TB kills the jump?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7600588]
But again…I think you are putting too much emphasis on this first quarter sporthorse ranking. So many are absent for this reason or that on this ranking.

I will admit that Holstein is suffering in the sire department. They didn’t do a good job of retaining any sons from Contender , Cassini , Corrado and Caretino. They sold ConAir , Contendro from Contender…don’t have Clinton father of Cornet Obolensky etc.

They only have Casall at the moment who is a top transmitter. They will be just fine as they have the most condensed genes in a herd half the size of other studbooks.

The best sires in the world most always come from France and Holstein. Holstein has been dominate and now France is more dominant.

Nice attempt at trying to divert attention from the Tb’s Viney. Now lets get back to their jump killing thread.[/QUOTE]

Nice attempt at a diversion from your (false) hypothesis that Holsteiner mares are the source of most of the jumping talent in the world. Clearly they are not. There are plenty of other talented mares from other bloodlines too.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7600716]
Coming from a different world and knowing how many thoroughbreds can gallop down to a 6’ or 1.8288 meter fence and knowing how trainable these horses are I find the comment “thoroughbreds kill the jump” absurd. I asked one trainer/rider how you set a horse up for a jump like that and she looked at me and said if you have to set the horse up for the jump then he shouldn’t be in this race.

If a pro can’t take a horse with that much ability and make him a useful show jumper then it’s the pro’s fault, not the horse’s. We all know tbs are successful at the lower levels in the show ring; there is no reason those with exceptional jumping ability won’t be successful at the higher levels also. They have been, they are and they will be if the right people can get their hands on them.

Most people simply cannot afford the thoroughbreds that are also the most exquisite jumpers because they and their breeding come from the racing industry. You’re not going to get your hands on a talented AP Indy without spending a lot of money and it appears to me that sport horse breeders do not have those funds. Saying they kill the jump is a myth created by a cottage industry promoting their own product. It sounds like many of these breeders are very provincial and simply don’t have access to anything other than their own arenas, and in many cases horses. My guess is they haven’t seen thoroughbreds gallop down to 6 ft fences with ten other horses. They don’t know what they don’t know.

You can say all you want about warmbloods winning in the show ring, but don’t use the excuse that tb’s aren’t used in their breeding because they kill the jump, that simply isn’t true. More likely they aren’t used because the best are not available to breeders. Furthermore, thoroughbreds add more speed and agility than many riders can handle. Using that as an argument for not breeding to thoroughbreds is much more logical than saying they kill the jump.

I suspect the breeders who say this are just talking off the tops of their heads and are more driven by their own interests than anything else. I’d have much greater respect for their opinions if they said something like Thoroughbreds add too much speed and agility for today’s competitions.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that I can go and grab a OTTB and it will most likely be suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level? 1.3m or more?

Or only the ones that are successful at racing are going to be the excellent jumpers also so that is why the majority of NA bred Tb’s are not showing up at higher levels?

I really don’t understand how people can champion horses that are not bred for a sport but apparently the majority of Tb’s just luck into the right genetics.

Actually, this is insulting to those people who actually bred Tb’s for show jumping and sport. Families like Chapot, that went out of their way to choose horses with the talent. Or people like Fred on this forum, who was very dedicated in their breeding practices to produce quality horses. Fred is an exceptional horse that was able to pass on UL talent consistently, he is unique and so is his talent. He is one out off thousand and thousands of horses that are suitable.

Apparently, any most any OTTB will do for sport horse breeding and you do not need to be selective, you just need to afford the ones that run well? And breeding for traits is not important if you can breed for a Kentucky derby winner and it also happens that the horse should be under Eric, but Eric can’t ride well enough?

Once again, the question was asked in terms of breeding and not whether an individual horse can jump. And a few remarkable Tb’s (a subset of the overall population) have made invaluable contributions to horses bred for SJ and dressage. Arabs also made some important contributions along the way. But that is a different statement than the average or even above average TB will be suited to breeding for SJ. And many people are thinking in term of amateur activities but the question is speaking to the highest levels, not the pony club, in which case many Tb’s would be suitable as they are an all around athlete at that level. So are good Morgans.

