[QUOTE=can’t re-;7613626]
I was fortunate to own this Grand Prix thoroughbred mare: http://sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10641667&time=1402233140 She won World Cup classes and many Grand Prixs and 6 bar classes. I would not consider her a jump killer. It was a sad day when I lost her in foal to Indoctro.[/QUOTE]
You wouldn’t know if she was a jump killer until you bred with her and her daughters .
Sorry for your loss of such a rare animal.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7612983]
How do you know Warthburg could jump a house? Was she ever tried? Did you see her? Is there video?
I’ve looked, using horsetelex and she seems to have had only six foals, all by Ladykiller xx, so what makes you think the jump genes came only through her? Her dam only seems to have had two foals, both daughters, and the other mare (Jenni) had a TB sire and has been a good line for jumpers. Jenni’s daughter, Florina, produced a couple of 1.60 meter horses, as did her daughter but her sire was also a TB. Jenni’s daughter Avion was a 1.60 meter horse but she didn’t reproduce herself. Warthburg’s granddam also only had two foals, and the other daughter doesn’t seem to have produced anything higher than a 1.4 meter jumper, but quite few dressage horses come through the granddam’s other daughter. It looks as if that line has ended up in Holland.
One could just as easily say that none of those mares’ produce could jump 1.6 meters unless the mare was bred to or from a TB.
I do recognize that horsetelex may not have complete foal crops for Warthburg, her dam, her half sister, and her granddam’s other female descendants.
What makes you believe Warthburg could jump a house?[/QUOTE]
When you talk with the breeder , see their old photos and listen to the stories then you know how Warthburg could jump your house.
See , this is why I challenge you Viney…you only have knowledge you read in books or on line. There comes a point where you MUST have more Viney.
At this current moment , your knowledge is just pedigree reading and being a copy and paster from internet sites.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7612512]
See , this is where you need to learn more. It is known all over breeding that the mare passes the jump gene to the foal.
From “Men in Black”:
“Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.”
One of my favorite quotes–just couldn’t resist…
If the Germans have such good mares that they could cross with a camel to get a good sporthorse, why are they so worried about the competition from other countries?
One of the reasons many of NA’s Wb’s are not up to snuff was the use of Tb mares as the beginning of breeding programs. Most did not pass along great talent. Only when NA started importing mares did our breeding programs get better overall. If the Tb was not a jump killer, then why did the best jumper breeders in NA import mares? Why didn’t we see more of these Tb’s mares offspring at the top of the sport?
I really don’t think Germany was worried about our Tb influenced stock. They might be more worried that we are buying their mares and breeding them over here.
I don’t believe all Tb’s are jump killers but the vast majority bred in NA are going to be.
You see 1/4 Tb up front in pedigree’s doing very well as the right Tb can add excellent traits but I think you need to breed back Wb to return the jump to the UL’s.
There is a big difference between a horse that can jump and a horse that you should use for breeding jumpers. Hickstead was a legend but he has not proven himself as a sire yet and he may not, although I am still cheering for his offspring. Not every SJ stallion is a good breeding stallion so the examples of Tb’s that can jump do not win the debate as to their present day value as breeding stock for UL horses.
BTW, many of the Tb stallions that were famous for jumping, did not make it as race horses. So the excuse that all the good Tb jumpers are the best racers, has not been historical how it went.
If as much effort had been put into finding the jumping lines in TB and selectively breeding for them, then this might be a different argument.
Blood on top, as they say, and the Irish are not so tacky in the showjumping world with their heavy mares. The ISH is predominantly TB/ID.
Bayhawk said:
“You wouldn’t know if she was a jump killer until you bred with her and her daughters .”
This, exactly, is why Holstein is ahead in breeding- they have had the mare lines for years, they KNOW what the line can and should produce. I would say the same for a dressage line. In Europe, they have the knowledge and experience with lines from way, way back.
