TB kills the jump?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7620449]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1VdYFQ2f4

She is quick but you would think you might have to be careful what you breed her too. (She is a kick on quick verses a take you to the fence quick)

(edited to add: Generally–not related to this mare, I am curious as to next steps/next generation on breeding a thoroughbred riding type but not refined in phenotype mare but I am guessing that goes to distingushing needing blood for riding verses needing refinement. )[/QUOTE]

Really Omare ? You think this is a “kick on quick” mare ? Now you are trying to break down what type of quick she is ? Really ? What you should have said is… DAMN NICE MARE !

I think she was taking her rider to the fence very quicky…obviously.

[ladyj79]

Curriculum Vitae; ie academic resume. You can have mine haha I’ll trade for your more extensive experience.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7620954]
Curriculum Vitae; ie academic resume. You can have mine haha I’ll trade for your more extensive experience.[/QUOTE]

Oh I see…No academic book experience on horses but I do have a nearly 2 decade long masters degree in wiping the mud from the pastures in Holstein off my boots. Does that count ?

[Foxtrot_s]

kinda meaning track record? I think it comes across as a snark, but it is honestly out of interest.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7620972]
kinda meaning track record? I think it comes across as a snark, but it is honestly out of interest.[/QUOTE]

No , I didn’t take it as snarky…I didn’t know what it meant. LOL Look at my response above to ladyj79

[omare]

Bayhawk I was not suggesting she was not a nice mare --as you like to say --dont put words in my mouth-- but you can see when she is urged on -encouraged on – she responds quickly – but she is not getting to the fences by bringing her rider to them with her rider making her wait --there are different types of quickness in my mind-- but as you would point out what do I know.
(And she looks a little like she cranks her tail between fences when she is being enccouraged by the spur(?) she is mare after all- a guess only . that tail action is in contrast to her lovely tail flip over the fences)

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7620970]
Oh I see…No academic book experience on horses but I do have a nearly 2 decade long masters degree in wiping the mud from the pastures in Holstein off my boots. Does that count ?[/QUOTE]

Yes! I’m pretty sure that’s the best education one can get!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7620896]
Right…nobody is disputing that WBs & other horses were used in agriculture. My point is that there were also riding lines. Yes, there was some overlap, but the differentiation began quite early on.

I didn’t say that Am TBs hadn’t proven themselves as top jumpers in the past. I said they weren’t used in the studbooks to improve the WB lines…English TBs (and others more like them than Am TBs were).

And, though many TBs of all kinds are amazing athletes, there is (and always was) a vast difference between American TBs & the others.

I do believe that Am TB sporthorse lines could be developed into competitive jumping lines today, but I don’t believe that they will be. Why? Because it would take generations to do and there’s just no need for that kind of investment with the options already available.

But, there is absolutely a place in the lower level stuff for them. And, why is that such a bad thing? The largest base of the US riding population will never need a 1.6m showjumper…and couldn’t ride one if they had it.[/QUOTE]

So what are these supposed differences between the TBs used in European breeding and successful American jumpers? In actuality it really doesn’t matter. Plenty of TBs have been imported from Europe to breed all along, such as Nasrullah. The English TB now has Northern Dancer descendants too.

It would not necessarily take generations to breed TBs for 1.6m jumpers. Look at Brilliant Invader and his get. Did you see that post on this thread? And forget about calling him an “exception”. That’s a tired argument. Any horse that can sire that many 1.6 m jumpers is exceptionable.

Nobody said it’s a bad thing so use TBs for lower levels. Warmbloods are used for lower levels too.

Can you quote where the book says that riding and driving warmbloods were divided early on? Those Trak tests from the 30s don’t indicate that. Modern carriage horses have a lot of dressage blood and can make fantastic dressage horses. Plus, uses of warmbloods changed with the times over the centuries too.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7620984]
Bayhawk I was not suggesting she was not a nice mare --as you like to say --dont put words in my mouth-- but you can see when she is urged on -encouraged on – she responds quickly – but she is not getting to the fences by bringing her rider to them with her rider making her wait --there are different types of quickness in my mind-- but as you would point out what do I know.
(And she looks a little like she cranks her tail between fences when she is being enccouraged by the spur(?) she is mare after all- a guess only . that tail action is in contrast to her lovely tail flip over the fences)[/QUOTE]

I think you are mis reading that tail. That is a sign of aggression to the fence. She’s saying let me go ! This mare has all the blood in the world and sometimes even gets too deep to the fence because of it.