Look at this in terms of genetics. You need to select for the desirable traits or they will not be transmitted with any type of consistency. The research has been done and jumping is highly hereditary. It is also easily deteriorated when non-jumping blood is introduced. If you are not selecting for it…it is not being passed on. If you are selecting other traits, they will be passed on. If you want to see what the strengths of a TB are, ask what the breeders of them are selecting.

30-40 years ago we had more NH bred Tb’s in NA and they definitely were selected to jump and run. Now the majority are bred for flat sprints and to mature early.

Don’t think of this in terms of Tb’s and Wb’s, think of it in terms of horses purpose bred for the sport. To argue otherwise is to dismiss selective breeding and it’s effectiveness. Which is scary on a breeders forum.

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7600716]
Coming from a different world and knowing how many thoroughbreds can gallop down to a 6’ or 1.8288 meter fence and knowing how trainable these horses are I find the comment “thoroughbreds kill the jump” absurd. I asked one trainer/rider how you set a horse up for a jump like that and she looked at me and said if you have to set the horse up for the jump then he shouldn’t be in this race.

If a pro can’t take a horse with that much ability and make him a useful show jumper then it’s the pro’s fault, not the horse’s. We all know tbs are successful at the lower levels in the show ring; there is no reason those with exceptional jumping ability won’t be successful at the higher levels also. They have been, they are and they will be if the right people can get their hands on them.

Most people simply cannot afford the thoroughbreds that are also the most exquisite jumpers because they and their breeding come from the racing industry. You’re not going to get your hands on a talented AP Indy without spending a lot of money and it appears to me that sport horse breeders do not have those funds. Saying they kill the jump is a myth created by a cottage industry promoting their own product. It sounds like many of these breeders are very provincial and simply don’t have access to anything other than their own arenas, and in many cases horses. My guess is they haven’t seen thoroughbreds gallop down to 6 ft fences with ten other horses. They don’t know what they don’t know.

You can say all you want about warmbloods winning in the show ring, but don’t use the excuse that tb’s aren’t used in their breeding because they kill the jump, that simply isn’t true. More likely they aren’t used because the best are not available to breeders. Furthermore, thoroughbreds add more speed and agility than many riders can handle. Using that as an argument for not breeding to thoroughbreds is much more logical than saying they kill the jump.

I suspect the breeders who say this are just talking off the tops of their heads and are more driven by their own interests than anything else. I’d have much greater respect for their opinions if they said something like Thoroughbreds add too much speed and agility for today’s competitions.[/QUOTE]

Prior to this thread’s title, I had never heard the phrase “TBs kill the jump”. I know many breeders who feel that you are likely to lose some of the power when incorporating TB blood, but you are adding agility, stamina, and refinement.
If they really killed the jump, Holstein would not be using them at all. I don’t know why this topic always brings out the extremists.

I wanted to respond to this post about the TB’s ability to gallop down to huge fences. As an owner of a TB who competed to 1.50m, I am obviously going to agree with you about their athleticism. One of the biggest hurdles for them to overcome in today’s showjumping is that most of them jump best out of a gallop and that pace can be a handicap over modern courses.

I am a big fan of Nikki, she reminds me a lot of my mare and they share the same weakness… tending to get flat with speed and thus dropping rails behind. I have watched many videos of TBs at the highest level and have only seen a couple jump 1.60 in classic form. The rest make up for their lack of style with sheer athleticism and heart.

I believe TB blood still has a very important place in jumper breeding, but adding the power of a carrying hind leg is very desirable for the technical courses. The Germans add the blood on top which makes perfect sense given their mare base. The French have had success with adding blood from both sides of the pedigree, so perhaps it’s more important to add the right type of blood than which line it comes through.

