TB kills the jump?

[D_BaldStockings]

Here in the good ol’ USA we call this upgrading.

You take a NN dam and breed it to a sire of your purebred breed of choice, then the daughter to a different sire of that same purebred breed. After several 4 or 5 usually generations, your animal is upgraded to the ‘real’ registry. Very common with cattle.

No one calls the final product the NN breed anymore. They call it the breed of choice sire name registry.

The WB studbooks are predicated on a Birthplace of the offspring plus qualifying for upper or lower books within the regional birthplace registry.

No one is saying they are not great jumpers or parents of jumpers.
Simply that birth region has less to do with quality than genetic origin does.

If the genetic origin says TB, the birth region doesn’t override that somehow.
The genes are what they are: Foundation plus TB, SF, Shagya, etc.

If you haven’t noticed adding TB to WB goes in cycles and it is likely that there may be another cycle in the distant (to you) future of say a decade or so, well, history is there to teach you if you care to look.

[D_BaldStockings]

Bayhawk,

I am getting the distinct feeling that you are a 2 generation breeder with no interest in sires/dams further back?

Everyone has their own plan. Best wishes on a successful group of horses bred by you coming to the fore in show jumping in the next decade.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619248]
Here in the good ol’ USA we call this upgrading.

You take a NN dam and breed it to a sire of your purebred breed of choice, then the daughter to a different sire of that same purebred breed. After several 4 or 5 usually generations, your animal is upgraded to the ‘real’ registry. Very common with cattle.

No one calls the final product the NN breed anymore. They call it the breed of choice sire name registry.

The WB studbooks are predicated on a Birthplace of the offspring plus qualifying for upper or lower books within the regional birthplace registry.

No one is saying they are not great jumpers or parents of jumpers.
Simply that birth region has less to do with quality than genetic origin does.

If the genetic origin says TB, the birth region doesn’t override that somehow.
The genes are what they are: Foundation plus TB, SF, Shagya, etc.

If you haven’t noticed adding TB to WB goes in cycles and it is likely that there may be another cycle in the distant (to you) future of say a decade or so, well, history is there to teach you if you care to look.[/QUOTE]

Please get it thru your head that 99% of the top sporthorses of today are NOT from genetic TB origin. You guys are really showing your lack of knowledge with each passing post.

[vineyridge]

Anyone here ever heard of a TB stallion, HOL approved, named Cyrkon? He has a 2011 foal by Coolidge’s dam? A filly, even.

Cyrkon is a Polish bred TB, but he is filled with US lines. His sire was Enjoy Plan, Alydar x Bel Sheba, so a full brother to Alysheba; the dam is interesting because her damsire is classic German with Surumu, Dschingis Khan, she has a very nice sex balanced top and bottom double to Relic, but the dam line is mostly Eastern European with Russian, Hungarian and Polish horses. Horse has all three of the foundation stallions on the first page. Nice looking fellow.
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10478521

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7619254]
Please get it thru your head that 99% of the top sporthorses of today are NOT from genetic TB origin. You guys are really showing your lack of knowledge with each passing post.[/QUOTE]

Tail male to TB. Very, very few non TB sire lines extant.

Yes, most Tail female are old type WB origin. Wouldn’t be NN studbook otherwise.

You might do better to stick to the informative parts of your posts: tossing baseless insults invites people to think less of you.

There certainly are TB genetics in the sporthorses of today: the Y genes, for example in every male, including your beloved sires of most studbooks.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7619353]
Anyone here ever heard of a TB stallion, HOL approved, named Cyrkon? He has a 2011 foal by Coolidge’s dam? A filly, even.

Cyrkon is a Polish bred TB, but he is filled with US lines. His sire was Enjoy Plan, Alydar x Bel Sheba, so a full brother to Alysheba; the dam is interesting because her damsire is classic German with Surumu, Dschingis Khan, she has a very nice sex balanced top and bottom double to Relic, but the dam line is mostly Eastern European with Russian, Hungarian and Polish horses. Horse has all three of the foundation stallions on the first page. Nice looking fellow.
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10478521[/QUOTE]

Of course I know about this foal as I just bought Coolidge’s mother back in March. It is a super filly which is obviously retained by the breeder for generational breeding…thus further illustrating my point about the only TB contributions today are in the generational production of the warmblood.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619373]
Tail male to TB. Very, very few non TB sire lines extant.