I bought this mare for her owner at 2 yrs of age. Her quality was apparent since she was a foal.

So she is Cassini II / Contender / Laval I / Fernando / Landgraf…where does the blood come from ?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7620993]
Yes! I’m pretty sure that’s the best education one can get![/QUOTE]

LOL…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7620970]
Oh I see…No academic book experience on horses but I do have a nearly 2 decade long masters degree in wiping the mud from the pastures in Holstein off my boots. Does that count ?[/QUOTE]

If you want to raise pasture, absolutely - assuming someone explained to you about the soils and plants there.

If you were interested in the cattle, sheep or horses, I would hope you made your tour with a variety of breeders with differing mare lines, had discussions with directora at Celle, maybe even did some reading away from the pastures so you might recognize the horses matched with the pedigrees.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7621058]
If you want to raise pasture, absolutely - assuming someone explained to you about the soils and plants there.

If you were interested in the cattle, sheep or horses, I would hope you made your tour with a variety of breeders with differing mare lines, had discussions with directora at Celle, maybe even did some reading away from the pastures so you might recognize the horses matched with the pedigrees.[/QUOTE]

You really have no idea do you ? Celle has nothing to do with what goes on in Holstein.

First of all , do you realize that the breeders in Holstein run the show ? Maybe when you have time , you can learn what Verband der zuchter das Holsteiner Pferdes means ?

No matter what the leaders of the Verband want…it’s up to the breeders to use which stallions they prefer. They control the success of stallions based off their opinions of the foals.

I personally know every mare for 4 generations of every horse I own here or in Germany and in some cases 5 generations.

Maybe you should ask around about my abilities to recognize horses and their pedigrees before you make such an un-informed statement.

[D_BaldStockings]

There are horses without Northern Dancer in the pedigree if that is the problem with TB ‘looks’ (you never said whether the offspring could jump?).

This one does have ND, but through Nijinsky (winner of the British Triple crown so I guess the Europeans don’t dislike ND so much), and very far back.

Abraaj was a sprinter, the most common races on the card.

http://www.canmorfarms.ca/IMAGES/ABRAAJ/abraaj.pdf

It is interesting that there have been trainers that could train ‘sprint bred’ horses to go a distance and win over ‘staying lines’ horses. As athletes, genetics can be a very basic start from which the better trainer can achieve a variety of results.

If you truly believe Staying history is necessary to have jump in a TB (I don’t), then look to the horses in the Melbourne Cup, the Ascot Gold Cup, the Gold Cup at York, the Prix Du Cadran in France,the San Juan Capistrano at Santa Anita, the Belmont.

Then you can show me the GP show jump course that is even 1/2 mile long!

[omare]

"I think you are mis reading that tail. "
LOL yes indeed -she is a girl afterall-obviously I have known my share who let their opinions be know by their tail!

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621086]
You really have no idea do you ? Celle has nothing to do with what goes on in Holstein.

First of all , do you realize that the breeders in Holstein run the show ? Maybe when you have time , you can learn what Verband der zuchter das Holsteiner Pferdes means ?

No matter what the leaders of the Verband want…it’s up to the breeders to use which stallions they prefer. They control the success of stallions based off their opinions of the foals.

I personally know every mare for 4 generations of every horse I own here or in Germany and in some cases 5 generations.

Maybe you should ask around about my abilities to recognize horses and their pedigrees before you make such an un-informed statement.[/QUOTE]

You are right, I should have said the Verband. I guess I am tired - no excuse.

Four generations of tail female mares only, or ALL the mares in the 4 generation pedigree?