I used my mare in my breeding program, so hope to have results to back up my choices in a few years. Unfortunately, unless we find a way to keep better track of the TB marelines we are using they will continue to be a cipher statistically.

[stoicfish]

I know many breeders who feel that you are likely to lose some of the power when incorporating TB blood, but you are adding agility, stamina, and refinement.
If they really killed the jump, Holstein would not be using them at all. I don’t know why this topic always brings out the extremists.

They haven’t used them much at all in the last 20 years.
Tb’s do have other qualities that are suited to UL athletes’ in just about any sport. However, you have to team up those qualities with the jumping or dressage qualities and that becomes harder to find. And if the breed was created with Tb’s that had all the good qualities, then those genetics/qualities are already present in the population. Most Wb’s are 20-40% tb, from older Tb types. And those were carefully selected to have all the needed traits.
Does adding more help? For jumping, the stallion has to have all the needed traits (which is super hard to find in any breed) to improve on the best that is out there.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am starting to wonder if the “TB kills the jump” does not come from the fact that when you cross horses originally bred for fancy harness use (ie. high action) with the daisy-cutting action of the TB, the high action, both front and rear, may suffer.

I am NOT disparaging the high action harness horses. Back in the 19th/early-mid 20th century the European breeders had to add either/or TB or Arab blood to make them into suitable riding horses since the conformation of the harness horses was not as comfortable to ride.
It has turned out that some lines of the higher action horses have great talent for jumping, and since the breeders have already fixed a riding conformation into these breeds there is no NEED to cross with a hot blood any more, at least for several more decades.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@stoicfish;7600855

So you are saying that I can go and grab a OTTB and it will most likely be suited to the sport of SJ at a decent level? 1.3m or more?

Yes…you can find them. They are often not the cheap free ones and you will be in battle with a number of people who are looking for them but yes, there are many of them out there if you know who to buy from. That doesn’t mean there is no point in selective breeding…of course there is, and of course you are taking less of a gamble buying a horse purposely bred to jump. It’s all in what you like to do, the type of horse you like to ride…I personally like the green horses, and personally prefer a more TB ride.

I have horses that I breed…AND OTTBs. I have NO trouble at all finding nice OTTBs that can jump to the 1.3-1.4 meter level (in time with the proper training). I have much more trouble finding a horse that will be an UL eventer…because I want to them to not ONLY jump 1.3-1.4 meters well and competitively, but also move well in the dressage and be sound (both mind and body). But first and foremost, I want them to be good jumpers.

That said…OTTBS are initially “cheaper” than the sport bred WBs. You couldn’t buy one of my unstarted WBs or green broke ones for less than 15K whereas my OTTBs were typically bought for 3500-5500. I’m not buying straight from the track but from re-sellers (before they have retained them though)…so I can sit on them (often I’m the first one on them since they raced), watch them free jump and pop them over a fence or two first. I’m picking horses with both a pedigree that I know has jump…AND the conformation and mind to be trained…and ones that demonstrate some good jumping instincts.

It is substantially harder to do if you are going straight to the track…and that is a gamble I wouldn’t take.

Of course a more selective bred horse…regardless of the breed is the less risky bet…and will (and should) cost more because of it.

But still…1.3-1.4meter is NOT the holy grail impossible to find horse–even in an OTTB. There are a lot of reasonably athletic horses that can jump that level competitively…and certainly a lot of TBs who can even if not purpose bred for it.

Now to jump that level with a CRAP rider on their back and still leave the rails up…that is quite bit harder to find and produce!

And to jump at the 1.5+meter level…that is much harder to find and while there are the rare OTTBs who can do that level, you are much more likely to get to that level with a horse purposely bred for it. And even for purpose bred horses…that is a harder horse to find and produce.

[stoicfish]

bornfree-I agree with much you have said.
But to find a horse that is truly competitive at 1.4m is not common and those horses are around 6 figures. I am talking 1.4m at shows like Spruce, where you are competing against horses that will eventually compete at 1.5m - 1.6m and the courses are hard.

