Unfortunately the train had left the station…if TB breeders had selectively bred for sport and not racing, in the same way as the Europeans had, we would have lines of TB’s that were sporthorses of top level, and the WB would be the additions. The WB had the head start by a country mile.
It is not all bad with regard to Ibisco:
http://www.reiterjournal.com/front_content.php?idart=4088
Die Siegerstuten (in Klammern die Aussteller):
Warmblut: Insomnia by Ibisco xx/Rainbow (Wolfgang Martin, Kraichtal)
Translation:
The champion mares (in brackets the exhibitor):
Warmblood: Insomnia von Ibisco xx/Rainbow (Wolfgang Martin, Kraichtal)
http://www.llh.hessen.de/hessisches-landgestuet-dillenburg/918-vater-ibisco-xx.html
Two new recommendations are found in the trade press for our thoroughbred stallion Ibisco xx.
For one wonderful daughter Carlotta, who became the only half-blood Mare overall reserve champion of this year’s Holsteiner elite show in Elmshorn. Carlotta IV xx v. Ibisco-Coriano – Caletto I was bred by Kirsten roll, Struvenhütten, and brought the already good grades (jumping 8.5) from the Mare test. She is “outstanding lined, with very good type expression, very correct foundation (legs) and very rythmical, loose movements” presented as rapporteur Dr. Axel Brockmann in Elmshorn, (horse and sports 7/2013).
Also pleasing the message in the journal “Die Süddeutschen” is that Carlotta’s full brother of Incantas v. Ibisco xx - Coriano – Caletto I 3/2013 (breeder: Kirsten roll, Struvenhütten) switches to double Olympic Champion Michael Jung. As a premium Stallion Incantas 2012 left the Munich Sueddeutsche “keuring” (the Dutch word, do not know the English word for it) location and came through the auction to Julia Schmid, Urspring, initially provided him to the main and state stud Marbach. After a good 30-day trial and good foals, Michael Jung has now bought the Brown Incantas.
http://www.llh.hessen.de/downloads/landgestuet/aktuelles/Hengstkatalog_2014.pdf
http://www.llh.hessen.de/zucht.html
Fragonard xx wurde in Holstein ebenso gut angenommen wie Ibisco xx bei uns, deshalb bleibt die Stationierung im Tausch noch ein weiteres Jahr bestehen.
Translation:
Fragonard xx was in Holstein as well adopted as Ibisco xx is with us, therefore the exchange of the two stallions remains for another year.
http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idart=4745
Nr 20 is an Ibisco xx:
http://www.holsteiner.it/collezione.asp?asta=41&tip=3
BTW, Lauries Crusador is the sire of a horse competing in the Luhmuhlen 4* this weekend.
Anywhere in the world? What do you know about Australia and New Zealand breeding? What do you know about South Africa? I don’t know anything about any of them, except that New Zealand and Australia have exported their TBs to the rest of the world for eventing.
I don’t even want to get into this exchange - it’s just too entertaining the way it is 
And I see both sides of having plenty of good thoughts and arguments, but I also think you guys tend to speak about different things sometimes, where a lot of the misunderstanding stems from.
However, this I cannot just let go, too tempting:
Quote by Bayhwk:
Their day is over…linebreeding to them is all we need.
Danger!! Your linebreeding will be diluted to absolute miniscule amounts in the next 10 generations. If you don’t keep refreshing blood, it will be lost. This is not like mixing dough for a cake. I’ve had this discussion with Tom many times, and really value his opinion. I also deeply value his ability to lean and adjust his opinion if presented with different facts and options. Something that is a bit lacking in this excurs here.
Meaning - indeed the Holsteiner Verband in Germany, as in fact EVERY Verband in Germany, is deperately seeking good TB stallions (mares for the Trakehners) to infuse. Not to create the next Ladykiller - he is indeed not needed anymore because we’re past the point of “remodeling” a breed. But the C,L,M TB blood will be no good in 20 years if you don’t maintain a certain genetic background for it to work on. The problem is with identifying these stallions - they have considerbly less chances than Ladykiller did in his day, yet are measured by how many sport horses they procuce, which Ladykiller directly never was (you’d be surprised). Sheer numers alone tell you that they cannot be compared with a Cassini if they don’t gret the mares and number of mares as a Cassini. Since that will never happen … tough luck. It is just so much more difficult to find the next big star. It will take a decade for a new Heraldik (and he was not the sire of numerous 1.60m horses either, his value lies elsewhere).
