TB kills the jump?

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7598995]
This means absolutely nothing, since the supply of TB motherlines used for sport in either Germany or the Netherlands is close to zero. When you start from near zero, any statistical analysis is also going to end up near zero. Then the deep seated prejudice just feeds on itself, as you have proved.

So you think there are no good Hanoverian jumpers either?[/QUOTE]

Ahh but it means everything because it is a compilation of all motherlines in the world that have produced top jumping horses.

People breed TB’s all over the world…U.S , UK , Ireland , Australia , Germany , France etc. etc. and not one TB female family shows up with contributing horses.

Yes , I think Hannover breeds SOME Top jumping horses but just not near enough to be mentioned with other top female families.

Just face the music people…TB’s don’t make top jumping horses with any consistency

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7599070]
Ahh but it means everything because it is a compilation of all motherlines in the world that have produced top jumping horses.

People breed TB’s all over the world…U.S , UK , Ireland , Australia , Germany , France etc. etc. and not one TB female family shows up with contributing horses.

Yes , I think Hannover breeds SOME Top jumping horses but just not near enough to be mentioned with other top female families.

Just face the music people…TB’s don’t make top jumping horses with any consistency[/QUOTE]

Of course they don’t, because they are bred for racing. The POINT is that some are EXCELLENT jumpers (and movers, for that matter), and are valuable assets to the sport world and the sport breeding world. I just get sick and tired of hearing people who don’t understand their worth disparage them.

An example: horse looks tense, is declared a bad mover by a warmblood person. No, the horse is not a bad mover, it’s TENSE. It may even still be on the track, and a lot of those horses are tightly wound. Or a champion mare is shown racing around an icy paddock and is declared to have a rigid top line. It’s pretty much impossible to fully evaluate a horse under those circumstances. TBs don’t move the same not matter what the way some warmbloods do. Not a valuable asset? Perhaps. But that ability to change tempo can also be connected to a lot of athleticism.

Another example/ myth: TBs run on their forehand. Nope, not the good ones. The power comes from behind just like any good horse. And we all know that some can push up as well as out. Heck, Secretariat sired a GP jumper.

Plot Blue has a TB motherline (tail female). Butterfly Flip had a TB mother. Butterfly Flip is the dam of 3 Holsteiner X foals. One, a 2006 filly, has done intermediate jumping and is the dam of a foal by ET; another 2009 filly has started a jumping career. Maybe they’ll be able to jump; maybe not; but the Swedish owner doesn’t seem to have been deterred by Butterfly Flips TB motherline.

I just this minute found a Belgian 2010 Nation’s Cup show jumper named Vacant ter Linden who has a TB motherline.

Another statistic to consider. If only .1% of all purpose bred sport horses make it to competition at the 1.4 to 1.6 meter level, and there are so few TB motherlines in sport; and the vast majority of TB mares are in race breeding, why would the absence of them in current sport statistics say anything at all about probability if they were used to the same extent as WB mares.

What is so majikal about the WB mare X chromosome?

And I’m still waiting for someone to cite a study on MtDNA haplogroups and types in WBs so we can see if the MtDNA is different from TB MtDNA. Because until science shows actual quantifiable differences between TB mares and WB mares on the chromosomes that would matter for motherlines, all of the pontificating is (IMO) pure smoke, prejudice and marketing.

Hahaaa. Off topic sorry guys, but I could not resist to LOL -at this “doctoral” with “enough brain” student self-promotion. And this student has been to Germany wow!
Everybody knows that at doctoral level you need some peer criticism. Way to go “doctoral” .
Hope you didn’t borrow much $$ on your parents account. Because w your attitude u will never pay it back!

QUOTE=Tradewind;7579017]TKR, I assume your snarky comment was directed at me.

Not that it’s any of your business, but I have been to Germany and have seen the type of horses they are producing in Holstein. Many of the stallion prospects that fail to be approved there are better jumpers than most of the young jumpers produced in NA. That is the reality of their breeding program: we can produce a few exceptional individuals but they are churning them out over there because their breeding program and philosophy are so much more sophisticated. European breeders use TB where appropriate to complement their mare base, and they are also more realistic about what is needed to improve their breeding stock.

