Of course if it was only about breeding for the jump we would all be passionately breeding and competing mules (which some folks are indeed passionate about).
The present modern warmblood brings so many wonderful attributes to the table beyond just the jump: beauty, courage, willingness, heart and jump.
[QUOTE=Manni01;7615986]
This is even worse than a TB :). And he is Holsteiin approved…
And he is still Competing With 19 years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h65s8BA34UM&sns=em[/QUOTE]
Way worse! Shagyas!! Thanks Manni01, that was a great video. He doesn’t have many foals listed on horsetelex but it will be very interesting to see how they develop.
I am starting to wonder if the “JUMP” kills TB speed.
Most TBs are aimed at races on the flat. The ones that are not fast enough and show a talent for jumping are often relegated to steeplechasing. How many of the colts of this TB group allowed to remain as stallions? Are not most of them gelded? I do know that when TB males are sold to the general public as OTTB very few of the colts are ungelded.
The flat race TB breeders may have been unconsciously trying to breed out the TB “JUMP” because these horses do not win as much on the flat. It does not take many generations to get rid of a genetic trait if ALL the breeders are breeding away from it and none of the males with “JUMP” are allowed at stud because they slow down the speed necessary to win the flat races. If a mare has the “JUMP” she would not be winning the big races either, and if her get do not win that particular dam line either disappears or gets subsumed into either TB breeding for hunters or the general horse breeding in the USA.
Huaso’s dam Tremula HAD to have the “JUMP”, otherwise how in the world could Huaso jump over 8 feet? Not only did he jump over 8’, he cleared the fence twice. The first time he cleared it he had a belly rub (the fence stayed up) and I guess the Chileans wanted a clear record of a clear jump, so Huaso had to jump this absolutely enormous fence AGAIN, the same day, probably within the same hour. NO HORSE that I am aware of in the records has successfully jumped anything near this heighth twice in one day. But of course Tremula did not leave recorded daughters so that TB “JUMP” line was lost to history.
Actually, I don’t think jump necessarily kills speed. Jumpers have appeared from top running lines. Remember, Secretariat sired Quantum Leap, and Man o’ War was a very strong line for jumping. I can see your point and why should running be correlated with jumping, but jumpers come from runners anyway. Hand in Glove was bred to race, like so many GP TB jumpers, and raced as a two-year-old, and yet competed as a show jumper and sired several. http://futuresporthorses.co.uk/stallions/hand-in-glove-xx/
It seems to me that ever since Secretariat, and maybe before that, American breeders are going for sprinters that can stay. (Can anyone speak to this?) Still, there are plenty of strong sporthorse and jumping types out there.
Jumps racing is bigger in Ireland than flat racing. The Irish, the French, and the Brits do breed for jumps racing. But the TB lines that they use are found in almost all European TBs and they haven’t been loath to use American lines as well.
Gem Twist http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10207482
Idle Dice http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10200082
Jet Run http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10203608
Nanticoke http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Nanticoke&x=32&y=8
Touch of Class http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213274
Tashiling http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10210156
Sandsablaze http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10485683
Quantum Leap http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213154
Simba Run http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Simba+run&x=-834&y=-27
The Jones Boy http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10200951
Sympatico http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486011
You can see top racehorses close up in many of these pedigrees, and look at patterns and similarities.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7615852]
Jaguar mail competed in the 2008 Games. That was 6 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Several years ago. I didn’t say decades like most of your examples. My point is that they are so rarely seen at the top. How many competed in Hong Kong? How many in London? How many were TBs or F1s? I have repeatedly agreed they are out there… as a tiny minority. They may be outstanding, but they are the exceptions.
You seem to be disagreeing with me while your examples prove my point.
Are you being obtuse? Six years is nothing, and in fact, his offspring are competing now. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/393299 and http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/98115 How can you expect TBs to be at the top when the people breeding for the top don’t have very many TBs in their countries? (And probably eat them when they’re done racing.) You’re confusing correlation with causation. Many of my earlier examples were not decades old either. I get really tired of people who take what I write out of context and twist and falsify it.
I hate to break it to you but you have only a small chance of breeding a top show jumper with your warmblood mare. Can she jump 1.6m courses? Even if she COULD, even horses like that only throw a small percentage of top jumpers themselves. There are so many strong jumping lines in TBs that if you have a TB mare that can jump very well, your chances of getting a good jumper from her are probably as good as getting one from a warmblood mare.
