TB kills the jump?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7615279]
Your entire evidence.

Not only logical but I can read for comprehension and not take things out of context. The Trak was bred for a Calvary mount and that was the intention of it’s creator. It is not causation if they used some of the mares outside the stud farm for working. That is not the Royal Stud farm, which keep it’s own stock separate. But it is an added value that the relatives of the Trak mares were that versatile.[/QUOTE]

Yes, my entire point is evidence against your claim that Traks were never bred for carriage or farm work, when clearly they were. Anyone who has any reading comprehension or logic can see that. Those tests I quoted were developed between the World Wars, as I have already stated.

I’d suggest you buy and read the book but I doubt that would have little effect on you. You are clinging to this notion that warmbloods in general and Traks in general were never bred for pulling, despite evidence to the contrary. It’s crazy.

Are you going to keep on with this nonsense? If so you can keep on by yourself.

[vineyridge]

Just for information on FF5, Bonne Cause was from that mare line. She was the dam of Bonne Nuit and double granddam of New Twist. It’s also the FF of the superlative mare line from Goody Two Shoes, which means Drumtop–dam of Drums of Time, as well as Nureyev and Thatch and Thatching and Sadler’s Wells; the German TB sire Kronenkranich (used in WB breeding), and the great German mare line from Waldrun (dams of many TB stallions used in WB breeding); Pleasant Colony comes from an Argentine branch of this family; Hoist the Flag is FF5, and Intentionally, Djebel and White Eagle come from yet another branch. This FF is VERY strong in German TB breeding.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7615279]
Your entire evidence.

Not only logical but I can read for comprehension and not take things out of context. The Trak was bred for a Calvary mount and that was the intention of it’s creator. It is not causation if they used some of the mares outside the stud farm for working. That is not the Royal Stud farm, which keep it’s own stock separate. But it is an added value that the relatives of the Trak mares were that versatile.[/QUOTE]

Yes, evidence against your claim that Traks were never bred for carriage or farm work, when clearly they were. Those tests I quoted were developed between the World Wars, as I have already stated in post 291.

I’d suggest you buy and read the book but I doubt that would have little effect on you. You are clinging to this notion that warmbloods in general and Traks in general were never bred for pulling, despite evidence to the contrary. It’s crazy.

Are you going to keep on with this nonsense? If so you can keep on by yourself.

[Foxtrot_s]

Keep it civil, folks. It is an interesting thread without the jabs.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7615324]
Just for information on FF5, Bonne Cause was from that mare line. She was the dam of Bonne Nuit and double granddam of New Twist. It’s also the FF of the superlative mare line from Goody Two Shoes, which means Drumtop–dam of Drums of Time, as well as Nureyev and Thatch and Thatching and Sadler’s Wells; the German TB sire Kronenkranich (used in WB breeding), and the great German mare line from Waldrun (dams of many TB stallions used in WB breeding); Pleasant Colony comes from an Argentine branch of this family; Hoist the Flag is FF5, and Intentionally, Djebel and White Eagle come from yet another branch. This FF is VERY strong in German TB breeding.[/QUOTE]

And Lorenzaccio.
http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=reverse&index=simon:s_shoes&gens=5
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/444414

[tuckawayfarm]

@grayarabpony;7615181

The links I’ve clicked on traced to TB tail female or had TBs relatively close up. But this possibly makes her a troll?

I must have missed the links of the F1 offspring. It’s been a long busy weekend, but I don’t even recall any F2s. Please share the ones you found in her list that are competing over today’s courses.

When you start a thread asking about the idea that you will lose jump when breeding to TBs, and several breeders explain that yes, the F1s tend to need to be bred back to WBs before the offspring are found competing at the International level (the rare exception will always exist). Then you proceed to argue the point by listing many International competitors, none of who are F1s currently competing…thus providing proof that the breeder’s are correct… Yep, I start to wonder if you are a troll.