I am also a doctoral student (ie. I do research for a living which, to me, is one of the best ways to educate oneself about good breeding practices). I have enough experience and enough of a brain to develop my own breeding philosophy, thanks very much. ;)[/QUOTE]

http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/2161

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7599132]
Plot Blue has a TB motherline (tail female). Butterfly Flip had a TB mother. Butterfly Flip is the dam of 3 Holsteiner X foals. One, a 2006 filly, has done intermediate jumping and is the dam of a foal by ET; another 2009 filly has started a jumping career. Maybe they’ll be able to jump; maybe not; but the Swedish owner doesn’t seem to have been deterred by Butterfly Flips TB motherline.

I just this minute found a Belgian 2010 Nation’s Cup show jumper named Vacant ter Linden who has a TB motherline.

Another statistic to consider. If only .1% of all purpose bred sport horses make it to competition at the 1.4 to 1.6 meter level, and there are so few TB motherlines in sport; and the vast majority of TB mares are in race breeding, why would the absence of them in current sport statistics say anything at all about probability if they were used to the same extent as WB mares.

What is so majikal about the WB mare X chromosome?

And I’m still waiting for someone to cite a study on MtDNA haplogroups and types in WBs so we can see if the MtDNA is different from TB MtDNA. Because until science shows actual quantifiable differences between TB mares and WB mares on the chromosomes that would matter for motherlines, all of the pontificating is (IMO) pure smoke, prejudice and marketing.[/QUOTE]

Cite the exceptions…“pontificate” on long ago history…dream of days gone by and label all of this prejudice. Beautiful…

Bottom line… time has passed the TB by. I’ve said it before…the only influence they will have is from the TB Stallion in the generational production of the Warmblood… and even that contribution is getting more miniscule by the day.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7598937]
Jac Remijnse has just printed his mare family ranking in this issue of Pferd & Sport. This ranking is the top 25 motherlines (all breeds) in the world for the production of international showjumpers.

He has only been compiling this stat since 2005 so his latest compilation runs from 10 / 01 / 2005 - end of Sept. 2013.
Holsteiner motherlines hold 14 of the top 25 spots including 1,2 and 3.

KWPN - 6
France - 5

No TB female family ranked , no Hannoverian motherline ranked. Tb’s run and Hanns do dressage…it’s pretty simple folks. Their motherlines don’t produce top jumping horses with any regularity.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that the jumper stats are from all shows worldwide from 2005-2013; and from this he is listing the motherlines of these horses?

If otherwise, can you clarify for me where the show stats he uses are from?
Are there non-show stats (predicates, approvals, etc. as any part of the data?

I am curious to know if he is using stats outside of WBFSH data?

Thank you for assisting me, I don’t get the magazine.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7598880]
PSA–never use allbreed for reliable pedigrees unless you can cross check them. For WBs use Horsetelex (http://www.horsetelex.nl/) or Sport Horse Show and Breed Database (http://sporthorse-data.com/) or, for French horses, Webpedigrees (www.webpedigrees.com).[/QUOTE]

Thank you, I should know better than using allbreed.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7599543]
So you are saying that the jumper stats are from all shows worldwide from 2005-2013; and from this he is listing the motherlines of these horses?

If otherwise, can you clarify for me where the show stats he uses are from?
Are there non-show stats (predicates, approvals, etc. as any part of the data?

I am curious to know if he is using stats outside of WBFSH data?

Thank you for assisting me, I don’t get the magazine.[/QUOTE]

He uses the points accumulated from all horses at all international jumping competitions all over the world from all breeds / registries. He takes each horse and finds out which stamm it is from and compiles the mare family rankings from that.

And no…approvals don’t count. Only international jumping competitions.

An example would be Holsteiner mare family (stamm 776 ) which is ranked #1 in the world. This family had 94 horses earning 1,690 points thus making it the #1 mare family for the production of international show jumpers.

