[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601304]
Oh please…I can spot a TB from 5 miles away. Where does this idea come from ? There is NO TB that looks like a WB…I will repeat…there is NO TB that looks like a WB. Any good horseman/woman can tell you that.[/QUOTE]
:lol: I have known several TBs that have been very competitive at that level, but you are right, they are very easy to pick out. The eventers crossing over to jumper shows are pretty easy to pick out as well.
http://www.sprucemeadows.com/tournaments/orderAndGo.jsp?id=23&d=2013-06-08&ty=2013
You see lots of Tb’s at the 1.2m level but very few at the 1.45 level. Year in and year out you seem the same pattern. You see Tb’s at the lower levels but not much past 1.3m.
There is a lady here in Alberta who is a very talented rider that show’s Tb’s and does very well. I would love to hear her take on this conversation. http://www.sprucemeadows.com/tournaments/media/1346864120281_806.pdf #24 She is one of the few that I see at 1.4m or above on a Tb here.
[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7601313]
I removed the opinion parts and am quoting the rest because it is true and applies for all breeders of any type /discipline.
Yes TB’s do not have many champions that are purpose breeding them for sport outside of racing. Saying the talent and genes are not there is wrong but just like with WB’s or any other specialist breed to succeed is is going to take someone willing to dedicate many generations 30 plus to ONLY breeding them for sport. To put them back into the mainstream they were 20 / 30 years ago when breeders like the Chapots focused on them.[/QUOTE]
Right…this is where the warmblood breeders across the globe have made their bones. They got organized and have the systems in place from foal thru top sporthorse.
I see no reason the TB breeders here can’t do the same.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7601367]
http://www.sprucemeadows.com/tournaments/orderAndGo.jsp?id=23&d=2013-06-08&ty=2013
You see lots of Tb’s at the 1.2m level but very few at the 1.45 level. Year in and year out you seem the same pattern. You see Tb’s at the lower levels but not much past 1.3m.
There is a lady here in Alberta who is a very talented rider that show’s Tb’s and does very well. I would love to hear her take on this conversation. http://www.sprucemeadows.com/tournaments/media/1346864120281_806.pdf #24 She is one of the few that I see at 1.4m or above on a Tb here.[/QUOTE]
Same thing on the circuits in Florida and up thru Virginia to New England. TB’s pretty much non existent past 1.30 meter.
So if competitors and customers aren’t seeing them…they will never seek them out.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7600855]
So you are saying that I can go and grab a OTTB and it will most likely be suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level? 1.3m or more?
Or only the ones that are successful at racing are going to be the excellent jumpers also so that is why the majority of NA bred Tb’s are not showing up at higher levels?
I really don’t understand how people can champion horses that are not bred for a sport but apparently the majority of Tb’s just luck into the right genetics. 
Actually, this is insulting to those people who actually bred Tb’s for show jumping and sport. Families like Chapot, that went out of their way to choose horses with the talent. Or people like Fred on this forum, who was very dedicated in their breeding practices to produce quality horses. Fred is an exceptional horse that was able to pass on UL talent consistently, he is unique and so is his talent. He is one out off thousand and thousands of horses that are suitable.
Apparently, any most any OTTB will do for sport horse breeding and you do not need to be selective, you just need to afford the ones that run well? And breeding for traits is not important if you can breed for a Kentucky derby winner and it also happens that the horse should be under Eric, but Eric can’t ride well enough?
Once again, the question was asked in terms of breeding and not whether an individual horse can jump. And a few remarkable Tb’s (a subset of the overall population) have made invaluable contributions to horses bred for SJ and dressage. Arabs also made some important contributions along the way. But that is a different statement than the average or even above average TB will be suited to breeding for SJ. And many people are thinking in term of amateur activities but the question is speaking to the highest levels, not the pony club, in which case many Tb’s would be suitable as they are an all around athlete at that level. So are good Morgans.
Look at this in terms of genetics. You need to select for the desirable traits or they will not be transmitted with any type of consistency. The research has been done and jumping is highly hereditary. It is also easily deteriorated when non-jumping blood is introduced. If you are not selecting for it…it is not being passed on. If you are selecting other traits, they will be passed on. If you want to see what the strengths of a TB are, ask what the breeders of them are selecting.
30-40 years ago we had more NH bred Tb’s in NA and they definitely were selected to jump and run. Now the majority are bred for flat sprints and to mature early.
Don’t think of this in terms of Tb’s and Wb’s, think of it in terms of horses purpose bred for the sport. To argue otherwise is to dismiss selective breeding and it’s effectiveness. Which is scary on a breeders forum.[/QUOTE]
She said a lot of TBs are talented jumpers, not that you can pick any OTTB and it will be a strong show jumper. Although TBs are good jumpers in general, and more athletic in that way than most other breeds, generally speaking.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601304]
Oh please…I can spot a TB from 5 miles away. Where does this idea come from ? There is NO TB that looks like a WB…I will repeat…there is NO TB that looks like a WB. Any good horseman/woman can tell you that.[/QUOTE]
Do you enjoy parading your lack of knowledge about TBs? It appears that you do.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7601607]
Do you enjoy parading your lack of knowledge about TBs? It appears that you do.[/QUOTE]
GAP…you insist on making me say it again. When you actually breed a horse , compete a horse or actually know the first thing about sporthorses , then maybe someone will discuss something with you.