And, I would posit if Germans are worried about competition from other countries, take a look at what stoicfish had to say:
“I really don’t think Germany was worried about our Tb influenced stock. They might be more worried that we are buying their mares and breeding them over here.”
I said in an earlier post that in this country, the TB mare is valued for black type- not her physical type per se. Can the mare produce black type only crossed on one stallion or several? Is black type relative to any other trait than success at the track?
We’d have to be generations down the road with TB sport mares to have the foundation that has existed in Europe for a very, very long time. Not new news. And as I’ve said earlier, that F1 cross using a TB mare can come up with some surprises. Because, I’d speculate, most TB racing mares are bred for speed or stamina, with some consideration being given to type. The TB mare base in this country isn’t generally consistent for sport horse traits- just those that win at the track. The time to start a TB sport horse line or lines was probably back in the very early 1900’s, to have the consistency that the WB has today.
Anyone can cite an individual- but consistency is what’s important.
I’d still like to know if WB breeders today think that without an occasional outcross, the WB reverts back to heavier form?
There are TB colts available for little money, many of which are bred to be good sport and jumping horses. Usually you need connections to get them but they exist, sometimes high priced yearlings that didn’t pan out etc. The blood is there but it’s so tough to stand a stallion, much less a TB, that people just don’t bother. Remember, you’d need to acquire a colt and re-school him and get him a performance record of some sort. You might also want to breed him (either live or AI for non TB registered) to your own mares and see what he puts into his foals. If the foals are decent, you have a starting point but then you have to manage the babies and get them exposure at breeding classes, which are mainly centered in the Mid Atlantic. Meanwhile you are still making Dad’s reputation as a sport horse in a given field. It adds up quickly. Your horse might be winning and people asking about him only to have people tell them not to breed to a TB. It’s tough to make any stallion but TB’s more so.
Most of the listings on CANTER and many of the rehoming groups are geldings. With good reason, many geld them or offer subsidies for gelding.
I remember two things from my mare’s inspection for Oldenburg N/A, although she is actually Holsteiner/TB, but there were no inspections for that up here.
The inspector said: the breeding public did not have access to NA’s best mares because they were too expensive in the TB breeding farms in places like Ky. And secondly, that they needed the bone of the WB because
breeders wanted to have the horses going young in order to sell them early.
That’s what he said in our lecture.
And, BTW, she has all the TB Holsteiners in her pedigree, plus some.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7613672]
You wouldn’t know if she was a jump killer until you bred with her and her daughters .
Sorry for your loss of such a rare animal.[/QUOTE]
Thank you Bayhawk. I have bred the mare and her daughter. I have also been in touch with many people in Australia, including the chef d’equip, regarding this mare, her pedigree and relatives also in sport.
[QUOTE=Mozart;7610422]
stoicfish you are a valiant defender of logic. Give up my friend. Go pat your horses. OP: you just go ahead and tell those fellow KWPN breeders they don’t know what they are talking about, have no idea how to breed a jumper and go find a nice TB to breed your mare to okay?? :yes:[/QUOTE]
A valiant defender of logic? Is this a joke? This is the same poster who swore up and down that warmbloods were never bred to be carriage or farm horses, they were just used for those purposes. See transcripts of inspection tests posted in this thread to contradict stoicfish’s assertions.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7609533]
Starting to wonder if this is a troll…
None of the horses in your link are TBs 
No one is arguing that the TB didn’t play a huge roll in the development of the modern showjumper. Even those who don’t think the addition of more TB blood is needed have stated how important those TB sires have been in Holstein and elsewhere.
The current debate regarding the TB jumper at the upper levels is whether the purebred is still a force there, do we need to continue to infuse new blood into WB pedigrees, or have WBs reached the point where they no longer need additional blood.