Looks as if the day of Holsteiner domination may be passing as well.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/April_Jumping_horse.pdf

Here are the top thirty in the current FEI-WBFSH rankings with their motherlines.

  1. Ursula XII–Scottish Sport horse–Ahorn x Paloma Hanoverian motherline
    2, Cornado NRW Westfalian Holstein motherline
  2. Chiara 222 Holsteiner
  3. Cornet D’Amour Westfalian Westfalian motherline
  4. Quickly de Kreisker SF SF motherline
  5. Cornet’s Cristallo Westfalian Westfalian motherline
  6. Chaman KWPN KWPN motherline
  7. Hello Sanctos sBs SGLD motherline
  8. Blue Angel AES unknown motherline
  9. Regina Z Zang Standardbred damsire, 2nd dam unknown
  10. Ohlala SWB SWB motherline
  11. Rothchild sBs sBs BWP to unknown motherline
  12. Nice Stephanie SWB SWB to (many generations back) Hanoverian motherline
  13. Lacrimoso 3 HDC Holsteiner
  14. Embassy II Hanoverian Hanoverian motherline
  15. Argento AES SWB motherline
  16. Silvana HDC KWPN KWPN to SGLD motherline
  17. Aragon Z Sachsen Arnhalt Sachsen Arnhalt motherline to unknown
  18. Cella BWP BWP to SF motherline
  19. Primeval Dejavu sBs KWPN motherline
  20. Verdi (Vanquidam M) KWPN HOL motherline
  21. Nino des Buissonnets SF SF motherline
  22. Willow (Guidam’s Willow) KWPN motherline
  23. Napoli du Ry OLD Motherline goes back from OLD to HAN to HOL to WEST
  24. Tamira IV KWPN KWPN motherline
  25. Vindicat W KWPN KWPN motherline
  26. Castle Forbes Vivaldo van Het BWP KWPN motherline
  27. VDL Groep Eureka BWP BWP to SGLD motherline
  28. Cabillito OLD (Wallach) Hann, HAN motherline
  29. Mic Mac du Tillard SF SF motherline

I checked every one back to make sure that they didn’t trace to another registry in the far back.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7599543]
So you are saying that the jumper stats are from all shows worldwide from 2005-2013; and from this he is listing the motherlines of these horses?

If otherwise, can you clarify for me where the show stats he uses are from?
Are there non-show stats (predicates, approvals, etc. as any part of the data?

I am curious to know if he is using stats outside of WBFSH data?

Thank you for assisting me, I don’t get the magazine.[/QUOTE]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Jac Remijnse gets his statistics from FEI competitions and includes points earned at levels below the 1.60 most of us associate with international competition. Many successful GP horses in the US, both TB and WB, will never compete in an FEI class.

That means that the motherline of a horse who has many wins at 1.50 here may not ever show up on this list. While the motherline of a Euro based horse who never placed in anything higher than 1.45 classes might be ranked.

US based jumpers are rarely going to show up in statistics taken from FEI results, unless they are Olympic/World Cup hopefuls or are traveling overseas.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7599650]
Looks as if the day of Holsteiner domination may be passing as well.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/April_Jumping_horse.pdf

Here are the top thirty in the current FEI-WBFSH rankings with their motherlines.