The breeders must use approved stallions. If you believe that the mare owners control the success of the stallions through their breeding choices, I agree, but not their opinions of the foals; that is for the inspectors and directors to choose.
http://auswaertige-holsteiner-zuechter.de/front_content.php?idcat=26&idart=109&changelang=4

Thank you for sharing that you know horses, not mud.

Since we are speaking of TB, not Holsteiners, I don’t know what recognizing Holsteiners visually has to do with the discussion.
Except that you might not have met many of the 3rd or 4th generation mares that contributed to the sires of your lovely tail mare descendants, since not all happened to be within the Holstein mud pastures, and not all of a 4th generation lived during that 20 year span unless none had sport careers and you received first foals from 3-5 year olds in each generation.

Why exaggerate? your knowledge of Holstein is probably impressive; but compared to the family breeders who began before WWII handing down mares through their own descendants I would hope you understand there is always more to learn.

And your knowledge of TB is considerably smaller as they don’t interest you. Fine.

Why jump on people who are interested in TBs and TBs in sport/ breeding in Sport?
Why pontificate on breeds you are not so familiar with, except through your preferred registry which you are not in a position to approve or deny approvals in?
Or did I miss that you are a Director of the Verband?

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621010]
I think you are mis reading that tail. That is a sign of aggression to the fence. She’s saying let me go ! This mare has all the blood in the world and sometimes even gets too deep to the fence because of it.

I bought this mare for her owner at 2 yrs of age. Her quality was apparent since she was a foal.

So she is Cassini II / Contender / Laval I / Fernando / Landgraf…where does the blood come from ?[/QUOTE]

The blood comes from where you refuse to look.

Top to bottom 6th generation for TUYA
Cottage son- TB
Gimara -Hol
Ramzes – Anglo Arab
Dolli -Hol
Manometer – TB
Stor –Hol
Ramzes – Anglo Arab
Rappel -Hol
Rantzau – TB
Quenotte – Fr. Demi-sang
Consul -Hol
Okonomie -Hol
Marion -TB
Turteltaube -Hol
Cobalt-Hol (by Cottage Son x Matador Dau.)
Emiliane -Hol

Rantzau – TB
Quenotte – Fr. Demi-sang
Helssporn -Hol
Hyazinthe -Hol
Raimond – Hol (by Ramzes AA x Fanatiker Dau.)
Valine-Hol (by Cottage Son TB x Logenschliesser Dau.)
Ladykiller –TB
Romina -Hol
Ladykiller –TB
Warthburg -Hol
Sacramento Song -TB
Greit -Hol
Farnese-Hol
Coconella-Hol
Landgraf I –Hol (Ladykiller TB x Aldato Dau.)
Zirza-Hol /Heidgraf -Hol/Anblick -TB/Dorilas -Han/Heidelberg-Hol/ Fanal -Hol

She is Holstein because her dam is in the Holstein studbook.
Her entire pedigree shows plenty of TB, Anglo, even a Hanoverian.
Love how you stopped the T female line before showing Anblick TB.

Selective pedigree reading - not going to help with breeding decisions, but thank goodness you have mentors.

[D_BaldStockings]

So 8 of 32 horses of the 6th generation were TB.
4 more were Anglo or Demi-sang.
3 Holsteins were by TB sires (we call that half-bred)
1 Holstein was by AA
the Tail female has 1/4 blood.

8+4+2 = 14 of 32 (counting the half-breds and half Anglos as halfs)

That’s a lot of turning a blind eye.

It is a wonder the mare can jump at all with so much jump killing that those Holsteiner genes had to overcome.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7621178]
The blood comes from where you refuse to look.