I thought you had be on ignore ?
Yes, you keep repeating those lies over and over… Why is it that you think I haven’t competed or bred a horse?
Actually I’m not interested in having a conversation with you. You’re not adding anything to this discussion and don’t add anything of value to most discussions other than a lot of unpleasantness.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7601663]
Yes, you keep repeating those lies over and over… Why is it that you think I haven’t competed or bred a horse?
Actually I’m not interested in having a conversation with you. You’re not adding anything to this discussion and don’t add anything of value to most discussions other than a lot of unpleasantness.[/QUOTE]
Words from your own mouth…you cleaned stalls at a breeding facility.
Please ignore me GAP…
I boarded at a barn where horses were bred, and sometimes cleaned stalls to work off some of the board. Most of my time spent at the barn was spent riding my horse and talking to people. You know, the usual stuff. And I learned quite a lot.
Besides, that would have nothing to do with whether or not I have competed or bred a horse, and I have in fact done both. I didn’t compete at a high level (training level eventing during grad school) and never claimed to. My homebred is in the paddock behind my house as I type.
You know, you actually owe me an apology. Not that I’d accept it. LOL
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7601687]
I boarded at a barn where horses were bred, and sometimes cleaned stalls to work off some of the board. Most of my time spent at the barn was spent riding my horse and talking to people. You know, the usual stuff. And I learned quite a lot.
Besides, that would have nothing to do with whether or not I have competed or bred a horse, and I have in fact done both. I didn’t compete at a high level (training level eventing during grad school) and never claimed to. My homebred is in the paddock behind my house as I type.
You know, you actually owe me an apology. Not that I’d accept it. LOL[/QUOTE]
GAP…you’re looking for drama but I’m not going to be the one to feed it to you. BYE…
Maybe we can look at the question from an another perspective:
TB’s where originating from Arab stallions bred to indigenous mares (compare to WB’s originating from TB’s bred to indigenous mares)
Today after closing the TB studbook for a very long time, who will advocate bringing back some Arab blood to improve speed ?
Considering the WB, the history is much shorter but in the future the question of bringing back TB blood to improve the jump will probably be considered the same as bringing Arab blood to improve TB speed.
I don’t have a crystal ball but only an opinion.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7601768]
Maybe we can look at the question from an another perspective:
TB’s where originating from Arab stallions bred to indigenous mares (compare to WB’s originating from TB’s bred to indigenous mares)
Today after closing the TB studbook for a very long time, who will advocate bringing back some Arab blood to improve speed ?
Considering the WB, the history is much shorter but in the future the question of bringing back TB blood to improve the jump will probably be considered the same as bringing Arab blood to improve TB speed.
I don’t have a crystal ball but only an opinion.[/QUOTE]
That scenario has been brought up many times here. Apples and oranges. Fans of TBs are talking about horses that are not lesser than in talent than warmbloods. After all, there were plenty of 1.6m TB jumpers in recent history. Currently there’s a rider in Southern Pines, NC that campaigns a TB at GP. Hillary Simpson on Arkansas.
I guess the science brains on this board will have the best chance of guessing at that answer–when is the hybrid problem of reverting back to an earlier parent no longer an issue? (Plus the nonscientific me wonders if you have something 50 percent TB through 4 generations, what type would it revert back to-- the WB or TB?!)
[QUOTE=omare;7601856]
I guess the science brains on this board will have the best chance of guessing at that answer–when is the hybrid problem of reverting back to an earlier parent no longer an issue? (Plus the nonscientific me wonders if you have something 50 percent TB through 4 generations, what type would it revert back to-- the WB or TB?!)[/QUOTE]
Change the way you think about it. There is no such thing as a WB or Tb, those are anthropomorphic delegations. A Tb is a genetically similar group of horses that are selected for certain traits. They were created in the 1700’ but they have changed much since then, and what they are is derived from how they are selected and that depends on the type of race they run. Many quarter horses are mostly Tb’s that were selected for the shorter race and an Arab was the original but selected for the long race.
Wb’s have been around and crossed to Tb’s since the 1800’s.
A Wb population will look like the horses that people choose. That is why stallion selection is so important. It shapes the genetics of the group. With people choosing “modern” types, I do not think they will revert to a heavy type at all. They can’t, as we are weeding those genes out. You can have a hidden throw back but you don’t have spontaneous reversion.
The key is what features/genes we select for. If we select for the traits that the Tb brought into the Wb mix since the 1800’s then it will still be there. You get “reversion” if the density of the desired genes are not high enough or not selected for in the case of people making the selection process. Think about how a pug came from a wolf like animal and that is how much shaping power the selection process has. Or how one stallion founded the whole Morgan breed. Breeds are the consolidation of traits that are already in a population. Mutations are rare.
