TB kills the jump?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;7616420]
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/131972
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLbil_S6bhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5qrzRwzbFI

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10742231
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/amaryllis29[/QUOTE]

Is this the Grey Glory in the pedigree of Amaryllis? http://www.pedigreequery.com/grey+glory3. That would make sense, with 3 crosses to Blue Larkspur.

[Scaramouch]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7616500]
Is this the Grey Glory in the pedigree of Amaryllis? http://www.pedigreequery.com/grey+glory3. That would make sense, with 3 crosses to Blue Larkspur.[/QUOTE]

Can’t be, that’s a stallion. This is more likely the one:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/grey+glory5

[Elles]

Very strange, not on file:
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=PROCESS_SUBMIT&horse_name=grey+glory&foaling_year=1958&dam_name=&nicking_stats_indicator=Y&x=22&y=15

[Elles]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;7616515]
Can’t be, that’s a stallion. This is more likely the one:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/grey+glory5[/QUOTE]

Yes, that must be her!

[vineyridge]

According to Equineline, Grimpeuse was a Belgian bred TB. Grey Glory was also Belgian bred by the Hyperion son Aldis Lamp out of the US bred Amfortas daughter, Griselle, whose dam was Kabarda by Chubasco per the EPR. Hell of a lot of Bay Ronald in Grey Glory.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;7616515]
Can’t be, that’s a stallion. This is more likely the one:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/grey+glory5[/QUOTE]

Ooops! Thanks for the correction!

[grayarabpony]

Amiro Z, son of Amigo Toss: http://www.zangersheide.com/en/hengsten/AMIRO-Z-AMIGO-TOSS-XX-x-RAMIRO-Z

Xel Ha, 1.6m jumper: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1516008

http://showpark.com/?page=press&article_id=94

[Elles]

Not complete: http://www.webpedigrees.com/pedigree.php?nid=317623

Almost all F2:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10756945
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/459996

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10551023
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/321550

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=KATCHINA+MAIL&x=24&y=12
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/104429

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=UNO+DE+LAUBRY&x=33&y=13
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/175353

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=avenzio+3&x=25&y=12
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/436585

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10843346
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/321898

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/648691

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10838129
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/194425

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/496167

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/257324

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=STERREHOF'S+OPIUM&x=22&y=11
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/2225

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=BIJOU+VAN+DE+VIJFHEIDE&x=18&y=16
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/439142

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=JL'S+KOMPARSE&x=30&y=10
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/354384

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/254655

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/1601800

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=CASSIOPEIA+55&x=31&y=17
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/622062

http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/460499

[vineyridge]

I just filled in Paquerette’s pedigree on SHBD from Equineline. http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10217949

I did manage FINALLY to run down Paquerette’s 1983 foal by Lefty, Peregrino, in the Argentine Studbook. So he is a pure and registered TB–just not in Equine Line.

[Elles]

Well done Vineyridge!

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Well, as warmbloods with TB blood,we think a little TB blood doesn’t hurt the jumping, but not over 50%. And we have to admit that those holsteiners, who don’t have much TB blood but are bred for jumping (as opposed to being bred for both jumping and dressage as most WBs are), are pretty darn superior over the jumps over both other WBs and TBs. But it’s all relative. Some TBs are exceptional jumpers and some WBs are exceptional jumpers. Just follow european breeding in Germany and France and Belgium and the Netherlands.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Elles;7616341]
In warmblood breeding in Holland there are at the moment I think 3 TB stallions available. From my mind I can think of Roven xx, Hopalong Cassidy and Albaran xx. Because we only have one racetrack in the country with mostly trotting racing but also some TB racing there are very few TB’s in the country. Therefore there are also not many TB mares in the country.
Most Dutch seem to be scared to death of TB’s because they have hardly ever worked with a TB.[/QUOTE]

I think this explains an a lot about their attitude toward using thoroughbreds in their breeding program.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;7616944]
Well, as warmbloods with TB blood,we think a little TB blood doesn’t hurt the jumping, but not over 50%. And we have to admit that those holsteiners, who don’t have much TB blood but are bred for jumping (as opposed to being bred for both jumping and dressage as most WBs are), are pretty darn superior over the jumps over both other WBs and TBs. But it’s all relative. Some TBs are exceptional jumpers and some WBs are exceptional jumpers. Just follow european breeding in Germany and France and Belgium and the Netherlands.[/QUOTE]

Then how do you explain the successful show jumpers with over 50% blood?

Holsteiners have quite a bit of blood in their background, all the way back to the 1800s, and owe much of their success to TBs. They aren’t pretty darn superior to other warmbloods in jumping either. Have you looked at the overall stats for jumping over several decades, or even the last few years? Holsteiners dominated at one of the recent WEG, but not since. The most successful horses now are typically a mix from everywhere – old fashioned Dutch, Hanoverian, TB, Holsteiner, and Selle Francais.

[zipperfoot]

Can anyone provide information about the heights of jumps in showjumping at various Olympics? From what I could find on the Internet, the max height at Mexico City in 1968 (see the very cool video of Wm. Steinkraus and Snowbound) was 1.80 m. Now the max height is 1.60, if my information is correct. If this is so, the showjumpers of that time (mostly TB) were required to jump higher than the showjumpers of today (mostly warmbloods). Doesn’t support the argument that TBs “kill the jump.”