I happen to be one of the few jumper breeders on this board that use a TB damline, so I am not in any way discrediting TBs in the jumper ring. My TB did quite well over her career, although not at the Intl level. But most breeders are going to follow the statistics and you simply can’t argue that statistically, F1s are extremely rare at the upper levels.

There are exceptions from many breeds. Heck, I owned a 15.2hh QH who jumped GP and was a top A/O horse against TBs and WBs. He was a little freak and a blast to watch, but I wouldn’t try to breed for that.

Good breeding practice requires consistency, the odds are against even the best bred foal from reaching the top. Why make them worse?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7615606]
I must have missed the links of the F1 offspring. It’s been a long busy weekend, but I don’t even recall any F2s. Please share the ones you found in her list that are competing over today’s courses.

When you start a thread asking about the idea that you will lose jump when breeding to TBs, and several breeders explain that yes, the F1s tend to need to be bred back to WBs before the offspring are found competing at the International level (the rare exception will always exist). Then you proceed to argue the point by listing many International competitors, none of who are F1s currently competing…thus providing proof that the breeder’s are correct… Yep, I start to wonder if you are a troll.

I happen to be one of the few jumper breeders on this board that use a TB damline, so I am not in any way discrediting TBs in the jumper ring. My TB did quite well over her career, although not at the Intl level. But most breeders are going to follow the statistics and you simply can’t argue that statistically, F1s are extremely rare at the upper levels.

There are exceptions from many breeds. Heck, I owned a 15.2hh QH who jumped GP and was a top A/O horse against TBs and WBs. He was a little freak and a blast to watch, but I wouldn’t try to breed for that.

Good breeding practice requires consistency, the odds are against even the best bred foal from reaching the top. Why make them worse?[/QUOTE]

You could use that same argument for why Americans shouldn’t bother to breed for jumping – and yes, I do hope that American breeders succeed.

Sorry, but I don’t buy anything just because someone says it on this board. Most of the time the logic is flawed.

I do remember seeing F2 in some of Elle’s posts. Heck, Lisacalgot, 2002 WEG, had a TB dam sire: http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/313479, although I posted that one.

You can think Elles is a troll if you want, but that’s highly uncharitable and a sadly too often a reaction on COTH. There’s a 2006 SF with a TB as a dam in her very first post on this thread. http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/584980 There’s a 1.6m jumper with a TB as a sire in her second post. http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/139448

Post 236 references relatives of Alligator Fontaine:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/38175

Alligator Fontaine: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/82495

She refers a horse that traces tail female xx in post 327: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/745875?levels=9.

Her posts reference horses such as those. You should click links before declaring someone a troll.

More examples of top show jumpers with a lot of blood, and up close. Authentic, anyone? http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/12688. Butterfly Flip: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/12688But Someone will just call these horses an “exception”, rather than acknowledging that the horse is a top show jumper with TB blood up close.

[Elles]

If the TB can be considered a jump killer, would it not still kill the jump when found as a grandparent or being responsible for 50% or more of a pedigree, being the female family tap root or being the sire of a horse?
But we keep going around in circles…
Because when there is only 30% of warmblood in a pedigree, the warmblood still gets all the credit, when there is a warmblood damline, the warmblood gets all the credit, when there is a warmblood sire, the sire gets all the credit, etc.
One can not breed a very good race horse by using a mediocre stallion an a very good mare, one can not breed a very good sporthorse by using a mediocre stallion on a good mare. A good stallion can not produce exceptional offspring by using a mediocre mare. All the horses in the pedigree have to be good horses. And still full brothers, full sisters, etc. can be quite different.
I started this topic by mentioning a stallion out of a xx female family. But of course he will be deemed a one off or not good enough (he is 8 years old) or what else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRCP2lB6tg
If the TB stallion has so little influence how come the heavy mares of the past could be made lighter by the use of TB stallions?

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7615653]
You could use that same argument for why Americans shouldn’t bother to breed for jumping – and yes, I do hope that American breeders succeed.

Sorry, but I don’t buy anything just because someone says it on this board. Most of the time the logic is flawed.

