A horse that is 76.17% TB is now a “Hanoverian…period”. Must be the 23.83% whatever that overcame the jump killing TB blood. :lol:
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;7618162]
A horse that is 76.17% TB is now a “Hanoverian…period”. Must be the 23.83% whatever that overcame the jump killing TB blood. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Sam is registered Baden-Wurtemburg not Hannoverian. His dam is also registered BW. His second dam is Hanoverian, so the 25% that is not TB is Hannoverian. But he is no more Hanoverian than TB.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...article4459286
Above all, Ellis will avoid the type of obstacles used at the 1968 Mexico Olympics, with a round that featured six of the biggest jumps ever built for an Olympic competition. Some riders called it “terrifying.”
Only two horses negotiated that round cleanly. A Canadian team that included Jim Elder, Jim Day and Tom Gayford won the gold medal with 102.75 faults, while it’s much more common for the winning team to have about 20 faults. (Every time a horse lowers the height of a fence, they incur four faults. The fewer faults, the better.)
“I never saw fences that big,” said Palacios, speaking of Mexico. “And I never built fences that big.”
One of them required the horses to clear a huge oxer (a jump with two standards, requiring the horses to jump width as well as height) with a front rail that stood five feet, nine inches high and a back rail that was six feet high at the back – with a spread of seven feet, three inches.
Horses also had to clear a giant wall that was five feet, nine inches high – after coming off a turn.
The horse who won the individual gold that year was an American TB.
The Dutch are still prepared to inspect TB stallions, right? If not, they were until recently.
O yes, and the studbooks would love to approve a few ones. But not a lot are offered because in these days hardly anyone is using them anymore. Because everyone thinks that they are only good for making a heavier mare lighter. And there are not so many heavy mares around anymore.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7618273]
The horse who won the individual gold that year was an American TB.[/QUOTE]
William Steinkraus on Snowbound. There’s a video of his round (intro shows an up-close shot of an oxer set to the specs of that huge 1.80 m one)–available elsewhere on COTH (hunter/jumper) and also YouTube. Absolutely spectacular!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7618267]
Sam is registered Baden-Wurtemburg not Hannoverian. His dam is also registered BW. His second dam is Hanoverian, so the 25% that is not TB is Hannoverian. But he is no more Hanoverian than TB.[/QUOTE]
Ooops…the publication I have says he is a Hanoverian. No matter…he is STILL NOT A TB !
We know you have loyalty to the Holsteiners, Bayhawk, but you cannot mean that the 75% Tb in Snowbound did not have any part of him winning Gold?
I don’t think anybody is saying that today’s breeding is not producing a spectacular sporthorse…The WB puts a ‘warmer’ temperament on a horse for those who do not like working with TB’s sensitivity. A horse can be ready for market quicker. TB’s need to be taken at their own speed, the TB puts the speed and heart and desire into the horse.
The recipe calls for the right mixes to make a sane, sesnsible, brave, competitive horse. As more and more emphasis has been placed on interior qualities, the term ‘dumb blood’ is now almost obsolete…but it was there once. The TB put the ‘go’ into the breeds.
It would be a very big shame if the TB lines that had sporthorse qualities were lost to the desire to produce a very fast, precocious, lightweight sprinter that could not hold up to long term work.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7618894]
We know you have loyalty to the Holsteiners, Bayhawk, but you cannot mean that the 75% Tb in Snowbound did not have any part of him winning Gold?
I don’t think anybody is saying that today’s breeding is not producing a spectacular sporthorse…The WB puts a ‘warmer’ temperament on a horse for those who do not like working with TB’s sensitivity. A horse can be ready for market quicker. TB’s need to be taken at their own speed, the TB puts the speed and heart and desire into the horse.
The recipe calls for the right mixes to make a sane, sesnsible, brave, competitive horse. As more and more emphasis has been placed on interior qualities, the term ‘dumb blood’ is now almost obsolete…but it was there once. The TB put the ‘go’ into the breeds.
It would be a very big shame if the TB lines that had sporthorse qualities were lost to the desire to produce a very fast, precocious, lightweight sprinter that could not hold up to long term work.[/QUOTE]
Not a TB , not a TB , not a TB , no matter the blood %…maybe I should start calling horses with 75% Holsteiner blood Holsteiners even though they are or not ?
You can’t assume credit for any horse that’s not 100% TB…it’s that simple.
People still seem confused about WB Studbooks vs. closed book Registries (Thoroughbred).
Any horse of approved ancestry can be presented for approval in WB book (fill in the blank) and if approved, regardless of its registry or breed affiliation, it’s offspring by also approved mates may now be included in and accrue merit to WB registry (fill in the blank).
Horses may have much or little of several ancestry groups appearing in their pedigrees.
As most WB databases discount ancestors over 4 generations distant it becomes less clear where various traits originate from.
Thoroughbreds of 100 or more years ago are still compared to modern horses, their times are compared and direct ancestral lines’ traits are easily seen to this day.
WBs of 100 or 70 years ago are not comparable to modern WB horses in type or performance. Registry names have been retained as representing regional studbooks and some original mare families in the WB.
Not even the WBFSH calls their members ‘Breeds’ but only ‘Studbooks’ or Registries.
No WB can ever become a TB.
A TB in one approved breeding generation can ‘become’ a WB. in two or three the descendants forget their ancestors as if genetically a grey great grandparent has nothing to do with the direct line of grey that produced a current grey WB foal.