FWIW, I had a track bred mare given to me that had an outrageous jump-over any single fence on the farm. She was 15.2 and had the worst feet, small legs and a horrible personality. She was athletic but not the type that should be bred for a riding horse. She had part of the equation but not enough. Many Tb’s have part of the equation but not the whole package. When you look at breeding for 1.6m horse, that package gets infinitely harder to find, even in the WB world where they are being selected for.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7601016]
bornfree-I agree with much you have said.
But to find a horse that is truly competitive at 1.4m is not common and those horses are around 6 figures. I am talking 1.4m at shows like Spruce, where you are competing against horses that will eventually compete at 1.5m - 1.6m and the courses are hard.

FWIW, I had a track bred mare given to me that had an outrageous jump-over any single fence on the farm. She was 15.2 and had the worst feet, small legs and a horrible personality. She was athletic but not the type that should be bred for a riding horse. She had part of the equation but not enough. Many Tb’s have part of the equation but not the whole package. When you look at breeding for 1.6m horse, that package gets infinitely harder to find, even in the WB world where they are being selected for.[/QUOTE]

I’m not talking about a future 1.6m horse–I agree that is a very hard horse to find. But one that can jump a sized 1.4m course–and yes, I know what I’m talking about and don’t find that horse that hard to find IF you know where to look and what you are looking at…and have the time and skill to produce them to that level.

They are high 5 figure to 6 figures (regardless of OTTB or WB) when you get them to that level or near that level (and yes, I have had a few of mine get to that point…and have a few in my barn now who look like that is well within them to do).

But there are a lot of people that do not know what that horse looks like when they are green. I was lucky enough to work for people like Frank Chapot and others…and one of the things I took away from my time there was what traits to focus on in a diamond in the rough youngsters.

ETA: And often what makes a horse super competitive–especially at the 1.4 m level…is the rider. To find a horse that jumps carefully and is a PACKER at the 1.4 m level…now that is a much HARDER horse to find and produce, and not as likely to be found in an OTTBs (most require more tact).

[Bayhawk]

Again , you guys are referring to horses that virtually no one wants. When is the last time you saw someone looking for a TB jumper with 1.40 meter or above potential ? I am involved with the showjumping scene all over the world and I’ve never heard it once.

Most customers don’t want them because they are not seeing them , competing against them and know little about them. Why would any top professional rider want to risk all the time and money it would take to find out if the particular TB horse was good enough when it has a recent history of being non existent in the top classes ?

This would be an insane buisness decision when that rider can buy known purpose bred horses from purpose bred families which results in the probability of success being much higher.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601230]
Again , you guys are referring to horses that virtually no one wants. When is the last time you saw someone looking for a TB jumper with 1.40 meter or above potential ?[/QUOTE]

I never see anyone caring what their breed is if they can do the job. No, people are not looking for the TB OR the WB…they are looking for the jumper. And if you have a horse with 1.4 meter or above potential, people do not care about the breed other than breeders.

In the US…most are not looking for prospects. They want made horses…horses already jumping at the 1.3-1.4 m level. They care less about the breed as much as is this individual horse doing the job. And in the US…most can’t spot a young horse of any breed with talent unless it is already doing the job…and there is a significant lack of riders with the skill to produce a green horse up the levels…of ANY breed.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7601236]
I never see anyone caring what their breed is if they can do the job. No, people are not looking for the TB OR the WB…they are looking for the jumper. And if you have a horse with 1.4 meter or above potential, people do not care about the breed other than breeders.

In the US…most are not looking for prospects. They want made horses…horses already jumping at the 1.3-1.4 m level. They care less about the breed as much as is this individual horse doing the job. And in the US…most can’t spot a young horse of any breed with talent unless it is already doing the job…and there is a significant lack of riders with the skill to produce a green horse up the levels…of ANY breed.[/QUOTE]

No , they don’t care what breed it is because it is assumed by most that they are purpose bred warmbloods.