Personally, I think there will always be an occasional TB competing at the top whether bred for it or not. I also believe it’s going to be important to keep adding blood every few generations. For those that disagree, it is going to be very important to keep the existing TB bloodlines going or risk reverting to a heavier horse, lacking stamina and agility. So no matter where you stand, no one wants to “breed out” the Ladykiller, Rantzau, Orange Peel, etc.[/QUOTE]
The links I’ve clicked on traced to TB tail female or had TBs relatively close up. But this possibly makes her a troll? Are you serious?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7609912]
Courses have been changing since the 1960s, when the French started doing it to favor their SFs.
I still would like to see “history classes” where old jumping courses are used to see if the results would change.[/QUOTE]
Viney those classes did not go against TB type horses. They were against horses that could just jump high, not horses that have scope.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7612512]
See , this is where you need to learn more. It is known all over breeding that the mare passes the jump gene to the foal.
The only myth is that the TB horse is still somehow relevant in sporthorse breeding.[/QUOTE]
Then how do you explain the TB GP jumpers? You can’t just claim they were freaks. Gem Twist’s sire was also a top show jumper. Those lines have died out because they were not used extensively in breeding. How do you explain Butterfly Flip? Or Plot Blue?
With all this talk about the importance of mare lines for the jumping ability I decided to look up Huaso’s pedigree (the horse who jumped over 8 feet.) Unfortunately his dam, Tremula, had no other get listed, and I had to go back through Vichadora, Yavi, and finally with View I got to a mare that had other daughters. I have no idea if these other daughters of View made it into modern TB breeding. The root mare was “Mare Line #5” and way back in the pedigree there are repeated Herod influences through sire lines (yes, among all the others.)
Modern US TBs are not the same type of TB that was bred when the TBs were doing these world jumping records. Face it, the only way to make LOTS of money with TBs is through racing, jumping classes do not have the purses of many TB races. If the TB mare lines with JUMP did not produce winning race horses the lines were allowed to die out. I bet you that Huaso’s dam Tremula had “the jump” and passed it on to her son Huaso. Too bad she had no daughters listed.
[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7614715]
Bayhawk said:
“You wouldn’t know if she was a jump killer until you bred with her and her daughters .”
This, exactly, is why Holstein is ahead in breeding- they have had the mare lines for years, they KNOW what the line can and should produce. I would say the same for a dressage line. In Europe, they have the knowledge and experience with lines from way, way back.
And, I would posit if Germans are worried about competition from other countries, take a look at what stoicfish had to say:
“I really don’t think Germany was worried about our Tb influenced stock. They might be more worried that we are buying their mares and breeding them over here.”
I said in an earlier post that in this country, the TB mare is valued for black type- not her physical type per se. Can the mare produce black type only crossed on one stallion or several? Is black type relative to any other trait than success at the track?
We’d have to be generations down the road with TB sport mares to have the foundation that has existed in Europe for a very, very long time. Not new news. And as I’ve said earlier, that F1 cross using a TB mare can come up with some surprises. Because, I’d speculate, most TB racing mares are bred for speed or stamina, with some consideration being given to type. The TB mare base in this country isn’t generally consistent for sport horse traits- just those that win at the track. The time to start a TB sport horse line or lines was probably back in the very early 1900’s, to have the consistency that the WB has today.
Anyone can cite an individual- but consistency is what’s important.
I’d still like to know if WB breeders today think that without an occasional outcross, the WB reverts back to heavier form?[/QUOTE]
Logical fallacy. We haven’t been using TBs to breed jumpers, so it’s crazy to accuse them of throwing inconsistent jumpers. Besides, your average athletic TB can jump as well as your average WB.
And as far as what stoicfish says, the Europeans can’t be THAT worried about selling us their less than top mares. They are keeping the best breeding stock for themselves, and while an occasional “missed” mare could slip through (just look at the top stallions who were dissed in their initial inspections), the US isn’t exactly burning up the world with its jumper breeding. Why are Americans bothering to breed for jumping, one could argue.
There is so much crazy in this thread it’s hard to keep track of it all.
[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7614715]
Bayhawk said:
“You wouldn’t know if she was a jump killer until you bred with her and her daughters .”
