TB kills the jump?

[tom]

[QUOTE=Willesdon;7606359]

The WBFSH do not recognise the Irish Draught as a breed because there are still too many gaps in the breeding record. That makes the foundation animal of the world-beating ISH a ‘type’ and heaven only knows how so many good sport horses come out of Ireland.[/QUOTE]

This is incorrect.

The WBFSH does not pass judgement on what is or what is not a breed. In the European legal context the Irish Draught Horse is a “breed” just like Dutch Warmbloods, Holsteiners, Trakehners, Irish Sport Horses, Irish Warmbloods, etc. are all breeds.

The Irish Draught Horse Studbook could apply for membership in the WBFSH but it would have difficulty becoming a member because its breeding objective is not to produce sport horses, and the WBFSH rules require that member studbooks have breeding policies designed to produce horses for at least one of the Olympic disciplines. The breeding objective of the Irish Draught Horse Studbook is as follows: “[I][I]To breed Irish Draught Horses with conformation, movement and temperament that conform to the breed standard, which will make good quality, sound and versatile horses.”

[/I][/I]Finally the WBFSH rules for membership do not include criteria concerning unrecorded pedigrees, gaps in pedigrees, etc. If it did have even a moderately strict criterion the ISH Studbook would fail because a large percentage, and possibly even a majority, of ISH horses have pedigrees that are not full and complete for five generations. And this is not a historical problem: Last year forty percent of the passports issued by the ISH Studbook were for progeny of unappproved stallions (many of which have sires and/or dams with incomplete pedigrees) and of the sixty percent sired by approved stallions, a substantial portion of their sires and/or dams would have incomplete pedigrees.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7606509]
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html[/QUOTE]

If these type of horses are no longer suited for today’s technical courses how come one STILL sees these horses a lot in today’s top showjumpers pedigrees? Would these horses not be bred out of today’s horses’ pedigrees?

http://jolisporthorses.blogg.se/category/hoppning.html

[Willesdon]

Thank you, Tom, for clearing up my mistake. I will have to go home and re-read ‘The Irish Draught Horse: A History’ by Mary McGrath and Joan Griffith once again. Very interesting book. In 1969, Daphne Machin Goodall, a notable horse person and author, suggested that the ID breed was extinct. Horses are very mutable.

Which has nothing to do with the jumping ability of TBs.

[tuckawayfarm]

Starting to wonder if this is a troll…

None of the horses in your link are TBs

No one is arguing that the TB didn’t play a huge roll in the development of the modern showjumper. Even those who don’t think the addition of more TB blood is needed have stated how important those TB sires have been in Holstein and elsewhere.

The current debate regarding the TB jumper at the upper levels is whether the purebred is still a force there, do we need to continue to infuse new blood into WB pedigrees, or have WBs reached the point where they no longer need additional blood.

Personally, I think there will always be an occasional TB competing at the top whether bred for it or not. I also believe it’s going to be important to keep adding blood every few generations. For those that disagree, it is going to be very important to keep the existing TB bloodlines going or risk reverting to a heavier horse, lacking stamina and agility. So no matter where you stand, no one wants to “breed out” the Ladykiller, Rantzau, Orange Peel, etc.

[Willesdon]

Agree tuckawayfarm . Also depends on the discipline and how horses are recorded

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/597343

Full Hanoverian papers, 76% TB, Gold medal and world and European champion

[Elles]

I meant to say that in case the change of the courses called for different breeding / bloodlines, how come today’s bloodlines are still very much based on the bloodlines from the past (inbreeding/linebreeding to those horses from the past)? Nothing changed drastically in breeding.

[vineyridge]

Courses have been changing since the 1960s, when the French started doing it to favor their SFs.

I still would like to see “history classes” where old jumping courses are used to see if the results would change.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;7609887]
I meant to say that in case the change of the courses called for different breeding / bloodlines, how come today’s bloodlines are still very much based on the bloodlines from the past (inbreeding/linebreeding to those horses from the past)? Nothing changed drastically in breeding.[/QUOTE]

In a breed, things are always based on the success of the past. You would have to change breeds to make that not true. The history has not changed but what is selected has. So you are pairing down the traits that you want from the horses in the distant pedigree.
Look at how refined some of the stallions are and yet most of their pedigree says they should be heavier. The selection process has just taken out the heavier traits over the generations. You can add or subtract to change things.
Mini horse are a process of continually picking the smaller versions to bred back. There is more potential for variation than people realize.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7609912]
Courses have been changing since the 1960s, when the French started doing it to favor their SFs.