Breeders are now arguing that TBs are ‘holes’ in a pedigree and that no more should be used? Contradicting a process used by two centuries of horse breeders all over the world in many, many registries?
And let us not forget EVERY horse was purpose bred, though not for the same purposes for different breeds/registries.
This entire discussion would not be happening if TB’s were NOT eligible to be included in the breeding pool available to WB breeders: apparently someone in the upper decision-makers of the various registries still has an open mind.
Poof!
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7618912]
Not a TB , not a TB , not a TB , no matter the blood %…maybe I should start calling horses with 75% Holsteiner blood Holsteiners even though they are or not ?
You can’t assume credit for any horse that’s not 100% TB…it’s that simple.[/QUOTE]
You already do call horses with 75% ‘blood’ their registry affiliation. No need to change at all.
Denying the Holsteiner influence on other WB registries? Not hearing that from you. Quite the contrary.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7618894]
We know you have loyalty to the Holsteiners, Bayhawk, but you cannot mean that the 75% Tb in Snowbound did not have any part of him winning Gold?[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify: I think you mean Sam, the “WB” referred to above, who is actually 75+% TB. Snowbound was 100% TB, registered as Gay Vic with the Jockey Club.
I STILL think it’s weird how WB fans claim that any horse with any percentage of WB is a WB, even if it’s predominantly TB.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7618955]
You already do call horses with 75% ‘blood’ their registry affiliation. No need to change at all.
Denying the Holsteiner influence on other WB registries? Not hearing that from you. Quite the contrary.[/QUOTE]
No but I cant call Comme il Faut a Holsteiner even though he is about 90 % Holsteiner by blood . He is in fact a Westfalen… BORN AND BRED
I can certainly lay claim to Chinn Chinn, Indoctro , Corland , Clinton etc.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7618912]
Not a TB , not a TB , not a TB , no matter the blood %…maybe I should start calling horses with 75% Holsteiner blood Holsteiners even though they are or not ?
You can’t assume credit for any horse that’s not 100% TB…it’s that simple.[/QUOTE]
Foxtrot misstated that Snowbound wasn’t TB, confusing Viney’s ealier post on a different horse with Snowbound.
He was. Gold over the biggest fences ever in the Olympics.
“He was a dark bay gelding, measuring a scant 16.1 hands high, by Hail Victory out of Gay Alvena (hence his registered name, Gay Vic). He was a paternal grandson of the celebrated English sire Blenheim II, and had jumping blood on both sides of his pedigree.”
Pity about the Holsteiner registered INDOCTRO’s ancestry…
The doubled ancestors are
Cottage Son - TB
Ramzes - Anglo Arab (TB x Shagya)
CorDe a Bryere - Selle Francais (TB x French Demi-sang)
single is
Manometer TB
Sherry Netherland TB
All visible in the pedigree
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=605118
It’s a wonderful jump pedigree and he is a good sire.
Wonder where that came from… could be some of those TB genes carried down?
…and look what registries his foals are in: many are not Holsteiners so I guess they are now worth less…
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=605118&z=LEzpUz
Thanks!
Chinn Chinn?
I assume you mean the HOL one, there is no double n found there?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=chinn+chinn&x=0&y=0
If so, that would be a 1978 model, which is too ‘old’ for you to value per your earlier posts discounting 2000 and earlier horses of non-Holsteiner registration?
http://www.superiorhorse.net/chinchin.html
Oops! Look at all those TB ancestors, Cottage Son, Anblick, Sorgenbrecher, … my, my.
And Arjamant - TB appears as a doubling ancestor…
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=chin+chin&sex=&color=&dog_breed=HOL&birthyear=&birthland=
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619160]
Pity about the Holsteiner registered INDOCTRO’s ancestry…
The doubled ancestors are
Cottage Son - TB
Ramzes - Anglo Arab (TB x Shagya)
CorDe a Bryere - Selle Francais (TB x French Demi-sang)
single is
Manometer TB
Sherry Netherland TB
All visible in the pedigree
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=605118
It’s a wonderful jump pedigree and he is a good sire.
Wonder where that came from… could be some of those TB genes carried down?
…and look what registries his foals are in: many are not Holsteiners so I guess they are now worth less…
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=605118&z=LEzpUz[/QUOTE]
You just dont get it…no one is taking credit from the Tb’s influence but you are still acting as if they are still being used like this today.
Their influence has to be there. Just like Capitol and Caletto II also had to be there in Indoctro’s pedigree.
I love Indoctro babies no matter if they carry Holst , Dutch , BWP papers or not.
He is one of the worlds best sires , no matter where he breeds.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7619181]
Chinn Chinn?
I assume you mean the HOL one, there is no double n found there?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=chinn+chinn&x=0&y=0
If so, that would be a 1978 model, which is too ‘old’ for you to value per your earlier posts discounting 2000 and earlier horses of non-Holsteiner registration?
http://www.superiorhorse.net/chinchin.html
Oops! Look at all those TB ancestors, Cottage Son, Anblick, Sorgenbrecher, … my, my.
And Arjamant - TB appears as a doubling ancestor…
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=chin+chin&sex=&color=&dog_breed=HOL&birthyear=&birthland=[/QUOTE]
ANCESTORS ! You said it yourself ! ANCESTORS ! None today though…