This, exactly, is why Holstein is ahead in breeding- they have had the mare lines for years, they KNOW what the line can and should produce. I would say the same for a dressage line. In Europe, they have the knowledge and experience with lines from way, way back.
And, I would posit if Germans are worried about competition from other countries, take a look at what stoicfish had to say:
“I really don’t think Germany was worried about our Tb influenced stock. They might be more worried that we are buying their mares and breeding them over here.”
I said in an earlier post that in this country, the TB mare is valued for black type- not her physical type per se. Can the mare produce black type only crossed on one stallion or several? Is black type relative to any other trait than success at the track?
We’d have to be generations down the road with TB sport mares to have the foundation that has existed in Europe for a very, very long time. Not new news. And as I’ve said earlier, that F1 cross using a TB mare can come up with some surprises. Because, I’d speculate, most TB racing mares are bred for speed or stamina, with some consideration being given to type. The TB mare base in this country isn’t generally consistent for sport horse traits- just those that win at the track. The time to start a TB sport horse line or lines was probably back in the very early 1900’s, to have the consistency that the WB has today.
Anyone can cite an individual- but consistency is what’s important.
I’d still like to know if WB breeders today think that without an occasional outcross, the WB reverts back to heavier form?[/QUOTE]
One could argue, why are Americans breeding for jumpers at all? The Europeans aren’t going to sell their best mares, except by accident, and even so the US isn’t exactly burning up the jumper world with its homebreds.
Galoubet’s dam was a trotter, who could jump. According to you, breeding her would have been a waste of time.
The modern Holsteiner has just been crafted in the last few decades. In the 2000s it was still possible to see long backed short legged Holsteiners who jumped upside down. I saw some myself, at the Duke Children’s Classic. They jumped well but they weren’t the typey horses with bascule that you see now. And yes, breeders in Holstein are still looking for TB stallions. http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/11/24/do-we-still-need-thoroughbred-blood-breed-performance-horses
http://www.morningside-stud.com/gpage16.html. Dr. Thomas Nissen: “TN: We are looking for good thoroughbred stallions all the time.”
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7609533]
Starting to wonder if this is a troll…
None of the horses in your link are TBs
No one is arguing that the TB didn’t play a huge roll in the development of the modern showjumper. Even those who don’t think the addition of more TB blood is needed have stated how important those TB sires have been in Holstein and elsewhere.
The current debate regarding the TB jumper at the upper levels is whether the purebred is still a force there, do we need to continue to infuse new blood into WB pedigrees, or have WBs reached the point where they no longer need additional blood.
Personally, I think there will always be an occasional TB competing at the top whether bred for it or not. I also believe it’s going to be important to keep adding blood every few generations. For those that disagree, it is going to be very important to keep the existing TB bloodlines going or risk reverting to a heavier horse, lacking stamina and agility. So no matter where you stand, no one wants to “breed out” the Ladykiller, Rantzau, Orange Peel, etc.[/QUOTE]
The links I’ve clicked on traced to TB tail female or had TBs relatively close up. But this possibly makes her a troll?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7609912]Courses have been changing since the 1960s, when the French started doing it to favor their SFs.
I still would like to see “history classes” where old jumping courses are used to see if the results would change.[/QUOTE]
Viney those classes did not go against TB type horses. They were against horses that could just jump high, not horses that have scope. It’d be interesting to compare Olympic and WC courses of the 80s with today’s courses, with specs.
A valiant defender of logic? This is the same poster who swore up and down that warmbloods were never bred to be carriage or farm horses, they were just used for those purposes. See transcripts of inspection tests posted in this thread to contradict stoicfish’s assertions.
Your entire evidence.