I still would like to see “history classes” where old jumping courses are used to see if the results would change.[/QUOTE]

Nowadays the SF breeders are inbreeding/linebreeding to horses like Ibrahim (1952), Ultimate (1941), Jus de Pomme (1931), Vas Y Donc (1921), Fra Diavolo (1938), Plein d’Espoirs (1937) and Orange Peel (1919) and with success.

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/13718
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/flipper-delle/
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&horse=HEUREKA%20DE%20LA%20LOGE&g=5&t=
http://www.webpedigrees.com/pedigreepdf.php?nid=609886
http://www.webpedigrees.com/pedigreepdf.php?nid=280547
http://ww.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10678429&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=759049
http://www.webpedigrees.com/pedigree.php?nid=619334
http://www.webpedigrees.com/pedigree.php?nid=437919
http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/tx_vm19docsbase/plaquette-sport3.pdf
http://obdb.free.fr/etalons/SF%20et%20autres/Quidam-de-Revel.htm

[Mozart]

[QUOTE=Elles;7610006]
Nowadays the SF breeders are inbreeding/linebreeding to horses like Ibrahim (1952), Ultimate (1941), Jus de Pomme (1931), Vas Y Donc (1921), Fra Diavolo (1938), Plein d’Espoirs (1937) and Orange Peel (1919) and with success.[/QUOTE] These horses are so far back, how can you say with any degree of certainty they are the primary reason for current success? As opposed to the horses that those influential stallions helped create? How many generations are between these stallions and the current horses? Once again, the issue is JUMP not just athleticism.

[Elles]

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10563662&blood=10&quota=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ThqWY7X1A0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGblF_VS-2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4NzYBecEho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS2GAHSgNd8

[kinscem]

Quote:
But to find a horse that is truly competitive at 1.4m is not common and…

Look at these links, the Velka Pardubicka Steeplechase in the Czech Republic. Do the TBs kill the jump? I don’t think so.

http://horseracingtripsworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Velka-Pardubicka.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/8892048.jpg

Also it takes a rider to jump big and at speed and not to be “buffered” by dressage scores like in today’s eventing… just added

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=kinscem;7610273]
Quote:
But to find a horse that is truly competitive at 1.4m is not common and…

Look at these links, the Velka Pardubicka Steeplechase in the Czech Republic. Do the TBs kill the jump? I don’t think so.

http://horseracingtripsworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Velka-Pardubicka.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/8892048.jpg

Also it takes a rider to jump big and at speed and not to be “buffered” by dressage scores like in today’s eventing… just added[/QUOTE]

You are speaking of steeple chase as compared to a 1.4m SJ course. And you left out that it was acknowledged that Tb’s bred for steeple chase have very different breeding than NA Tb’s. But the question was in reference to the UL horses and those have way more jump than 1.4m.

Throwing out examples of Tb’s that are athletic and can jump is a whole different deal than a Tb stallion that you can breed to top jumping stock that will not detract from the success in the next generation or two. Which is the point of the thread.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=kinscem;7610273]
Quote:
But to find a horse that is truly competitive at 1.4m is not common and…

Look at these links, the Velka Pardubicka Steeplechase in the Czech Republic. Do the TBs kill the jump? I don’t think so.

http://horseracingtripsworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Velka-Pardubicka.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/8892048.jpg

Also it takes a rider to jump big and at speed and not to be “buffered” by dressage scores like in today’s eventing… just added[/QUOTE]

You are speaking of steeple chase as compared to a 1.4m SJ course. And you left out that it was acknowledged that Tb’s bred for steeple chase have very different breeding than NA Tb’s. But the question was in reference to the UL horses and those have way more jump than 1.4m.

Throwing out examples of Tb’s that are athletic and can jump is a whole different deal than a Tb stallion that you can breed to top jumping stock that will not detract from the success in the next generation or two. Which is the point of the thread.