Yes, most Tail female are old type WB origin. Wouldn’t be NN studbook otherwise.

You might do better to stick to the informative parts of your posts: tossing baseless insults invites people to think less of you.

There certainly are TB genetics in the sporthorses of today: the Y genes, for example in every male, including your beloved sires of most studbooks.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t hurl an insult at you but speaking with you is like banging your head against the wall when you come forth with the un-informed comment about TB origins.

99% of all sporthorses of today do not originate from TB origins. Why do you fight this ? This is an absolute fact…if it wasn’t , you would have some TB mare families ranked somewhere but you don’t.

Just because a TB stallion was inserted in generational breeding , does not mean that line is from a TB origin.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7619254]
… 99% of the top sporthorses of today (at least jumpers) are NOT from genetic TB parents (not origin).[/QUOTE]

There. Now the post is possibly accurate (I don’t have exact percentages, nor do you, I expect, and I assume you are most familiar with jump, rather than Event data).

Of course if you meant to post an OPINION, rather than a FACTUAL STATEMENT, you may state freely…and we may disagree freely, as well; and not be open to insult.

It’s called presenting your position in debate, not mudslinging without foundation.

The jumpers themselves are wonderful! Whatever studbook.
I hope to see more registered TB and the offspring of the Gemini stock, too in the GP rings in future.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7619385]
I didn’t hurl an insult at you but speaking with you is like banging your head against the wall when you come forth with the un-informed comment about TB origins.

99% of all sporthorses of today do not originate from TB origins. Why do you fight this ? This is an absolute fact…if it wasn’t , you would have some TB mare families ranked somewhere but you don’t.

Just because a TB stallion was inserted in generational breeding , does not mean that line is from a TB origin.[/QUOTE]

Amazing that mare lines alone are what you consider origin.
At least I understand your fallacy, now.

[D_BaldStockings]

Start with a Shetland pony mare.

breed to a TB.

Cross it to another Shetland x TB.

back cross to another TB.
Then Demi-sang.
Then Anglo Arab.
Now breed the offspring to each other for several generations.
add another TB cross.
Breed the offspring to each other for a few more generations.

Repeat for 50 years.

You don’t have a Shetland anymore… unless you change the Shetland registry to include all the offspring and have a Shetland Sporthorse.

But by gosh that tail female is Shetland origin! TB? What TB?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619399]
Start with a Shetland pony mare.

breed to a TB.

Cross it to another Shetland x TB.

back cross to another TB.
Then Demi-sang.
Then Anglo Arab.
Now breed the offspring to each other for several generations.
add another TB cross.
Breed the offspring to each other for a few more generations.

Repeat for 50 years.

You don’t have a Shetland anymore… unless you change the Shetland registry to include all the offspring and have a Shetland Sporthorse.

But by gosh that tail female is Shetland origin! TB? What TB?[/QUOTE]

Sporthorses in Europe were not produced with the bizarre analogy you just brought forth.

Just pick one…Cassini for example. Capitol / Caletto II / Mahmud / Cobalt / Heideprinz stamm 3389. Is he a TB ?

Contender - Calypso II / Ramiro / Ladykiller xx / Heidekrug / Loretto stamm 2472. Since Ladykiller xx is 3rd sire of Contender…I guess Contender is a TB ?

Here’s one with a substantial amount of TB blood. Corrado v. Corde la bryere / Capitol / Maestose xx / Frivol xx / Fanal / Heinzelmann stamm 6879. I guess because Corrado has two TB Stallions in a row in the 3 and 4th generations he is now a TB ?

WOW !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619399]
Start with a Shetland pony mare.

breed to a TB.

Cross it to another Shetland x TB.

back cross to another TB.
Then Demi-sang.
Then Anglo Arab.
Now breed the offspring to each other for several generations.
add another TB cross.
Breed the offspring to each other for a few more generations.

Repeat for 50 years.

You don’t have a Shetland anymore… unless you change the Shetland registry to include all the offspring and have a Shetland Sporthorse.