I do remember seeing F2 in some of Elle’s posts. Heck, Lisacalgot, 2002 WEG, had a TB dam sire: http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/313479, although I posted that one.

You can think Elles is a troll if you want, but that’s highly uncharitable and a sadly too often a reaction on COTH. There’s a 2006 SF with a TB as a dam in her very first post on this thread. http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/584980 There’s a 1.6m jumper with a TB as a sire in her second post. http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/139448

Post 236 references relatives of Alligator Fontaine:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/38175

Alligator Fontaine: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/82495

She refers a horse that traces tail female xx in post 327: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/745875?levels=9.

Her posts reference horses such as those. You should click links before declaring someone a troll.[/QUOTE]

That is my point. The only F1 on your list currently competing is the stallion from her original post. He has no results above 1.45m and most of his results aren’t even at that level. A long way from the top.

The rest are either dead, long retired, or have the TB further back in their pedigrees.

As I have stated ad nauseum… I think there is a place for the TB in modern jumper breeding. I disagree with Bayhawk that the TB’s contribution to jumping is on the way out. But even in my own program, the F2s are superior to the F1s, so I do agree that the best use of blood is thinking in generations.

Perhaps with Gemini, the Chapot’s will help American breeders bring back some of our strongest TB jumper lines, but as things stand currently, TBs and F1s at the Intl level are the exception. I will be thrilled if that changes in the future.

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=Elles;7615706]
If the TB can be considered a jump killer, would it not still kill the jump when found as a grandparent or being responsible for 50% or more of a pedigree, being the female family tap root or being the sire of a horse?
But we keep going around in circles…
Because when there is only 30% of warmblood in a pedigree, the warmblood still gets all the credit, when there is a warmblood damline, the warmblood gets all the credit, when there is a warmblood sire, the sire gets all the credit, etc.
One can not breed a very good race horse by using a mediocre stallion an a very good mare, one can not breed a very good sporthorse by using a mediocre stallion on a good mare. A good stallion can not produce exceptional offspring by using a mediocre mare. All the horses in the pedigree have to be good horses. And still full brothers, full sisters, etc. can be quite different.
I started this topic by mentioning a stallion out of a xx female family. But of course he will be deemed a one off or not good enough or what else.[/QUOTE]

I think it would help if the phrase “jump killer” wasn’t used. Obviously the TBs in these pedigrees are not actually killing the jump. I would only use that term regarding certain horses whose offspring out of jumping mares can barely haul themselves over an average vertical. But I do see that often (never always) there is some loss of power along with the addition of stamina and agility. There will always be exceptions.

There are no upper level jumpers with 0% blood, so anyone denying the need for it is clueless, but then I don’t know of anyone denying the value of blood in a jumper pedigree. The discussion is about placement, not existence.

[grayarabpony]

Butterfly Flip was F1 and she didn’t jump that long ago. She is not “long since retired.” She was born in 1991 and had her greatest successes in 2001-2003. You complained about not even seeing F2s so I also provided those examples.

You have been unfair and unpleasant to Elles.

How many American breds are currently internationally ranked in show jumping at the 1.6m level?

[vineyridge]

No, the discussion is about whether TB blood kills the jump. The simple fact is that except for the French very little TB blood has been available to continental Europeans, and in the TB racing nations, good TBs are more valuable in racing and race breeding than in sport disciplines.

Butterfly Flip is an F1, in case you hadn’t noticed. If you think she is long retired, our senses of modern/current is very different.

Jaguar Mail is an F1 and he went to the Hong Kong Olympics.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7615804]
No, the discussion is about whether TB blood kills the jump. The simple fact is that except for the French very little TB blood has been available to continental Europeans, and in the TB racing nations, good TBs are more valuable in racing and race breeding than in sport disciplines.

Butterfly Flip is an F1, in case you hadn’t noticed. If you think she is long retired, our senses of modern/current is very different.

Jaguar Mail is an F1 and he went to the Hong Kong Olympics.[/QUOTE]

According to horse telex Hand in Glove (sire of Jaguar Mail) sired 7 1.6m jumpers total. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/38168

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7615730]
That is my point. The only F1 on your list currently competing is the stallion from her original post. He has no results above 1.45m and most of his results aren’t even at that level. A long way from the top.

