, we could be getting the jump from crosses with the draft breeds. Maybe one can but not with any consistency. The basis of the breed was an all around type of animal, that could plow and pull a carriage and act at a heavy riding horse. Of course, as needs changed, lighter blood was infused but very, very carefully. Yes, the Dark Ronald line seems to predominate in the pedigrees of TB’s used and there would be a reason for this- it worked. TB blood was also added via the sire line. That base is the Holsteiner mare and while she may be an F1 or F2 mare, the base mare line is very well known to the breeder and they know what it will produce. I would also posit that the jumping power and “sit” necessary in today’s jumpers comes from that heavy riding horse base. TB’s today are not bred to “sit” and jump, they are bred to run. You’ll note in the articles that they are having a harder time trying to find the right kind of TB and turning to Selle Francais and others breeds to infuse “blood.” Maybe it would be more correct to say, “The wrong kind of thoroughbred can kill the jump.”
Is this so different from the story of the Morgan horse? Justin Morgan who could pull plow, a carriage, and run races on Sunday? Maybe the heavy riding horses weren’t racing but they weren’t strictly plow horses, either, not draft animals. Is there something in the “sit” to pull a carriage that allows these animals to jump better?
I would not argue that there are not TB’s that can jump. But as has been mentioned elsewhere, breeding them is not consistent. I’m not talking about eventers. I think the difference between a galloper jumping and a stadium jumper is considerable. With the advent of shorter and shorter races, the ND and Mr.P lines will continue to predominate, and as much as jumper breeders may lament the lack of the right kind of TB’s to use in breeding, we lament the loss of TB lines that could truly stay further than a mile. Nowadays, a “classic” horse is considered one that can get a mile and a quarter, at least once in its life.
And as someone who bred (Once only) a Holsteiner out of an American approved TB mare, I can tell you the importance of knowing what the mother line will throw and the importance of consistency- because the F1 I got was a complete, small, surprise. Mare lines in American TB’s are noted for their black type get, not throwing a consistent, typey product. Because of the long history of Holsteiner mare lines, the breeder has more chance to get what they want. Look at the centuries involved and the knowledge. Until someone can breed generations of TB with consistency, type, and ability for sport, only an occasional individual is going to be competitive.
Yes, the US team has had some marvelous jumpers, but wasn’t Sinjon a Quarter Horse? And Nautical came from out west somewhere and a palomino to boot? Talent can be found anywhere. Breeding it and hitting the mark consistently is another matter.
Stoic fish:
Oh aren’t you sweet! Can’t you read? I never said they were just bred to be plough horses. They were also bred to be harness and riding horses. Just as is stated in all of my posts, and as indicated by the Trak tests that I quoted earlier.
Just admit it. You were wrong and you don’t know what you’re talking about. I doubt you’re big enough to do that though.
Catsdorule: you could argue that TB type isn’t consistent but since no one is systemically breeding them for jumping, what’s the point? The Holsteiner type has been changed drastically over such a few decades, so clearly it doesn’t take too long to solidify a type. There’s clearly been a LOT more top TB jumpers than QH jumpers. Nautical jumped at a time when horses mainly just needed to be able to jump high fences, not high and wide fences and technical combinations.
No one is going to use TBs for jumper breeding, because the only countries really successfully breeding jumpers are in Europe and they don’t often use TBs, or have as many as we do here. But as a rider and a fan, I wish more would. It’s a missed opportunity.
