TB kills the jump?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7612061]
Kind of funny, and again, I say this as someone who loves tbs but understands warmbloods are the marketplace for sporthorses, but my experience is many Tbs are actually much, much more tolerant of mistakes than some warmbloods. Many fox hunters for instance are God awful riders, and God bless the thoroughbreds who tolerate them. I worked with a BNT who was also a TB breeder: one of his favorite saying was when you make a mistake on a warmblood, he makes you pay for it; when you make a mistake on a thoroughbred, he thinks it’s his fault."

All of this talk of TBs being too “athletic” for many riders is absolutely nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Most average TBs are too much for the average rider to handle. That is what all “this talk” disseminates from.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Oh, I agree ladyj79, I was talking about TBs who are fed heavily, trained heavily, and used in top level competition way back when.

After I was diagnosed with MS the first horse that I rode independently (not being led by someone else) that was owned by another person was a TB mare. Physically I was terribly weak, bad balance, hand tremors, etc…, but I was bold enough to get up on her, my hands did not bother her, and she let me improve her way of going. I did not get into a single argument with that mare. She took very good care of me! But then I am a Forward Seat rider and however weak and unbalanced I get I want the same thing a TB often wants, to go FORWARD even if it is just at a walk.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I just have to say that I LOVE the recent direction this thread has taken Long live the TB, and touche’ to the many supporters of the breed who have eloquently described the many and multitudinous ways in which they have proven themselves; they are the ultimate sporthorse. The TB is probably THE most versatile athlete, and its influence has not only impacted but RESULTED in the modern WB–and has been key to its athletic and competitive success–in all disciplines.

Yes, it’s unfortunate and tragic that many of the best TB bloodlines are unavailable to the breeder, and therefore unusable (damn, greedy Jockey Club and short-sighted money motivated racing industry in general), what a waste ), but this doesn’t mean that they are NOT capable athletes, simply because finding the best of them is like finding a needle in a haystack.

NOT the case with WBs, who are not bred under the same closed-minded restrictions.

Correlation doesn’t equal causality, but some people are obtuse, rigid, opinionated, and completely inflexible. And possibly need a shoe up their ass (putting them on ignore is, alas, not sufficient.)

I’ve found this thread very educational (thank you to all of those who provided links and stories and history!), what a wonderful way to learn

And SEPowell?? I love you

[Jackie_Cochran]

Over a century ago the Englishman Wilfred Blunt and his wife Lady Anne Blunt went to the Middle Eastern desert and selected and imported to England the Arabian mares and stallions that became the basis of Crabett Stud and the modern Egyptian/Blunt Al Khamsa breeding group. Mr. Blunt had two big reasons for doing this. First, he was troubled by the decreasing stamina and hardiness of the English TB and hoped that the Arab blood would re-vivify the TB breed (this experiment was a total failure, non-TB “kills the speed”.)

The other reason was to provide to the British non-TB horse breeders a source of “blood” to improve thier stock. Back then not only were the stud fees of the most athletic TBs absolutely astronomical, the owners of the TB stallions often would not breed their stallions to any “lesser” horses. A few of them might make an exception for a friend of their social class but after the establishment of the GSB many REFUSED to breed to a non-TB. This second experiment of Wilfred Blunt worked spectacularly well, especially in the British pony breeds and general riding horse population.

So this problem of not being able to afford the BEST TB breeding stock is not new. Even so, with the dribs and drabs of TB genes that the TB breeders allowed to escape their control, world horsebreeding was totally transformed (including for the jump, the TB jump.) Yes, the rest of us ended up with the second and third rate sons and daughters of the great TBs in the pedigrees of EVERY light horse breed other than the Arab, Barb (includes Iberian), and the various Turkomen strains.

TB, Arab, Barb, Turkomen, they all brought HEART into the TB breed. Only in the modern TB is this HEART in a body conformed to deliver high performance on the flat, over jumps, going fast or going slow.

And I say this as someone who is totally besotted with riding Arabians.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7587561]
They do but they don’t ask the TB stallions to jump the same at their approval because they can’t.

They get the jump from the mother and want the refinement ,blood and reflexes from the TB Stallion.