I’d love to see more information about the jump heights, if anybody knows where to find it.

[FairWeather]

Richard Jeffrey has collected nearly every show jumping course for all of the Olympics in the past 60 or so years–perhaps reach out to him?

[Scaramouch]

I really have nothing to contribute re: breeding for GP showjumping, but Bayhawk has intimated here and in another thread that TBs are becoming obsolete at the elite eventing levels and it simply is not accurate. TBs won Badminton in 2013, Burghley in 2011, and Rolex in 2012. You have to go back to Tamarillo (AA) in 2008 to find a Burghley winner who wasn’t out of a TB mare, and the majority of **** winners have one TB parent with more TBs close on the other half.

The current World and Olympic champion, Sam, is by a TB with a TB damsire.

[Elles]

http://www.equestrianandhorse.com/shows/olympics.html
Olympic Show Jumping History
• Show Jumping was included in the 1900 Olympic games in Paris, France with the courses smaller and as technical as they are today.
• Horses were required to carry a weight of 165 pounds.
• Only male cavalry officers were allowed to compete.
• In the 1912 Olympics in Stockholm the course included approximate 15 jumps some of which were jumped more than once.
o The height of the jumps was around 1.4 meters
o The width of the water jump was around 4 meters.
• At the 1924 Games in Antwerp there were 14 obstacles
o The height of the fences was 1.3 to 1.4 meters high.
o The water jump was 4 meters wide.
• The 1932 Olympics consisted of 20 jumping efforts with the height of the course increasing to between 1.4 and 1.6 meters high with the width of the water jump increasing to 5 meters wide.
• By the1952 Helsinki Games men and women civilians were allowed to compete.
• The show jumping height is now 1.6 meters with the width of the fences being a maximum of 2 meters or 2.2 meters for a triple bar. The water jump distance is now a maximum of 4.5 meters.
• The current Olympic format is held over 5 rounds to determine the team and individual medals. There are four riders in each team with the top three scores counting towards the total for each nation. Each riders score is taken and added to their individual score with only the top fifty individuals going forward to Round Three, which is where the team medals are decided. The individual medals are decided in the fifth and final round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_at_the_Summer_Olympics

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/bob-the-builder-embraces-olympic-show-jumping-challenge/article4459286
Above all, Ellis will avoid the type of obstacles used at the 1968 Mexico Olympics, with a round that featured six of the biggest jumps ever built for an Olympic competition. Some riders called it “terrifying.”
Only two horses negotiated that round cleanly. A Canadian team that included Jim Elder, Jim Day and Tom Gayford won the gold medal with 102.75 faults, while it’s much more common for the winning team to have about 20 faults. (Every time a horse lowers the height of a fence, they incur four faults. The fewer faults, the better.)
“I never saw fences that big,” said Palacios, speaking of Mexico. “And I never built fences that big.”
One of them required the horses to clear a huge oxer (a jump with two standards, requiring the horses to jump width as well as height) with a front rail that stood five feet, nine inches high and a back rail that was six feet high at the back – with a spread of seven feet, three inches.
Horses also had to clear a giant wall that was five feet, nine inches high – after coming off a turn.

http://www.horse-canada.com/horses-and-history/meet-stroller-four-legs-and-a-pair-of-wings/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_at_the_1968_Summer_Olympics

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/07/four-showjumping-masters-–-part-2-william-steinkraus/

http://broganrogantrevinoandhogan.wordpress.com/2013/07/06/the-tale-of-the-little-giant/

http://www.solarnavigator.net/sport/equestrian_show_jumping.htm

http://network4events.com/fileadmin/user_upload/870601_OlympicEncyclopedia_224_Equestrian.pdf

http://www.horse-canada.com/horses-and-history/mexico-olympics-1968-the-canadian-gold-standard/

[Elles]

Not all of the best female families are from Holstein:

XX: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/1598522 For example the following horses: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/496690 and http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/551034 and http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/198708

OX: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/633396

Unknown (?): http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/723416

Unknown (?): http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/84186

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;7617808]
I really have nothing to contribute re: breeding for GP showjumping, but Bayhawk has intimated here and in another thread that TBs are becoming obsolete at the elite eventing levels and it simply is not accurate. TBs won Badminton in 2013, Burghley in 2011, and Rolex in 2012. You have to go back to Tamarillo (AA) in 2008 to find a Burghley winner who wasn’t out of a TB mare, and the majority of **** winners have one TB parent with more TBs close on the other half.

The current World and Olympic champion, Sam, is by a TB with a TB damsire.[/QUOTE]

Don’t put words in my mouth…I never said TB’s were becoming obsolete in eventing. I said they haven’t won Olympic Gold in the last several Olympics.

The current Olympic Champion Sam that you list is not a TB…he is a Hanoverian…period.

[grayarabpony]

Bayhawk, you have intimated that pure TBs are becoming obsolete in eventing, not TB blood.

Sam’s pedigree: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/597343