But by gosh that tail female is Shetland origin! TB? What TB?[/QUOTE]

Sporthorses in Europe were not produced with the bizarre analogy you just brought forth.

Just pick one…Cassini for example. Capitol / Caletto II / Mahmud / Cobalt / Heideprinz stamm 3389. Is he a TB ?

Contender - Calypso II / Ramiro / Ladykiller xx / Heidekrug / Loretto stamm 2472. Since Ladykiller xx is 3rd sire of Contender…I guess Contender is a TB ?

Here’s one with a substantial amount of TB blood. Corrado v. Corde la bryere / Capitol / Maestose xx / Frivol xx / Fanal / Heinzelmann stamm 6879. I guess because Corrado has two TB Stallions in a row in the 3 and 4th generations he is now a TB ?

WOW !

[D_BaldStockings]

And you may have missed my post where I stated that a TB must have both parents registered in the TB studbook, no outside genetics, not even from horses of proven, but unregistered TB background or produced by other than natural cover.

Why you would think that a statement that a horse traces to TB top sire line means I believe the horse is TB I have no idea. I don’t.

Why you believe that a high percentage TB ancestry WB means that the TB is no longer and never again will be useful in WB breeding; and that the TB genetics are now non-existent because they are not in the first generations of the pedigree I disagree with. That is not how genetics works.

You will note that WB pedigrees do not list % of Dutch vs. % Hannover vs. % Oldenburg vs. % Holstein…
because they are studbooks, not closed breeds, as is the TB.
The Studbook name is not specific to a subset group of WB horses genetically, it is regional in origin and the directors choose the direction of the breeding stock into the future - within the region.

-Specific to an ongoing inclusive subset of horses that are bred for, trained for, compete in, and do well at specific sport disciplines- absolutely.

Note that a TB may be approved as a WB sire in most registries on performance or progeny probably plus inspection. This is simply impossible for a non-TB to become approved to breed TBs.

I don’t think these horses are TB.

I also don’t think it reasonable to discount the TB heritage of these horses any more than it is reasonable to discount the female input and the decisionmakers that directed the breedings made to get to today.

Hint: They aren’t DONE yet.
There are still some TBs that can compete with WB in Olympic Sport disciplines, including the athletic GP jumper. The fact that such close-bred animals as TBs that are race-bred can be competitive means there is more to be done in perfecting the Show jumper.
There are no WB that can compete with TB in racing (except possibly the French demi-sang if they still breed those for racing).

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7619431]
Sporthorses in Europe were not produced with the bizarre analogy you just brought forth.

Just pick one…Cassini for example. Capitol / Caletto II / Mahmud / Cobalt / Heideprinz stamm 3389. Is he a TB ?

Contender - Calypso II / Ramiro / Ladykiller xx / Heidekrug / Loretto stamm 2472. Since Ladykiller xx is 3rd sire of Contender…I guess Contender is a TB ?

Here’s one with a substantial amount of TB blood. Corrado v. Corde la bryere / Capitol / Maestose xx / Frivol xx / Fanal / Heinzelmann stamm 6879. I guess because Corrado has two TB Stallions in a row in the 3 and 4th generations he is now a TB ?

WOW ![/QUOTE]

You are giving pedigrees by sire, dam, dam’s sire, dam’s dam, her sire, dam’s dam’s dam, etc.
Only giving the tail females and their sires, completely omitting the pedigrees of the sires in each generation before. No wonder you discount over 75% of the pedigree of any horse you study.

Stallion pedigree’s are important, too.
Not just their female side.
Both.

WOW!!

[Stoney447]

@D_BaldStockings;7619513

You are giving pedigrees by sire, dam, dam’s sire, dam’s dam, her sire, dam’s dam’s dam, etc.

Not to get in the middle, but Bayhawk, like most warmblood breeders is listing pedigree as: Sire, Damsire, Granddamsire and so on. He has not listed any female horses in his mention of the pedigree specifically. The tail female is denoted by the stamm.