What they lose from the TB stallion ,they hope to regain in the following generations.[/QUOTE]

How do you know warmbloods get the jump from the mother?? It’s like saying thoroughbreds get their speed from their fathers. That information is not available to any of us, period.

Myths, all myths.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7612443]
How do you know warmbloods get the jump from the mother?? It’s like saying thoroughbreds get their speed from their fathers. That information is not available to any of us, period.

Myths, all myths.[/QUOTE]

See , this is where you need to learn more. It is known all over breeding that the mare passes the jump gene to the foal.

The only myth is that the TB horse is still somehow relevant in sporthorse breeding.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7612512]
See , this is where you need to learn more. It is known all over breeding that the mare passes the jump gene to the foal.[/QUOTE]

And at one point in time it was known the sun revolved around the earth.

Without scientific studies, a centralized belief is still just a theory, not a fact. Until there is science published that proves the jump comes from the motherline, we can only speculate.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7612512]
See , this is where you need to learn more. It is known all over breeding that the mare passes the jump gene to the foal.

The only myth is that the TB horse is still somehow relevant in sporthorse breeding.[/QUOTE]

Not enough about genetics is known to make statements like that. Like Beowulf said, you can only speculate and unfortunately your speculations are made about something where there are so many variables it’s impossible to make even an educated guess.

Maybe breeders have all culled their broodmares so that those who remain tend to pass their athleticism to their foals, or jump to their foals. Why keep a broodmare who doesn’t produce a jumper if your goal is to produce a jumper? But it’s absolutely uninformed and genetically incorrect to say that the mare is genetically responsible for the jump. We don’t have that information yet.

So if this is known all over breeding all of you need to return to school and take a few science courses and critical thinking courses. Then you might be able to see the gaps in your logic.

[vineyridge]

There used to be a belief that the mare was nothing but a conduit for the sire to pass on this traits. That’s one reason why so many Irish have “unknown mares”–because they didn’t believe that the mare mattered. This was pretty much a prevalent belief until the discovery of the double helix in about 1950, although certain breeds and breeding theorists took different positions in the 1890s when the study of genetics really got started. Bruce Lowe is an example; I have no idea when the Traks started their mare focus.

If the jump comes from the mare, then all those Holsteiner stallions who are spreading their genes across the KWPN and other registries certainly wouldn’t be doing much good, would they?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7612532]
Not enough about genetics is known to make statements like that. Like Beowulf said, you can only speculate and unfortunately your speculations are made about something where there are so many variables it’s impossible to make even an educated guess.

Maybe breeders have all culled their broodmares so that those who remain tend to pass their athleticism to their foals, or jump to their foals. Why keep a broodmare who doesn’t produce a jumper if your goal is to produce a jumper? But it’s absolutely uninformed and genetically incorrect to say that the mare is genetically responsible for the jump. We don’t have that information yet.

So if this is known all over breeding all of you need to return to school and take a few science courses and critical thinking courses. Then you might be able to see the gaps in your logic.[/QUOTE]

There are no gaps in my logic. There are virtually NO Tb horses at top sport…you don’t need logic to see this.

Mares and mare families absolutely pass the jumping to their offspring. Why do you think there are mare family rankings ? Why do you think the mares are COVETED in Europe ? Because they know they have the genes to pass.

Where is the TB mare coveted by breeders of top sport ? Where is a single TB mare family ranked anywhere for producing sporthorses ? They’re not , because they don’t produce it.

Virtually no one above the 1.20 meter ranks want a TB. Virtualy no breeder of top sporthorses wants a TB. There are virtually no TB’s winning anywhere.

The TB can’t even win Olympic Gold in eventing anymore. Last few Olympics warmbloods have kicked their ass and took the hardware home.

I said it above…the myth is that they are still relevant.

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7612532]
Not enough about genetics is known to make statements like that. [/QUOTE]

I agree that scientifically it is hard to justify generational observations made in horse breeding. I also understand that before there was a way to quantify evidence in breeding, many improvements have been made in breeding for the Olympic disciplines based on observation over time.