  1. Ursula XII–Scottish Sport horse–Ahorn x Paloma Hanoverian motherline
    2, Cornado NRW Westfalian Holstein motherline
  2. Chiara 222 Holsteiner
  3. Cornet D’Amour Westfalian Westfalian motherline
  4. Quickly de Kreisker SF SF motherline
  5. Cornet’s Cristallo Westfalian Westfalian motherline
  6. Chaman KWPN KWPN motherline
  7. Hello Sanctos sBs SGLD motherline
  8. Blue Angel AES unknown motherline
  9. Regina Z Zang Standardbred damsire, 2nd dam unknown
  10. Ohlala SWB SWB motherline
  11. Rothchild sBs sBs BWP to unknown motherline
  12. Nice Stephanie SWB SWB to (many generations back) Hanoverian motherline
  13. Lacrimoso 3 HDC Holsteiner
  14. Embassy II Hanoverian Hanoverian motherline
  15. Argento AES SWB motherline
  16. Silvana HDC KWPN KWPN to SGLD motherline
  17. Aragon Z Sachsen Arnhalt Sachsen Arnhalt motherline to unknown
  18. Cella BWP BWP to SF motherline
  19. Primeval Dejavu sBs KWPN motherline
  20. Verdi (Vanquidam M) KWPN HOL motherline
  21. Nino des Buissonnets SF SF motherline
  22. Willow (Guidam’s Willow) KWPN motherline
  23. Napoli du Ry OLD Motherline goes back from OLD to HAN to HOL to WEST
  24. Tamira IV KWPN KWPN motherline
  25. Vindicat W KWPN KWPN motherline
  26. Castle Forbes Vivaldo van Het BWP KWPN motherline
  27. VDL Groep Eureka BWP BWP to SGLD motherline
  28. Cabillito OLD (Wallach) Hann, HAN motherline
  29. Mic Mac du Tillard SF SF motherline

I checked every one back to make sure that they didn’t trace to another registry in the far back.[/QUOTE]

Viney…you are unbelievable. You say it looks like the Holsteiner dominance is passing and you just willingly supplied the stats that show Horses from Holsteiner motherlines ranked 2nd , 3rd , 14th and 21st out of the top 30 ranked horses in the world.

Let me try and understand this again…“Holsteiner dominance is fading” but they have the 2nd and 3rd ranked horses in the world ? Hmmmmm…Nice try Viney but no cigar.

Also , they own 14 of the top 25 motherlines in the world including 1st ,2nd and 3rd. Fading is not in this horses DNA.

Very different numbers than we would have seen five years ago when something like half of the top twenty were Holsteiners. This time there are 2 purebreds and 2 with Holsteiner motherlines. There were far more tracing to KWPN/SGLD motherlines (maybe 3 times as many), and almost as many Hanoverians and SWBs as HOL.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7600025]
Very different numbers than we would have seen five years ago when something like half of the top twenty were Holsteiners. This time there are 2 purebreds and 2 with Holsteiner motherlines. There were far more tracing to KWPN/SGLD motherlines (maybe 3 times as many), and almost as many Hanoverians and SWBs as HOL.[/QUOTE]

you are not realizing that there are MANY more that were breeding , injured or their rider was injured during this last compilation. I guess you think Casall just dropped of the face of the earth ? No , his rider was injured as an example , thus eliminating Casall from the top 30. It’s safe to assume he would have been there , after all , he has been ranked #1 in the world.

Who do you think made Cornet Obolensky who is sire to many of these horses on the list ? The Holsteiner Stallion Clinton who is by the Holsteiner Stallion Corrado I .

So lets summarize…Holstein possesses 14 of the top 25 motherlines in the world , including the positions of 1st , 2nd and 3rd.

They currently are responsible for the 2nd and 3rd ranked jumpers in the world.

Out of the 30 top ranked sires in the world…13 of those are Holsteiner Stallions…almost 50 % !

Viney says they are fading…

There were 8 Holsteiners of 72 horses at the Jumping World Cup Final this year. There were 11 SFs, and 15 KWPN horses.

Stallions don’t pass on the motherline, and you’re the one who says the quality has to come from the mare line.

Holsteiners and Holstein mare lines certainly aren’t appearing in large numbers in the top jumpers in April 2014. #2 is only 3/4ths HOL, with the other 4th (sire’s dam) sBs to KWPN. There is one registered Holsteiner in the top ten and 3! Westfalians. I’m not saying Holstein genetics aren’t still powerful, as #2 and #3 show, but they are nowhere near as ubiquitous as they were. Maybe other registries will reach a point where they won’t need them any more.

Just for the H of it, I’ll do the top 50 and see if the picture changes. That’s only 20 more; so WTH.

How did the person who ranked the top stamms do his math?