Favoritas was a chance that was missed, Bonapate, despite the fact that his stallion line did create a new family (stallion line) in Holstein, is overlooked, Esteban didn’t hold up what he promised, Ibisco is phenotypically more a dressage horse and so are his offspring (I’ve seen them), Fragonard xx etc just breed way too little numbers to ever matter.
The TB cannot win this battle. Yet at the same time, WB breeders would be ill-advised to think that they can continue to maintain Ladykiller’s and Cottage’s Son’s impact by just crossing back to them over and over again. The Holsteiner breed as it is is genetically very close and that is already causing issues. Not short term, but longterm. Fixing this will be a monumental task.
Now please carry on …
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7620807]
I’ll get my head bitten off here - but the lines in UK and France and Europe generally are quite a lot different than US lines where the specialization has been to speed and early maturity. Steeplechase and eventer TB’s are a different animal.[/QUOTE]
Not going to bite off your head, just going to say that most steeplechase tbs and eventers were originally bred for racing and raced. They came out of the same foal crop as those bred for speed and early maturity.
Breeding for classic races is where the major breeders want to focus. By classic races I mean longer distances.
Excuse me for the digression. Carry on.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621279]
Ooops…I forgot one thing. I did a little research of my own and this is what I found.
Since 1978 , there have been 1.3 million TB foals registered in the Jockey Club. So there have been on average 36,111 TB foals born per year for each and every one of the last 36 years.
There is no top TB Stallion breeding sporthorses anywhere in the world.
With very few exceptions…there are virtually no TB’s competing at the top of the sport.
There are virtually no top horses from TB mothers competing at the top of the sport and there are no TB mare families ranked anywhere for producing sporthorses in this country or anywhere else for that matter.
1.3 million foals born in the last 36 years… 36,111 born every year and virtually no top sporthorses to come from them , yet you D. Baldstockings , Vineyridge , Elles ,GAP , etc. have the audacity to continue to tell us how great they are for producing sporhorses ? WOW ![/QUOTE]
Bayhawk, you really do have a problem with logical thinking, and lack of knowledge about TBs. Perhaps you should just stick with memorization. In fact, do you know what would really be wonderful? YOU STAYING OFF THESE THREADS.
Very few of these TBs are even given a chance at the top levels of jumping. Very few people overall compete at that sport and those slots are taken by horses that are purpose bred and already started over fences. People are no longer willing to scour the tracks looking for horses to develop. In the 80s the Germans saw an opening in the market and the rest is history.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7621301]
Unfortunately the train had left the station…if TB breeders had selectively bred for sport and not racing, in the same way as the Europeans had, we would have lines of TB’s that were sporthorses of top level, and the WB would be the additions. The WB had the head start by a country mile.[/QUOTE]
Yes, blame the lack of breeders, not the breed. Americans have never seriously bred for jumping and the best we will ever do is ride the European’s coat tails.
As far as division of riding and driving, that may have been the case in some points in history but doesn’t seem to be true overall.
From The Horse Magazine, The Holsteiner Part I. Harm Thormählen, a Holsteiner breeder:
“Two years ago we had a party – it was 440 years that this farm was in the family – always with horses,” Harm tells me. “Here they used to work with horses always. They had to work very hard, the ground here is very special. If you try to plough one hour too late, then the ground is hard like cement. The horses had to work very hard.”
“In 1950 came the first tractor, and the mares went to the butcher – they no longer needed horses! But my father, Rheder Thormählen was interested in horses – after the war he was an international showjumper, and he dealt a lot of horses, this was his hobby. I don’t remember it myself, but Alwyn Schockemöhle told me, my father was one of the biggest dealers in Europe. His hobby was to buy international showjumpers, famous mares who were Grand Prix showjumpers, and 40/50 years later, comes the result from those famous mares. Even at that time, those mares were very expensive. We only breed for jumping on this farm.”
From The International Warmblood Horse:
“Initially, the main uses of the Hannoverian were as a Calvary and artillery horse, and also an all around farm animal. In the 1950’s, as its purpose changed, a more modern, dual-purpose animal was sought that would be able to do lighter farm work whilst still being suitable as a carriage and riding horse combined. A large number of Thoroughbred and good Trakehners were brought in to help modernist and consolidate the breed type.”