[Mozart]

stoicfish you are a valiant defender of logic. Give up my friend. Go pat your horses. OP: you just go ahead and tell those fellow KWPN breeders they don’t know what they are talking about, have no idea how to breed a jumper and go find a nice TB to breed your mare to okay?? :yes:

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Mozart;7610422]
stoicfish you are a valiant defender of logic. Give up my friend. Go pat your horses. OP: you just go ahead and tell those fellow KWPN breeders they don’t know what they are talking about, have no idea how to breed a jumper and go find a nice TB to breed your mare to okay?? :yes:[/QUOTE]

Your right.

Stay warm in this “wonderful” weather we are having.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Mozart;7610422]
stoicfish you are a valiant defender of logic. Give up my friend. Go pat your horses. OP: you just go ahead and tell those fellow KWPN breeders they don’t know what they are talking about, have no idea how to breed a jumper and go find a nice TB to breed your mare to okay?? :yes:[/QUOTE]

In absolute full agreement with this ^^^

[vineyridge]

I would need to disagree vehemently that steeplechase horses are a separate type of TB through breeding. In the US most chasers, including timber racers who have to jump solid fences that can be close to 5 feet, are failed flat racers. In the UK, the sires of chasers are usually winning flat racers because the rule is to put speed over stamina. The same lines that make chasers are found in flat racing horses and always have been.

I would say something nasty about the depth of ignorance where TBs are concerned, but I won’t.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7610556]
I would need to disagree vehemently that steeplechase horses are a separate type of TB through breeding. In the US most chasers, including timber racers who have to jump solid fences that can be close to 5 feet, are failed flat racers. In the UK, the sires of chasers are usually winning flat racers because the rule is to put speed over stamina. The same lines that make chasers are found in flat racing horses and always have been.

I would say something nasty about the depth of ignorance where TBs are concerned, but I won’t.[/QUOTE]

And I could say something nasty regarding your depth of ignorance where sporthorse breeding is concerned , but I won’t… so get off your high horse.

It’s easy for you to look in a book , pull something up on line , read an article here or there , but until you actually immerse yourself in the circle of breeding and sport…your books and computer only teach you about 10% of what is actually going on…if that much.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7610358]

Throwing out examples of Tb’s that are athletic and can jump is a whole different deal than a Tb stallion that you can breed to top jumping stock that will not detract from the success in the next generation or two. Which is the point of the thread.[/QUOTE]

That’s your point of the thread.

The actual quote and question was whether or not breeding to a thoroughbred will kill the jump in a warmblood. Many of us are simply trying to dispel that myth. The thoroughbred may add other qualities to the get that will make winning at that level difficult, but the jump is not going to suffer. That is of course assuming you use a tb with the desirable conformation for jumping.

There are a few more myths to dispel about thoroughbreds and jumping. Twice in this thread it was said that thoroughbreds have a powerful jump when galloping and thus their success at jumping 5 and 6 foot jumps when steeplechasing. But even perfectly conditioned steeplechasers can’t fly every jump and remain competitive in a four mile race. It takes too much energy to fly them. In an interview with Jody Petty, jockey of this year’s winner of The Maryland Hunt Cup riding Guts for Garters, he said that at the 16th fence, the largest jump on the course, his horse was forced to jump it from almost a standstill after another horse darted into his path.

Guts for Garters was bred in Ireland but in the forth generation you see many North American bred horses; Riverman Nijinsky, a mare by Chieftan, a mare by Swaps and Bold Lad is by Bold Ruler. The second place horse in the 2014 Maryland Hunt Cup was Imperial Way, by Point Given out of a Rahy mare; very American breeding. Imperial Way started his racing career at Belmont and moved into steeplechasing as a second career.

Imperial Way’s sire, Point Given, doesn’t have the classic show horse look and I doubt if anyone in the world of warmblood breeding would consider breeding to him or his phenotype. Similarly, the look of Northern Dancer horrified jumper breeders in Europe. But look what Northern Dancer did for steeplechasing, he sired Northern Baby and Nijinsky. As a side note, Northern Dancer is way back in Guts for Garters pedigree.

For those of you who said thoroughbreds who can jump are too hard to identify at the race track, it’s interesting to note that Guts for Garters was bought after his current trainer watched him on a video. She did not fly to Ireland and look at him before buying him. She grew up around steeplechasing and knows her game. It’s there for anyone to learn.

By writing this I’m not suggesting that warmblood breeders or any sporthorse breeder change a strategy that works for them. However, I do think they should be careful about making sweeping statements about a subject where they seem to have limited knowledge. In the end they discredit themselves.