That being said, the only reason I am posting is because I came across an interesting journal article a while back about trying to quantify traits that promote showjumping and was curious if anyone had any thoughts about it. Could it be a way to determine genetic contribution in the future? Could research like this one day impact our choices for breeding? If yes, of course a much more robust analysis would be needed imo (and it is cost prohibitive now to use outside of science) but still very interesting to think about.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2052.2011.02265.x/abstract;jsessionid=CFA7BB3AF0ECE8358B3E4AAAB27B62B2.f02t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

ETA: The part that I think is maybe most pertinent to the recent discussion brought up in this thread about Holsteiners and their breeding paradigm (promoting homozygosity) is this (from the article above in case people don’t have time to fish through it):

The distribution of genotypes by gene proportions for the different breeds shows that increasing gene proportions of Holsteiners are related to the positive effects of the alleles for the SNPs BIEC2-18316 (AA genotype frequency increasing with more Holsteiner genes), BIEC2-1036317 (GG genotype frequency increasing with more Holsteiner genes), BIEC2-683832 (CC genotype frequency increasing with more Holsteiner genes) and BIEC2-
689886 (CC genotype frequency increasing with more
Holsteiner genes).

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7612546]
There used to be a belief that the mare was nothing but a conduit for the sire to pass on this traits. That’s one reason why so many Irish have “unknown mares”–because they didn’t believe that the mare mattered. This was pretty much a prevalent belief until the discovery of the double helix in about 1950, although certain breeds and breeding theorists took different positions in the 1890s when the study of genetics really got started. Bruce Lowe is an example; I have no idea when the Traks started their mare focus.

If the jump comes from the mare, then all those Holsteiner stallions who are spreading their genes across the KWPN and other registries certainly wouldn’t be doing much good, would they?[/QUOTE]

Again…you miss the mark Viney and you can’t see the forest for the trees. One of the reasons all those Holsteiner Stallions across Europe are able to transmit those genes IS due in large part to their mothers.

Indoctro is from a Caletto II mother who could jump anything and we all know about the ability to pass jumping genes from those Caletto II mares.

Cardento is from a top mother from a top stamm.

Corland is from a top stamm 104a.

Contendro is from a top mother 104a who has produced countless top horses no matter the sire. ETc. Etc etc.

Man…if you guys are now arguing against mares being progenitors of jumping genes…you are further behind in your knowledge that I imagined.

This is EXACTLY why your beloved TB’s are not showing up anywhere ! They are not from sport producing mothers !

[vineyridge]

Bayhawk, if the mare provides the jump, she can pass it to her sons. But they, not being mares, cannot pass it to their descendants.

Look, I agree that Holsteiner genes are good for modern show jumping. But you cannot locate the jump in the female and pass it on through males. That is a logical contradiction.

[vineyridge]

Is there any way to access the article for free? I’d love to read it. I’m surprised that there has not been more publicity about this in the horse world, since it’s exactly what one has hoped would happen with genetic science. The article dates to 2012, and this is the first time it’s been mentioned here.

If anyone can get if for me, please send me a PM.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7612719]
Bayhawk, if the mare provides the jump, she can pass it to her sons. But they, not being mares, cannot pass it to their descendants.

Look, I agree that Holsteiner genes are good for modern show jumping. But you cannot locate the jump in the female and pass it on through males. That is a logical contradiction.[/QUOTE]

OMG Viney. No one said fathers couldn’t contribute jump and only the mares could. We know that jumping genes are consolidated in the Holsteiner mare. They have the smallest herd , yet own 14 of the top 25 mare families in the world including the positions of 1,2 and 3.

You think Capitol got his jumping ability from Ramzes ? No…he got it thru consolidation of the mares in 173 and 104a. (Retina and Folia who could jump your proverbial house) . Then and only then…was Capitol able to pass those genes on thru his get and become a sire of sires.

Landgraf…by Ladykiler xx out of Warthburg from the prepotent motherline of 275. Could Ladykiler xx jump your house ? No , but Warthburg could and she gave that gene to Landgraf to propogate. Ladykiller xx brought refinement , quickeness and blood to the mix. The jump was already in the mother.

This is why Ladykiller xx wasn’t able to endure a line. he didn’t have strong enough TB mothers to secure continued success. Landgraf , Lord and Liostro were his best sons but they became broodmare sires.

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7612727]
Is there any way to access the article for free? I’d love to read it. I’m surprised that there has not been more publicity about this in the horse world, since it’s exactly what one has hoped would happen with genetic science. The article dates to 2012, and this is the first time it’s been mentioned here.