31-50
31. Casell Ask HOL
32. The Sixth Sense WEST West to HAN motherline
33. Elky Van Het Indihof BWP BWP motherline
34. Dream of India Greenfield BWP BWP to unknown motherline
35. Bon Ami BWP sBs to BWP to HAN motherline
36. JL’s Comparse (Komparse) Brandenburger HAN motherline
36. Quality Girl OLD HAN motherline
38. Pasha du Glu SF SF motherline
38. Cristallo A LM HOL
48. Zigali P S KWPN KWPN to NWP motherline
41. Catwalk IV HOL
41. VDL Groep Sapphire B KWPN SF motherline
43. Nice de Prissey SF SF motherline
43. Zenith SFN KWPN KWPN motherline
45. Toulago OLD S OLD to WEST motherline
46. Come Soon OLD OLD to HAN motherline
46. Citizenguard Cajanine Z ZANG HAN motherline
46. Abra Kadabra (Angel RV) KWPN KWPN motherline
46. Quismy des Vaux SF SF motherline
50. Flora de Mariposa BWP BWP motherline

The rankings change every month. FEI publishes the previous ranking as well as the current one. For example, #1 was #1, #2 was #5, #3 was #7, #4 was 21, #5 was #10, etc., etc. Of the top 50, 7 were outside the top 50 in the last ranking, but 3 of those sat at 51. Biggest jump seems to have been from 120 to 38.
https://data.fei.org/Ranking/Search.aspx?rankingCode=S_WR_H

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/38175

[QUOTE=kinscem;7599394]
Hahaaa. Off topic sorry guys, but I could not resist to LOL -at this “doctoral” with “enough brain” student self-promotion. And this student has been to Germany wow!
Everybody knows that at doctoral level you need some peer criticism. Way to go “doctoral” .
Hope you didn’t borrow much $$ on your parents account. Because w your attitude u will never pay it back!

QUOTE=Tradewind;7579017]TKR, I assume your snarky comment was directed at me.

Not that it’s any of your business, but I have been to Germany and have seen the type of horses they are producing in Holstein. Many of the stallion prospects that fail to be approved there are better jumpers than most of the young jumpers produced in NA. That is the reality of their breeding program: we can produce a few exceptional individuals but they are churning them out over there because their breeding program and philosophy are so much more sophisticated. European breeders use TB where appropriate to complement their mare base, and they are also more realistic about what is needed to improve their breeding stock.

I am also a doctoral student (ie. I do research for a living which, to me, is one of the best ways to educate oneself about good breeding practices). I have enough experience and enough of a brain to develop my own breeding philosophy, thanks very much. ;)[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

You’re right, this is off topic. My point was not, “look at me, I’m so impressive, I’m a doctoral student”. I absolutely enter every argument with skepticism and a critical mind. That is why I choose to educate myself about good breeding practices. I have followed this discussion with interest and believe there are some good points made by both sides, I just choose to be on the “warmblood side” based on what I have learned and observed - an opinion I came to on MY OWN. However, I do not stubbornly believe that only warmbloods can be good show jumpers, I am open-minded and would support the brilliant TB jumpers just like the rest of them.

My POINT is that I am entitled to my opinion; the poster I was responding to with my previous post was not providing a thoughtful counterargument to my post, but rather insulting me by suggesting that I couldn’t think for myself. The fact that I’ve been to Germany doesn’t mean I know “everything” about breeding; quite the contrary: the more one learns and experiences, the more one realizes there is to learn. My statement about my having been to Germany was not meant to sound high and mighty, but rather to indicate that I made the trip because I am committed to learning about good breeding practices and developing my own breeding philosophy. However, I felt that the post that I was “regurgitating information I had heard from others”, implying I do not have the ability to develop my own rational opinion, was highly inappropriate and was a personal attack that lent nothing valuable to the discussion. My apologies if I came across as “self-promoting”, that was not my intention (not really sure how that was your impression - I did not out of the blue say, “here is my opinion which is more valuable than anyone else’s because I’m a grad student”, it was not meant as a comparison between myself and anyone else), but the disparaging comment made, suggesting that my opinion was not worthwhile (even though this poster knows NOTHING about me) demanded (in my opinion) a response.