OK, then read these quotes from The International Warmblood Horse:
"In Fritz Schilke’s Trakehner Horses, Then and Now we learn just how useful and cost effective a Warmblood mare was supposed to be:
The Eastern Prussian broodmare so-to-speak had to pass a daily performance on her breeder’s farm… With this objective in mind, new tests were developed. Eastern Prussia instituted a three part exam: A. performance test with a plough, team of two, single share plough, time required 4 hours…B. performance test in heavy harness, pulling a load, team of two, on hard road…C. Final test under a rider, free walk, free trot without minimum performance. Gallop 2km in a total maximum time of 5 minutes, 30 seconds."
The origin of the breed is a small horse - bred locally in East Prussia - known as the “Schwaike”. The Schwaike was known for its versatility and endurance. When this breed was crossed with imported English thoroughbred and Arabian stallions, the resulting horse was named after the main stud it came from: Trakehnen. The original purpose of the Trakehner was for use as calvary mount.
In the early 18th century, King Friedrich Wilhelm I realized that a new type of cavalry mount was needed as war tactics had changed and demanded a faster, lighter horse that also posessed power and endurance. In 1732, he moved the best of his cavalry horses to the new royal stud farm Trakehnen and began to systematically breed a horse that would meet many criteria. The new cavalry mounts had to be attractive enough to be a representative horse for his officers, but additionally had to be tough enough to survive harsh situations and come out sound. Through his efforts, the Trakehner breed evolved.
At the same time, East Prussian farmers were breeding the same base of horses, but for the daily work in the fields. Soil in East Prussia was always heavy and deep, and from today’s point of view it might seem strange that noble Trakehner horses were pulling ploughs through thick mud, but from the standpoint of breed selection, it is a major reason the Trakehner soon had the reputation of a hard-working animal with little need for maintenance.
Not only logical but I can read for comprehension and not take things out of context. The Trak was bred for a Calvary mount and that was the intention of it’s creator. It is not causation if they used some of the mares outside the stud farm for working. That is not the Royal Stud farm, which keep it’s own stock separate. But it is an added value that the relatives of the Trak mares were that versatile.
[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7613322]
Holsteiners have been top jumping horses for quite a while now. With PRUDENT use of TB sires, and certain TB sire lines, they refined the heavier type- but the mother line is Holteiner.
If all you needed was a TB to improve the jump, then it would stand that the other WB’s would be better known for producing jumpers, because they have used TB’s too, mostly to lighten up the older styles. The world went from an era of all around use of horses to horses as pleasure mounts, and the Europeans followed the market, but kept the qualities found in their respective areas. But the best known WB breed for jumping is the Holsteiner, and very often, when you look at jumping lines in other WBs, it very often is quite a Holsteiner pedigree you are looking at.
Rather than argue about WB vs. TB, I would like to know more of the history of the jumping mare lines, why the Verband used TB’s and what made a good TB for them to use, and if the old saying I always heard, “That if you didn’t introduce TB blood every once in a while, the WB would revert back to the heavier horses of days gone by,” is valid any more.
This can be a great thread for learning, even to find the “type” of TB that a European verband would use and why. I still think it’s more appropriate to say the “wrong TB” can kill the jump.
Again, if the TB is that important, why have other verbands using TB’s not quite succeeded where the Holsteiner has? Pointing out an individual here and there doesn’t compare with the consistency produced by Holstein. Holstein had the mares, something about them made them perhaps better jumpers, and how they wove in just the right TB’s, via the sire, to come up with the product they have today.
I’d love to know more of the history and thinking behind these horses and when and what “blood” was introduced for what reasons. I appreciate all who contribute to that knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Most of the top jumpers today are a mix of bloodlines. Top jumpers have come from all registries. Hanoverians have produced many top jumpers, for example, and while the emphasis has been more on dressage in recent years, those lines are still found in many top jumpers now. And of course you are leaving out the Selle Francais lines, the ISH lines…
TB blood has been added to warmbloods since at least the 19th century. I posted at least one link on the subject in this thread. Here’s a link pertaining to Holsteiners: http://www.equiworld.net/breeds/holstein/index.htm
Omare posted a link to part two of this series from The Horse Magazine earlier: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-1/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-2/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-3/
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