MY POINT is that if American breeders used the talent that is available to them (although the catch is they’d have to look for it) and actually bred very many jumpers in a systematic fashion, there would be a lot of TBs and F1s at the top. But frankly, it doesn’t appear Americans aren’t going to breed many top jumpers no matter what they use. Not that many people are breeding for the jumper market, and if this board is any indication those that do swallow the warmblood marketing to the point that they are brainwashed. There is no doubting the talent and success of warmbloods, but the dissing of TBs… I don’t get it.
Ugh. Posts like yours always ruin the tone of threads like these. You think you are being logical but you are not.
I’m not a breeder but as a rider and spectator I love the sensitivity of TBs and I think horses with a lot of blood are just a lot more fun to watch.
[QUOTE=Manni01;7615986]
This is even worse than a TB :). And he is Holsteiin approved…
And he is still Competing With 19 years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h65s8BA34UM&sns=em[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting that. So fun to watch!
Thomas Edison: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thomas+edison. No doubt you’ll consider him ancient history too.
There’s a TB currently competing ridden by Hillary Simpson out of Southern Pines called Arkansas. I saw him at the Duke Children’s Classic. http://hillarysimpson.com/newspress/
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7616244]
Are you being obtuse? Six years is nothing. How can you expect TBs to be at the top when the people breeding for the top don’t have TB very many in their countries? You’re confusing correlation with causation. Many of my earlier examples were not decades old either. I get really tired of people who take what I write out of context and twisting and falsifying it.
I hate to break it to you but you have only a small chance of breeding a top show jumper with your warmblood mare. Can she jump 1.6m courses? Even if she COULD, even horses like that only throw a small percentage of top jumpers themselves. There are so many strong jumping lines in TBs that if you have a TB mare that can jump very well, your chances of getting a good jumper from her are probably as good as getting one from a warmblood mare.
MY POINT is that if American breeders used the talent that is available to them (although the catch is they’d have to look for it) and actually bred very many jumpers in a systematic fashion, there would be a lot of TBs and F1s at the top. But frankly, it doesn’t appear Americans aren’t going to breed many top jumpers no matter what they use. Not that many people are breeding for the jumper market, and they swallow the warmblood marketing to the point that they are brainwashed.[/QUOTE]
Holstein has one of the highest percentages of breeding 1.60m horses and I read somewhere recently that about 0.2% of their foals make it to that level. The odds of me breeding a 1.60m horse are slim to none with any of my mares, including the TB. :lol:
“I am starting to wonder if the “JUMP” kills TB speed.”
I was thinking the other way–that is, speed and quickness tends to flatten out the jump and it is hard to have that balance of speed and quickness combined with spring to jump the 1.6m courses, but you still need both – or you also could not jump across those huge oxers–but would be stuck which you still see in some of the more old fashion power horses that dwell over the fence and look like they will not get across them.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7616274]
Holstein has one of the highest percentages of breeding 1.60m horses and I read somewhere recently that about 0.2% of their foals make it to that level. The odds of me breeding a 1.60m horse are slim to none with any of my mares, including the TB. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Exactly. So what is your point again? That TB aren’t at the top because they are not being used? I guess we will have to disagree on the whys.
The Chapot’s have the knowledge and ability to get their youngsters as far as they are capable of. Watching how their breeding program with Gemini turns out will be interesting.
Ready Teddy’s sire, Brilliant Invader:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/354819
According to horse telex he sired 6 1.6m jumpers, in addition to Ready Teddy, himself a spectacularly talented jumper. (I saw him in Atlanta, and he was just… WOW. So much scope.)
Check out Flower Power’s get too: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/648690
And Deebee Lady: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1482300
In warmblood breeding in Holland there are at the moment I think 3 TB stallions available. From my mind I can think of Roven xx, Hopalong Cassidy and Albaran xx. Because we only have one racetrack in the country with mostly trotting racing but also some TB racing there are very few TB’s in the country. Therefore there are also not many TB mares in the country.
Most Dutch seem to be scared to death of TB’s because they have hardly ever worked with a TB.
Roven:
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/6916
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/6916
Hopalong Cassidy: http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/396184
Roven’s Lefty was also the sire of Yavari, who had a high level show jumping career in Canada back in the day. He was truly a beautiful horse.
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10197859. Lefty is an Argentine line to look for, but he has exclusively US lines close up.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/131972
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLbil_S6bhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5qrzRwzbFI
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10742231
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/amaryllis29
Lefty:
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?42278-Aus-reinem-Vollblutstamm-gezogen-und-trotzdem-erfolgreich-!!!&p=798481&viewfull=1
Peregrino la Silla xx , Amigo Toss xx
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