I promise you that most riders at 1.40 meter level with aspirations of going bigger WILL NOT visit a TB breeder to get their next mount.

This is what all you TB enthusiasts need in my opinion…

1. Breed purposely for the selected discipline

2. Get good riders that will ride , train and SHOW your TB offspring

3. Create a network amongst yourselves that clearly states you are breeding TB’s for the Olympic disciplines and you are different from sprint breeding

4. Stop living in the past and put your money where your mouth is. Bring one of your offspring to WEF , show it in the 5, 6 , 7 , 8 yr old classes and win something or at least be competitive. Then and only then will you get a second look from the riders and customers in the jumping community.

5. You will not get respect because you demand it or from some heart fluttering days gone by nostalgia…you will have to earn it in the showring.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601257]
No , they don’t care what breed it is because it is assumed by most that they are purpose bred warmbloods.

I promise you that most riders at 1.40 meter level with aspirations of going bigger WILL NOT visit a TB breeder to get their next mount.

This is what all you TB enthusiasts need in my opinion…

1. Breed purposely for the selected discipline

2. Get good riders that will ride , train and SHOW your TB offspring

3. Create a network amongst yourselves that clearly states you are breeding TB’s for the Olympic disciplines and you are different from sprint breeding

4. Stop living in the past and put your money where your mouth is. Bring one of your offspring to WEF , show it in the 5, 6 , 7 , 8 yr old classes and win something or at least be competitive. Then and only then will you get a second look from the riders and customers in the jumping community.

5. You will not get respect because you demand it or from some heart fluttering days gone by nostalgia…you will have to earn it in the showring.[/QUOTE]

Almost not worth responding…other than to stay I really don’t give a crap about the jumper community.

I have NO trouble selling a horse as a jumper when I choose too…and have NO trouble getting respect for even an OTTB that I’m sitting on. When selling them, they would not be prospect then…but doing the job. I have NO desire to do the 5-6 year old jumpers at WEF for a TON of reasons.

My ONLY point was that it is NOT that hard to find numerous horses to do the 1.4m level…and you absolutely can find OTTBs, TB, WB and other crosses capable at that level. The fact that people are making it out to be super tough…holy grail like task…just goes back to the brainwashing done to most riders here in the US. You do not need an exceptional horse for that level–just a decent one.

If you are talking about an international caliber 1.6m+ horse…THAT is a different animal.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7601282]
Almost not worth responding…other than to stay I really don’t give a crap about the jumper community.

I have NO trouble selling a horse as a jumper when I choose too…and have NO trouble getting respect for even an OTTB that I’m sitting on. When selling them, they would not be prospect then…but doing the job. I have NO desire to do the 5-6 year old jumpers at WEF for a TON of reasons.

My ONLY point was that it is NOT that hard to find numerous horses to do the 1.4m level…and you absolutely can find OTTBs, TB, WB and other crosses capable at that level. The fact that people are making it out to be super tough…holy grail like task…just goes back to the brainwashing done to most riders here in the US. You do not need an exceptional horse for that level–just a decent one.

If you are talking about an international caliber 1.6m+ horse…THAT is a different animal.[/QUOTE]

Evidently you have not walked a 1.40 meter track lately. I can certainly tell you that it takes more than just a “decent” horse to be competitive at that level. It takes a damn good horse !

If you really “don’t give a crap about the jumper community” , then why would you be on here arguing your point ? You shouldn’t care what we think.

I’ll say it again…put your money where your mouth is. Prove that you or anyone else can breed TB’s today that can be competitive at 1.40 meter or higher.

When I’m at shows from WEF , to Virginia to Germany and I see one or more that are competitive…I’ll be the first to report it back. Until then…

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601290]
Evidently you have not walked a 1.40 meter track lately. I can certainly tell you that it takes more than just a “decent” horse to be competitive at that level. It takes a damn good horse !

I’ll say it again…put your money where your mouth is. Prove that you or anyone else can breed TB’s today that can be competitive at 1.40 meter or higher.