If anyone can get if for me, please send me a PM.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry about the article. I didn’t realize that it was not open access when I linked it because I was logged in on my University computer. I pmed you about it Viney.

I know that Kathrin Stock and others at the Institute for Animal Breeding and Genetics, University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover have published a little on the subject and there has also been a little bit of research done with Dutch Warmbloods and Swedish Warmbloods. However, prior to the study that I linked most of the studies have been very observational. I hope that we will see more and more research linking traits with genes in horses in the future. However, to this point I think real meat-and-potato science has been sparse in favor of ecologic type studies (probably has something to do with funding).

[vineyridge]

How do you know Warthburg could jump a house? Was she ever tried? Did you see her? Is there video?

I’ve looked, using horsetelex and she seems to have had only six foals, all by Ladykiller xx, so what makes you think the jump genes came only through her? Her dam only seems to have had two foals, both daughters, and the other mare (Jenni) had a TB sire and has been a good line for jumpers. Jenni’s daughter, Florina, produced a couple of 1.60 meter horses, as did her daughter but her sire was also a TB. Jenni’s daughter Avion was a 1.60 meter horse but she didn’t reproduce herself. Warthburg’s granddam also only had two foals, and the other daughter doesn’t seem to have produced anything higher than a 1.4 meter jumper, but quite few dressage horses come through the granddam’s other daughter. It looks as if that line has ended up in Holland.

One could just as easily say that none of those mares’ produce could jump 1.6 meters unless the mare was bred to or from a TB.

I do recognize that horsetelex may not have complete foal crops for Warthburg, her dam, her half sister, and her granddam’s other female descendants.

What makes you believe Warthburg could jump a house?

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Holsteiners have been top jumping horses for quite a while now. With PRUDENT use of TB sires, and certain TB sire lines, they refined the heavier type- but the mother line is Holteiner.

If all you needed was a TB to improve the jump, then it would stand that the other WB’s would be better known for producing jumpers, because they have used TB’s too, mostly to lighten up the older styles. The world went from an era of all around use of horses to horses as pleasure mounts, and the Europeans followed the market, but kept the qualities found in their respective areas. But the best known WB breed for jumping is the Holsteiner, and very often, when you look at jumping lines in other WBs, it very often is quite a Holsteiner pedigree you are looking at.

Rather than argue about WB vs. TB, I would like to know more of the history of the jumping mare lines, why the Verband used TB’s and what made a good TB for them to use, and if the old saying I always heard, “That if you didn’t introduce TB blood every once in a while, the WB would revert back to the heavier horses of days gone by,” is valid any more.

This can be a great thread for learning, even to find the “type” of TB that a European verband would use and why. I still think it’s more appropriate to say the “wrong TB” can kill the jump.

Again, if the TB is that important, why have other verbands using TB’s not quite succeeded where the Holsteiner has? Pointing out an individual here and there doesn’t compare with the consistency produced by Holstein. Holstein had the mares, something about them made them perhaps better jumpers, and how they wove in just the right TB’s, via the sire, to come up with the product they have today.

I’d love to know more of the history and thinking behind these horses and when and what “blood” was introduced for what reasons. I appreciate all who contribute to that knowledge.

[Elles]

On a German forum:
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?66271-Zucht-Warum-uns-das-Ausland-überholt&highlight=warum+uns+das+ausland+�berholt

Zucht - Warum uns das Ausland überholt

Dr. Wolfgang Schulze-Schleppinghoff (Zuchtleiter Oldenburger Verband)

‘… Wir züchten gut verkäufliche Fohlen, keine Reitpferde …’
Quelle: St. Georg März 2014 (Seite 80-83)

Dr. Wolfgang Schulze-Schleppinghoff from the Oldenburg studbook is asking why other countries are catching up with German breeding. He says that Germany is breeding very saleable horses but not riding horses.

[can_t_re]

I was fortunate to own this Grand Prix thoroughbred mare: http://sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10641667&time=1402233140 She won World Cup classes and many Grand Prixs and 6 bar classes. I would not consider her a jump killer. It was a sad day when I lost her in foal to Indoctro.