[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7620484]
Sigh….there are two arguments on this thread, really. The use of TB’s in the PAST, and their use now in the jumper ranks. No one is saying that Holstein, for example, didn’t make use of TB’s in the PAST to lighten up the mares, and this is becoming quite PAST now. As stated in one of the articles I linked to previously, when Northern Dancer lines began to predominate, the type of TB that was useful in refinement went away. Many TB people lament the loss of the good staying lines and although some ND’s can stay a bit, it didn’t bode well for sport horse use. The ND TYPE may crop up, even if the ND sire doesn’t look or run like him.
The TB’s used in the past, in Holstein, for example, were few and far between. Cottage Son, Ladykiller and to a lesser extent, horses like Manometer. But this is the distant, distant PAST. They were crossed on the good Holstein mare base. Most of these TB’s carried the Dark Ronald line and I think it is telling that for the most part, you’ll only see certain of these lines today in the back of Holsteiner pedigrees.
I think it would be far more educational for people, if we could pick the minds of those who have some knowledge on the subject, why those particular TB’s and why the dipping back to Dark Ronald, for the most part. And no, I don’t buy the argument that Dark Ronald was used only because he was available or that there was no TB mare base in Holstein to use. As I recall they were quite willing to go to England to get Ladykiller, if memory serves. If the Holstein breeders had found or seen any of the talent they wanted in those TB mares in Germany, they would have found a way to use them. They breed for economic returns and usefulness, and if the TB mares were all that and a bag of chips, then they would have used what they had. What they had in the Holstein mare base was a superior producer of the athlete they wanted.
What I’m hearing, to the question I’ve asked before, is if it is any longer necessary to keep adding refinement so the breed doesn’t revert back to heavier versions. And I think the answer I’m seeing is, “no.” At the same time it’s, relatively, a small gene pool and that is why I think they go outside the Verband, as do other WB registries, for something new on occasion. And they have varying results with that.
A rabbit will be pulled out of the proverbial hat that is a TB or TB dam line sometime. The issue is the CONSISTENCY of the breed in general. Not every horse is going to be a top GP jumper. But the odds go up with the right breeding. If you’re looking for talent, the odds are better with that Holstein mare base. Sure, you might find a TB with the talent, but you didn’t find that jumper in someone’s herd where most have the potential because they’ve been in the business of producing them for ages.
As for researching pedigrees, I love to do that. But I’m not blind to the fact that most TB’s today are going to have those names somewhere in their pedigree. But, within the first say, three generations, do we see that talent still there? How do you get a CONSISTENT product for jumping from a mare base selected for producing black-type winners? Apples and oranges.
I participated in getting a TB mare approved and breeding her. She even had the much valued Buckpasser in the third, plus a lot of other names you’ll recognize: My Babu, Alibhai, Round Table, Khaled, etc. Not the burn-up-the tracks relatives up closer, but maybe for sport? She was a good, big mare who got good marks on movement. But that F1 I bred? Reverted back to her granddad, a Mr. Prospector/ND bred sire. Short, chunky, and out of the three grand- ancestors in the background, the ONLY one like that. Yet, those were the genes that stopped that breeding plan. I had no way of getting consistency out of it. I’d really need a TB mare that we haven’t seen much of for a long time- one with stayer lines top and bottom. And I’m hypothesizing that some of that comes from crossing speed (top) over stamina (bottom) a common adage in TB breeding. It might work for the track, but it won’t product a consistent sport horse type. That is why you can consistently breed a good product in the Holstein mare base. When they used the TB stallions, the ones used weren’t many and they were crossed on the mare base, which had CONSISTENCY in its lines for generations. They knew the result they wanted and were able to absorb a lack of any performance to get the refinement. I’d still like to know what and why they kept to the TB lines they did use, in the PAST.
I love TB’s. But I’m not blind to problems in using the ones produced since the advent of speed over class. I’m curious if Holstein were looking for a TB today, would they be doing it to keep the refinement, or to further refine? And while there may be winners at distances today, is it because, well, someone will hit the finish line first, whether they really are a classic horse or not? And on that point, how many thought Tonalist would get the Belmont distance? By Tapit? Yet, they say his mother supplied much of the stamina. If the TB mare line is commonly used for stamina, then why can’t Holstein mares supply the jump?[/QUOTE]
You’re basing your experience on ONE horse? After all of the examples provided on this thread? Did you read the thread? Did you read the article by Tom Reed where he interviewed Thomas Nissen, general and breeding manager of the Holsteiner Verband? Here it is again in case you missed it:
http://www.morningside-stud.com/gpage16.html
I bred a TB mare and got a beautiful horse. Although his mother was also a beautiful horse and a very nice athlete, proven under saddle, so…
You can get a throwback when breeding warmbloods too, you know. They get sent here. As I’ve written (I believe on this thread), changes in the Holsteiner phenotype – well, all warmbloods for that matter – are quite recent.