When I’m at shows from WEF , to Virginia to Germany and I see one or more that are competitive…I’ll be the first to report it back. Until then…[/QUOTE]

I have…and I have seen several TBs…even a few OTTBs competitive at that level. Typically, it is when the event riders come with their 3* horses for some practice in the jumper ring. And more often than not…you probably have no idea that the horse they are on is an OTTB.

My own goals are to bred a 4* event horse. So yes…I have TB mares (and WB mares) in my program. But you will not see me at the jumper ring with them as that is not my goal. One winning a CCI4* would be my aim…some of my culls will likely be in the jumper ring…

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601257]
No , they don’t care what breed it is because it is assumed by most that they are purpose bred warmbloods.

I promise you that most riders at 1.40 meter level with aspirations of going bigger WILL NOT visit a TB breeder to get their next mount.

This is what all you TB enthusiasts need in my opinion…

1. Breed purposely for the selected discipline

2. Get good riders that will ride , train and SHOW your TB offspring

3. Create a network amongst yourselves that clearly states you are breeding TB’s for the Olympic disciplines and you are different from sprint breeding

4. Stop living in the past and put your money where your mouth is. Bring one of your offspring to WEF , show it in the 5, 6 , 7 , 8 yr old classes and win something or at least be competitive. Then and only then will you get a second look from the riders and customers in the jumping community.

5. You will not get respect because you demand it or from some heart fluttering days gone by nostalgia…you will have to earn it in the showring.[/QUOTE]

I don’t consider myself a TB breeder, having only one TB mare in my broodmare herd and crossing her with WBs. But I do believe she has something to add to my program and I absolutely plan to show my youngsters. See you at the ring

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7601294]
I don’t consider myself a TB breeder, having only one TB mare in my broodmare herd and crossing her with WBs. But I do believe she has something to add to my program and I absolutely plan to show my youngsters. See you at the ring :)[/QUOTE]

Good for you ! This is the coolest response ! You believe and you are willing to test your belief. I will be pulling for you !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7601293]
I have…and I have seen several TBs…even a few OTTBs competitive at that level. Typically, it is when the event riders come with their 3* horses for some practice in the jumper ring. And more often than not…you probably have no idea that the horse they are on is an OTTB.[/QUOTE]

Oh please…I can spot a TB from 5 miles away. Where does this idea come from ? There is NO TB that looks like a WB…I will repeat…there is NO TB that looks like a WB. Any good horseman/woman can tell you that.

[tuckawayfarm]

Thanks Bayhawk I have to also thank you for sharing your knowledge, it’s been very helpful.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7601308]
Thanks Bayhawk I have to also thank you for sharing your knowledge, it’s been very helpful.[/QUOTE]

You are welcome. I certainly don’t know it all…but I know what I know.

“Brainwashing” has never entered into the equation. Being a witness to what is successful and always being open to learning sure has though.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7601257]

This is what all you TB enthusiasts need in my opinion…

1. Breed purposely for the selected discipline

2. Get good riders that will ride , train and SHOW your TB offspring

3. Create a network amongst yourselves that clearly states you are breeding TB’s for the Olympic disciplines and you are different from sprint breeding

4. Stop living in the past and put your money where your mouth is. Bring one of your offspring to WEF , show it in the 5, 6 , 7 , 8 yr old classes and win something or at least be competitive. Then and only then will you get a second look from the riders and customers in the jumping community.

5. You will not get respect because you demand it or from some heart fluttering days gone by nostalgia…you will have to earn it in the showring.[/QUOTE]

I removed the opinion parts and am quoting the rest because it is true and applies for all breeders of any type /discipline.

Yes TB’s do not have many champions that are purpose breeding them for sport outside of racing. Saying the talent and genes are not there is wrong but just like with WB’s or any other specialist breed to succeed is is going to take someone willing to dedicate many generations 3 plus ONLY breeding them for sport. To put them back into the mainstream they were 20 / 30 years ago when breeders like the Chapots focused on them.