Top to bottom 6th generation for TUYA
Cottage son- TB
Gimara -Hol
Ramzes – Anglo Arab
Dolli -Hol
Manometer – TB
Stor –Hol
Ramzes – Anglo Arab
Rappel -Hol
Rantzau – TB
Quenotte – Fr. Demi-sang
Consul -Hol
Okonomie -Hol
Marion -TB
Turteltaube -Hol
Cobalt-Hol (by Cottage Son x Matador Dau.)
Emiliane -Hol

Rantzau – TB
Quenotte – Fr. Demi-sang
Helssporn -Hol
Hyazinthe -Hol
Raimond – Hol (by Ramzes AA x Fanatiker Dau.)
Valine-Hol (by Cottage Son TB x Logenschliesser Dau.)
Ladykiller –TB
Romina -Hol
Ladykiller –TB
Warthburg -Hol
Sacramento Song -TB
Greit -Hol
Farnese-Hol
Coconella-Hol
Landgraf I –Hol (Ladykiller TB x Aldato Dau.)
Zirza-Hol /Heidgraf -Hol/Anblick -TB/Dorilas -Han/Heidelberg-Hol/ Fanal -Hol

She is Holstein because her dam is in the Holstein studbook.
Her entire pedigree shows plenty of TB, Anglo, even a Hanoverian.
Love how you stopped the T female line before showing Anblick TB.

Selective pedigree reading - not going to help with breeding decisions, but thank goodness you have mentors.[/QUOTE]

Selective pedigree reading is what YOU do. We breed stallions to mares where I come from.

The pedigree of Tuya is Cassini II / Contender / Laval I / Fernando / Landgraf / Heidgraf / Anblick xx / Dorilas / Heidelberg /Loretto / Heintz and that’s all I’m going to write.

You see ONE TB inserted in this entire stamm. You just don’t get it.

Your own example of all the Tb’s in her ENTIRE pedigree and the one I just made only serves to prove my point. We don’t need TB’s directly. Their day is over…linebreeding to them is all we need. The breeders have figured this out thus explaining why your beloved TB Stallions are only getting LESS than 1% of all warmblood mares in Europe.

Your Tb’s are not winning any major competitions…their motherlines aren’t ranked anywhere for sproducing sporthorses and even the stallions in the generational production of the warmblood is at an all time low.

The great TB Stallions of old have done their job and we can go back and tap into them anytime thru linebreeding.

Todays TB’s are jump killers. Why do you think there were only 30 foals born to TB Stallions in Holstein last year out of a total of over 3,600 foals ? 30 out of 3,600…less than 1% according to my math.

They aren’t Ladykiller xx and Cottage Son xx…they are not the same and the breeders refuse to use them. If you had seen some of them you would understand why.

Look to the elite mare show in Holstein on the 18th. There are three half bred mares by Ibisco xx that have made it to the elite mare show. I hope they breed good in the future because after much hype… they’ve already shipped Ibisco xx off to Siberia or somewhere.

Anything you post from now on…you’re right and you win. I’m long since bored with this. Nice chatting with you.

[Bayhawk]

Ooops…I forgot one thing. I did a little research of my own and this is what I found.

Since 1978 , there have been 1.3 million TB foals registered in the Jockey Club. So there have been on average 36,111 TB foals born per year for each and every one of the last 36 years.

There is no top TB Stallion breeding sporthorses anywhere in the world.

With very few exceptions…there are virtually no TB’s competing at the top of the sport.

There are virtually no top horses from TB mothers competing at the top of the sport and there are no TB mare families ranked anywhere for producing sporthorses in this country or anywhere else for that matter.

1.3 million foals born in the last 36 years… 36,111 born every year and virtually no top sporthorses to come from them , yet you D. Baldstockings , Vineyridge , Elles ,GAP , etc. have the audacity to continue to tell us how great they are for producing sporhorses ? WOW !

[vineyridge]

Bayhawk, you’re a blind man. TBs compete and do well at 4* events quite regularly, even with the new cheapened format. Or is eventing not considered sport to you? They are still used quite often to produce event horses, even with the new cheapened format, even though the Germans don’t think Blood is needed except for the pinnacle of the sport–the 4*.

In eventing before the format changes, the FN, in an official publication which I own, said that event horses needed to be 3/4 TB. If you are ever as successful at breeding your show jumpers as Herr Butt was at breeding event horses, I’ll give your argument some credence.