[D_BaldStockings]

"Here’s one with a substantial amount of TB blood. Corrado v. Corde la bryere / Capitol / Maestose xx / Frivol xx / Fanal / Heinzelmann stamm 6879. I guess because Corrado has two TB Stallions in a row in the 3 and 4th generations he is now a TB ? "

Note that Cor de la Bryere is by Rantzau TB, out of Quenotte whose topline grandsire was Furioso TB, the rest of his pedigree French Demi-sang and French Trotter.

Capitol I 's sire line is to Cottage Son TB in 2 generations, his dam’s sire is by Manometer TB, in fact none of the 4 great grandsires of Capitol I is other than a TB or Anglo-Arab (Ramzes the AA).

You have to go back to 1944 before finding the Holstein-ancestor-only mare origin in this pedigree. Contiane. That would be 2014-1944… 70 years.

And my analogy was wrong…where? Just substitute WB mare for Shetland pony mare.

If you are only using the tail female, you really are not aware of what the full pedigree of an animal offers to the future.

And there are significantly more than 2 TB’s in that entire pedigree
(identical sibling, there were several of the same mare+sire cross)
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=298008

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Stoney447;7619533]
Not to get in the middle, but Bayhawk, like most warmblood breeders is listing pedigree as: Sire, Damsire, Granddamsire and so on. He has not listed any female horses in his mention of the pedigree specifically. The tail female is denoted by the stamm.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, but list the pedigree as such implies that the person understands and knows the pedigree of the sires involved and therefore doesn’t have to list them out.
Ignoring the horses behind the sire line at each generation is breeder folly.
Stating a pedigree argument based on tail dam only data is incomplete and no informed breeder of any domestic animal …

I’ll stop now before mate-er, not breeder comes to mind…

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619560]
Absolutely, but list the pedigree as such implies that the person understands and knows the pedigree of the sires involved and therefore doesn’t have to list them out.
Ignoring the horses behind the sire line at each generation is breeder folly.
Stating a pedigree argument based on tail dam only data is incomplete and no informed breeder of any domestic animal …

I’ll stop now before mate-er, not breeder comes to mind…[/QUOTE]

All I am saying is the way he listed the pedigree is common convention in warmbloods. I understand that you don’t agree with that.

I was making no comment on your points other than to point out the fact that he did not list the dam and granddam as you had said in your response to him.

The only thing that I do want to say in regard to this current line of discussion is that, sure the horses are referred to the way Bayhawk listed, but that does not mean that the breeder is not cognizant of the sire and his contribution. There is a reason that the breeder picked that sire to breed to his/her precious mare. Noone is saying that the sire does not change or improve the mare. If it didn’t then we would all just clone the mares that we have and be done with it.

Edit: Removed part of post to keep things more concise.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619560]
Absolutely, but list the pedigree as such implies that the person understands and knows the pedigree of the sires involved and therefore doesn’t have to list them out.
Ignoring the horses behind the sire line at each generation is breeder folly.
Stating a pedigree argument based on tail dam only data is incomplete and no informed breeder of any domestic animal …

I’ll stop now before mate-er, not breeder comes to mind…[/QUOTE]

See , you really don’t have much of an understanding of pedigrees at all.

I listed ALL Stallions in the pedigree…no mention of one mare until of course you see the stamm # at the end. I know the pedigree of every sire on the paper.

Why do I know every sire I listed ? Because I know all their mothers !

I give a lot of credit to the TB Stallions of the past for helping to shape today’s WB sporthorses across all books. That day is gone and we must now linebreed to the great ones when needed because there are no good ones to use directly. Today TB Stallions get less than 1% of all warmblood mares. Their day is over as most breeders have little to confidence in them.

I will not respond to your mater slur…

[Elles]

You are not seriously saying that this type was bred for jumping:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/420454/820/Horse_Krassier-big.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/72968/066/Horse_Cicero_II-big.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/13676/000/Horse_Holderness-big.jpg Holderness: At stud in Celle 1844-1861. Died in 1861. Classified as a Type III (heavy coachhorse) - xx/ox ca.25.00%?

Because that is what you had if there was not a lot of TB involved. By no means am I saying that the horses have faulty conformation but they were bred for pulling and not for riding.
That type of horses was imported into The Netherlands and it was used for agricultural work and pulling a carriage.