Also from The International Warmblood Horse:
The Oldenburg used to be the main coach horse of Germany. With the collapse of the market of coaching horses in the early 20th century, the old type developed from crossings between Friesians, Hannoverians, Normans, Cleveland Bays and Thoroughbreds was updated to an all-around agricultural horse, and remained so during the inter-war years. After the Second World War concentrated efforts were made to lighten the breed still further, which accelerated even faster from the early 1970s onwards when the outstanding merits of such new stallions as Furioso II (1965) by Furioso XX, Kronprinz XX (1960) by Nizam, Inschallah X (1968) by Israel…"
So many horses were lost during the World Wars and after agriculture became mechanized that the registries were forced to salvage whatever they could. From The Horse Magazine, The Holsteiner part II:
“In 1885 they started with 1777 families, today there are 515. In 1948 there were 15 000 mares in Holstein, but because of the replacement of the horse by machines for agricultural purposes, by 1960 there were only 1000.”
1.3 million TB foals born since 1978… an average of 36,111 born each and every year…yet basically nothing !
And you TB jihadists maintain they are good for breeding sporhorses ?
Now my thoughts about it:). Thank you Maren for the nice words about Bonaparte:) he is lovely and let’s hope that he gets some more chances in Celle than he did in Holstein
My thoughts about breeding… There are breeders who think in Generations and Breeders who breed for the market… IMO very sadly most breeders breed for the market and just take what some knowledgeable breeders of the past left them…
Which type of breeder will actually breed for the future is not really known yet… We will know in some years… There are so many stallions of my childhood with a high reputation at that time who are gone… Almost forgotten… Maybe bayhawk is right with his idea simply going the easy way, maybe some of the people who go the harder way against the mainstream will be right… I think we simply don’t know right now…
But I think you should keep in mind, using data from the past will give you not 100 % guarantee for the future
[QUOTE=Maren;7621317]
I don’t even want to get into this exchange - it’s just too entertaining the way it is
And I see both sides of having plenty of good thoughts and arguments, but I also think you guys tend to speak about different things sometimes, where a lot of the misunderstanding stems from.
However, this I cannot just let go, too tempting:
Quote by Bayhwk:
Their day is over…linebreeding to them is all we need.
Danger!! Your linebreeding will be diluted to absolute miniscule amounts in the next 10 generations. If you don’t keep refreshing blood, it will be lost. This is not like mixing dough for a cake. I’ve had this discussion with Tom many times, and really value his opinion. I also deeply value his ability to lean and adjust his opinion if presented with different facts and options. Something that is a bit lacking in this excurs here.
Meaning - indeed the Holsteiner Verband in Germany, as in fact EVERY Verband in Germany, is deperately seeking good TB stallions (mares for the Trakehners) to infuse. Not to create the next Ladykiller - he is indeed not needed anymore because we’re past the point of “remodeling” a breed. But the C,L,M TB blood will be no good in 20 years if you don’t maintain a certain genetic background for it to work on. The problem is with identifying these stallions - they have considerbly less chances than Ladykiller did in his day, yet are measured by how many sport horses they procuce, which Ladykiller directly never was (you’d be surprised). Sheer numers alone tell you that they cannot be compared with a Cassini if they don’t gret the mares and number of mares as a Cassini. Since that will never happen … tough luck. It is just so much more difficult to find the next big star. It will take a decade for a new Heraldik (and he was not the sire of numerous 1.60m horses either, his value lies elsewhere).
Favoritas was a chance that was missed, Bonapate, despite the fact that his stallion line did create a new family (stallion line) in Holstein, is overlooked, Esteban didn’t hold up what he promised, Ibisco is phenotypically more a dressage horse and so are his offspring (I’ve seen them), Fragonard xx etc just breed way too little numbers to ever matter.
The TB cannot win this battle. Yet at the same time, WB breeders would be ill-advised to think that they can continue to maintain Ladykiller’s and Cottage’s Son’s impact by just crossing back to them over and over again. The Holsteiner breed as it is is genetically very close and that is already causing issues. Not short term, but longterm. Fixing this will be a monumental task.
Now please carry on …[/QUOTE]
Maren , you are exactly right. It is a big problem right now and every studbook is searching for a good TB stallion but they’re just simply not there. With their high croups and low set necks they are incapable of producing sporthorses.
As far as the linebreeding goes…you are correct here as well. It had to be done as there was no TB stallion to breed to. It will not work forever and as you say will eventually cause a big problem if they don’t figure out something.
Right now though…Horses like Cornado with Ehning have come forth as examples of the hybrid horses that are super !