But I believe the point is that when we take horses that are successful in SJ, they have those traits already that are required. Those are the horses that have been selected because they have the right traits and that is tested through sport.
Not to say that Tb population does not carry some of those traits (some came from the old Wb mares), it is just that there is not many Tb horses that have those traits consolidated.
Good point Andy.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7601768]
Maybe we can look at the question from an another perspective:
TB’s where originating from Arab stallions bred to indigenous mares (compare to WB’s originating from TB’s bred to indigenous mares)
Today after closing the TB studbook for a very long time, who will advocate bringing back some Arab blood to improve speed ?
Considering the WB, the history is much shorter but in the future the question of bringing back TB blood to improve the jump will probably be considered the same as bringing Arab blood to improve TB speed.
I don’t have a crystal ball but only an opinion.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone is adding TB blood to improve the jump. I thought the WB brought the jump and the TB added stamina and agility to improve the over-all performance.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7602572]
I don’t think anyone is adding TB blood to improve the jump. I thought the WB brought the jump and the TB added stamina and agility to improve the over-all performance.[/QUOTE]
Er, no. The TB also brought the jump, and probably introduced it into the heavier carriage type horses. In fact I think most warmbloods were carriage and farm horses as well as riding horses before the World Wars.
If talented TBs were to be used now they’d bring their own jump, along with added speed, stamina, and agility.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7602609]
Er, no. The TB also brought the jump, and probably introduced it into the heavier carriage type horses. In fact I think most warmbloods were carriage and farm horses as well as riding horses before the World Wars.
If talented TBs were to be used now they’d bring their own jump, along with added speed, stamina, and agility.[/QUOTE]
Would love to read this research. Could you please post some links?
TIA
Edited to add that I was referencing modern jumper breeding in my previous post. But I had (possibly wrongly) assumed that the Holsteiner mare base could jump prior to adding the TB.
I would also be very interested to hear if anyone is using TBs to add more power to your jumper stock. Would love to know what lines you use.
I am a fan of jumping TBs, but all the lines I am familiar with are jumping most successfully from a gallop.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7603009]
Would love to read this research. Could you please post some links?
TIA
Edited to add that I was referencing modern jumper breeding in my previous post. But I had (possibly wrongly) assumed that the Holsteiner mare base could jump prior to adding the TB.
I would also be very interested to hear if anyone is using TBs to add more power to your jumper stock. Would love to know what lines you use.
I am a fan of jumping TBs, but all the lines I am familiar with are jumping most successfully from a gallop.[/QUOTE]
Why don’t you start by looking up all of the TBs that were successful at Olympic jumping level? You know, Idle Dice, Jet Run, Gem Twist, Touch of Class… there were so many.
The Holsteiner, like the other warmbloods, was a carriage and riding horse in the 18th and 19th centuries, and in the 19th century TBs were used to refine and add athletic ability.
Here’s what Nissen had to say about Ladykiller:
In his review of the ‘Holstein Upgraders’ in Z Magazine, August/September 2004, Jasper Nissen has this to say of Ladykiller xx as a stallion: “Passed on a good temperament, although sometimes a little hot. In spite of his early injuries he did not pass on any defects in the limbs. Produced numerous first class broodmares and licensed stallions, including the top progenitors, Landgraf I and Lord. Founded his own wide-branched stallion line. Ladykiller xx passed on specific characteristics, such as a fine head, an often light brown colour with white on the legs, sometimes less coupled loins, good, powerful and correct bones, very good jumping qualities (lots of guts, power, fine technique and rounded back over the fence), excellent basic gaits and on average, good sized products; his chestnuts were often a bit more noble than his bay offspring.”
If you want very modern jumping stock look at the horses that are jumping at GP level or have produced GP horses. I was pretty much blown off on this board for suggesting a clone of Ready Teddy (he might be a jump killer!) meanwhile as it turns out his sire was producing GP jumpers. RT was unusual in that he had two lines to Precipitation pretty close up, and Precipitation was a very powerful jump progenitor. Look at the pedigrees of Arkansas and Thomas Edison, and Emily Pope’s own mare. There were so many lines that produced top jumpers that a very talented jumper could come from any number of combinations.
Traks were not carriage horses, they were war horses and were very athletic from the start. The Stud was the basis of the selection process still used for Wb’s. They were developed (1732) not much after the Tb (Godolphin Arabian 1729) and used some of the same breeding that that made up Tb’s, aka Arabs. The Stud was created by the same man that held power over much of that region (Prussia) at the time.
Wb’s were not necessarily carriage/draft horses either. They were domestic to the area’s but they were also cavalry horses or riding horses. The Prussian Empire and the Teutonic Knights did not walk into battle. These horses were big, strong, and fast. http://www.ahrtp.com/MedievalWarfareOnLine/tnwarhorsescrossbows.htm
It is a mistake to think no one else was breeding for athleticism but the English.
1735-creation of Celle in order to have athletic horse for war available. Again, using some of the same stock that went into the development of the lighter race horses aka Tb’s.
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