Carry on with this interesting discussion.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7600159]
31-50
31. Casell Ask HOL
32. The Sixth Sense WEST West to HAN motherline
33. Elky Van Het Indihof BWP BWP motherline
34. Dream of India Greenfield BWP BWP to unknown motherline
35. Bon Ami BWP sBs to BWP to HAN motherline
36. JL’s Comparse (Komparse) Brandenburger HAN motherline
36. Quality Girl OLD HAN motherline
38. Pasha du Glu SF SF motherline
38. Cristallo A LM HOL
48. Zigali P S KWPN KWPN to NWP motherline
41. Catwalk IV HOL
41. VDL Groep Sapphire B KWPN SF motherline
43. Nice de Prissey SF SF motherline
43. Zenith SFN KWPN KWPN motherline
45. Toulago OLD S OLD to WEST motherline
46. Come Soon OLD OLD to HAN motherline
46. Citizenguard Cajanine Z ZANG HAN motherline
46. Abra Kadabra (Angel RV) KWPN KWPN motherline
46. Quismy des Vaux SF SF motherline
50. Flora de Mariposa BWP BWP motherline

The rankings change every month. FEI publishes the previous ranking as well as the current one. For example, #1 was #1, #2 was #5, #3 was #7, #4 was 21, #5 was #10, etc., etc. Of the top 50, 7 were outside the top 50 in the last ranking, but 3 of those sat at 51. Biggest jump seems to have been from 120 to 38.
https://data.fei.org/Ranking/Search.aspx?rankingCode=S_WR_H[/QUOTE]

But again…I think you are putting too much emphasis on this first quarter sporthorse ranking. So many are absent for this reason or that on this ranking.

I will admit that Holstein is suffering in the sire department. They didn’t do a good job of retaining any sons from Contender , Cassini , Corrado and Caretino. They sold ConAir , Contendro from Contender…don’t have Clinton father of Cornet Obolensky etc.

They only have Casall at the moment who is a top transmitter. They will be just fine as they have the most condensed genes in a herd half the size of other studbooks.

The best sires in the world most always come from France and Holstein. Holstein has been dominate and now France is more dominant.

Nice attempt at trying to divert attention from the Tb’s Viney. Now lets get back to their jump killing thread.

Coming from a different world and knowing how many thoroughbreds can gallop down to a 5’ or 1.5 meter fence and knowing how trainable these horses are I find the comment “thoroughbreds kill the jump” absurd. I asked one trainer/rider how you set a horse up for a jump like that and she looked at me and said if you have to set the horse up for the jump then he shouldn’t be in this race.

If a pro can’t take a horse with that much ability and make him a useful show jumper then it’s the pro’s fault, not the horse’s. We all know tbs are successful at the lower levels in the show ring; there is no reason those with exceptional jumping ability won’t be successful at the higher levels also. They have been, they are and they will be if the right people can get their hands on them.

Most people simply cannot afford the thoroughbreds that are also the most exquisite jumpers because they and their breeding come from the racing industry. You’re not going to get your hands on a talented AP Indy without spending a lot of money and it appears to me that sport horse breeders do not have those funds. Saying they kill the jump is a myth created by a cottage industry promoting their own product. It sounds like many of these breeders are very provincial and simply don’t have access to anything other than their own arenas, and in many cases horses. My guess is they haven’t seen thoroughbreds gallop down to 5 ft fences with ten other horses. They don’t know what they don’t know.

You can say all you want about warmbloods winning in the show ring, but don’t use the excuse that tb’s aren’t used in their breeding because they kill the jump, that simply isn’t true. More likely they aren’t used because the best are not available to breeders. Furthermore, thoroughbreds add more speed and agility than many riders can handle. Using that as an argument for not breeding to thoroughbreds is much more logical than saying they kill the jump.

I suspect the breeders who say this are just talking off the tops of their heads and are more driven by their own interests than anything else. I’d have much greater respect for their opinions if they said something like Thoroughbreds add too much speed and agility for today’s competitions.