The rest are either dead, long retired, or have the TB further back in their pedigrees.

As I have stated ad nauseum… I think there is a place for the TB in modern jumper breeding. I disagree with Bayhawk that the TB’s contribution to jumping is on the way out. But even in my own program, the F2s are superior to the F1s, so I do agree that the best use of blood is thinking in generations.

Perhaps with Gemini, the Chapot’s will help American breeders bring back some of our strongest TB jumper lines, but as things stand currently, TBs and F1s at the Intl level are the exception. I will be thrilled if that changes in the future.[/QUOTE]

You can dis-agree with me tuckaway…that’s your right , but let me give you some stats to back up my statement that TB’s are on their way out.

I can’t find my 2013 stats right now but I do have 2012 in front of me. There were 3,047 foals born in Holstein in 2012 but with only 31 foals born to TB Stallions.

Math off the top of my head reads less than 1% of foals born are sired by TB Stallions in Holstein. In my book…that’s proof they are and have been on the way out.

They regularly kill the jump and movement…hence why the breeders shy away from using them . One can easily line breed to TB Stallions to keep the blood % up instead of using them directly.

[tuckawayfarm]

It was certainly not my intention to be unkind to Elles. I apologize if she thinks that to be true.

Thanks for mentioning Butterfly Flip! One of my absolute favs! I confess I must have missed that link among the OP’s list. But I honestly thought she was retired several years ago.

The fact that her greatest success was a decade ago is the point I am trying to make. If I want to list names of Intl jumpers with blood 3-4 generations back, I could come up with dozens who competed last week. When looking for purebred TBs or F1s, you need to go back years. They are the exception. That’s not a slam, it’s useful information for breeders who want to add blood. Better to think in generations.

That is what I am telling the OP. Yes, I use a TB mare, but I do so knowing the odds are very much against me and that if she wants to use a TB, she should think about that, especially if she is breeding for resale. I’m not saying our chances of success in an F1 are impossible, but they are improbable.

Jaguar Mail is another outstanding F1 (and one I’d love to use), but once again… several years ago. His sire, Hand in Glove, is legendary.

[grayarabpony]

Jaguar mail competed in the 2008 Games. That was 6 years ago.

[Elles]

During this showjumping competition a mare by the TB stallion Favoritas xx was placed third, before the horse Willink by Twister.
http://www.dehoefslag.nl/laatste-nieuws/springen/roosendaal-concours-van-thijssen.html
www.dengoubergh.nl/goubergh/07_RES.pdf
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/733367
http://www.horses.nl/sport/springen-sport/springen-algemeen/leon-thijssen-oppermachtig-grote-tour/

Okay, it was “only” over 1.45 m. fences yes…

And there is this horse: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/26847
But yes it is not out of a xx mare or mare line. On the other hand, it has 70.70 % OX/XX.

Esta by Albaran xx, 75 points for the IBOP test.
http://3xl57912lrz22xfysm4fg78whew.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2014-06-04-uitslag-IBOP-springen-Nistelrode.pdf
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/453391 64.84 % OX/XX.

[SEPowell]

Thank you for the direction and tone this discussion is taking.

I’m wondering two things which may or may not be relevant to your thinking but is pertinent to something I’ve been thinking about independent of this thread. Can you tell the number of thoroughbred stallions used in sport horse breeding and if possible the number of thoroughbred mares used? I’d also like to know who they are. Does anyone have this information at hand?

[Manni01]

This is even worse than a TB :). And he is Holsteiin approved…
And he is still Competing With 19 years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h65s8BA34UM&sns=em

[SEPowell]

And just for fun, here’s steeplechase jockey Willie McCarthy jumping Dutch Holstein mare Bella

http://thisishorseracing.com/news/index.php/this-is-horse-racing/2295-high-flyer-jump-jockey-mccarthy-wins-bareback-competition