[QUOTE=Manni01;7621499]
Now my thoughts about it:). Thank you Maren for the nice words about Bonaparte:) he is lovely and let’s hope that he gets some more chances in Celle than he did in Holstein
My thoughts about breeding… There are breeders who think in Generations and Breeders who breed for the market… IMO very sadly most breeders breed for the market and just take what some knowledgeable breeders of the past left them…
Which type of breeder will actually breed for the future is not really known yet… We will know in some years… There are so many stallions of my childhood with a high reputation at that time who are gone… Almost forgotten… Maybe bayhawk is right with his idea simply going the easy way, maybe some of the people who go the harder way against the mainstream will be right… I think we simply don’t know right now…
But I think you should keep in mind, using data from the past will give you not 100 % guarantee for the future[/QUOTE]
Good post. The data from the past is the problem you see. Everyone hangs their hat on what used to be…this TB did this and this TB did that. Even in Holstein…Ladykiller ,Cottage Son , Marlon etc…came along at the RIGHT time in the mare developement.
Today…they are not needed as the horses have evolved without them.
The question is…how long can these wonderful hybrid horses that all studbooks have today…last ?
Holstein has been trying like hell to find another good outside stallion. Jayadeva de Macinac , Hermes d" Authieux now Idagio de Talma and all of the many TB Stallions used.
Most Studbooks in Europe follow Holstein’s lead with this but I would say they better start searching themselves as Holstein is really struggling to find one.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7621306]
BTW, Lauries Crusador is the sire of a horse competing in the Luhmuhlen 4* this weekend.[/QUOTE]
And here are LC’s breeding values: http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=9aa946767222b0920e5f2c390934ade6&keyPFID=062413085&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan
His offspring are 1.5 standard deviations below the mean for jumping.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621515]
Good post. The data from the past is the problem you see. Everyone hangs their hat on what used to be…this TB did this and this TB did that. Even in Holstein…Ladykiller ,Cottage Son , Marlon etc…came along at the RIGHT time in the mare developement.
Today…they are not needed as the horses have evolved without them.
The question is…how long can these wonderful hybrid horses that all studbooks have today…last ?
Holstein has been trying like hell to find another good outside stallion. Jayadeva de Macinac , Hermes d" Authieux now Idagio de Talma and all of the many TB Stallions used.
Most Studbooks in Europe follow Holstein’s lead with this but I would say they better start searching themselves as Holstein is really struggling to find one.[/QUOTE]
I don’t really think everybody is following Holstein :). And I wasn’t focussing on TBs for data from the past:). This is valid for ALL horses…
And I’m also a firm believer in bringing in fresh blood. And I also believe more in performance than in Show results or stallion approvals
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7621516]
And here are LC’s breeding values: http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=9aa946767222b0920e5f2c390934ade6&keyPFID=062413085&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan
His offspring are 1.5 standard deviations below the mean for jumping.[/QUOTE]
Everybody knows that Laurie’s Crusader is mainly a dressage sire. How much does eventing factor into breeding values for jumping?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621495]
1.3 million TB foals born since 1978… an average of 36,111 born each and every year…yet basically nothing !
And you TB jihadists maintain they are good for breeding sporhorses ?[/QUOTE]
We are not “TB jihadists”. We are fans of the breed and type. You, however, sound very much like a TB hater. What are you even doing on this thread?
Clearly TBs are good for breeding sport horses. Look at how much they still excel in eventing, even with a format geared to warmbloods. Look at the performance record of the offspring of A Fine Romance, and all of the other TBs and TB crosses listed on this thread.
[QUOTE=Manni01;7621524]
I don’t really think everybody is following Holstein :). And I wasn’t focussing on TBs for data from the past:). This is valid for ALL horses…
And I’m also a firm believer in bringing in fresh blood. And I also believe more in performance than in Show results or stallion approvals[/QUOTE]
Yes, historically the other books have used the Landgrafs , Lords , Corde la bryeres that Holstein developed…that’s all I’m saying. No one is having success at the moment.
I believe in fresh blood as well.
Stallion approvals will continue to happen in the books that are trying to maintain a breed specific type…
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7621527]
We are not “TB jihadists”. We are fans of the breed and type. You, however, sound very much like a TB hater. What are you even doing on this thread?
Clearly TBs are good for breeding sport horses. Look at how much they still excel in eventing, even with a format geared to warmbloods. Look at the performance record of the offspring of A Fine Romance, and all of the other TBs and TB crosses listed on this thread.[/QUOTE]
1.3 million tb foals born since 1978…36,111 each and ever year…yet next to nothing. Please don’t continue to tell us how good they are as sporhorses.
The vast majority of those horses are bred for RACING. But hey, go ahead and discount all of the examples given, and the TBs who are currently excelling in sports other than racing. I have to warn you though, it doesn’t make you look good.
Seriously, why don’t you go away. You’re not adding anything to this thread but snark, and not even well thought out snark at that.
