TB kills the jump?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7621566]
The vast majority of those horses are bred for RACING. But hey, go ahead and discount all of the examples given, and the TBs who are currently excelling in sports other than racing. I have to warn you though, it doesn’t make you look good.

Seriously, why don’t you go away. You’re not adding anything to this thread but snark, and not even well thought out snark at that.[/QUOTE]

Ah HA ! Now you say it…bred for RACING…not sporthorses.

This might explain why you have so few. This would also explain why you should probably quit touting them as such so much .

[omare]

My mother still has a full throughbred stallion out of a full sister to TOC from a danzig line stallion. But he is unproven and never been bred and she is 88 and ran out of capital a long time ago to make a horse (nor do I have any more to supplement hers.) His neck is put on correctly and he is a great mover, but he toes out a little (nature vs nuture as his mom was 100 correct) and is light boned but beautilful. But maybe I should rethink the next few years and find the right date for him before we all pass over the raiinbow bridge.

[Scaramouch]

You all realize that there’s no point whatsoever in arguing with someone who thinks that only Grand Prix showjumpers are sporthorses? Because galloping for 4-5 miles over 30+ moderately large solid obstacles is like, a short stirrup class or something. Certainly not an equally valuable sport requiring a rather different animal.

Bayhawk is a classic troll - notice how he was “bored with this” a page ago and jihadists, really the man needs a dictionary and a lesson on unnecessary use of inflammatory diction. Not to mention that he’s the one vociferously proclaiming modern TBs to be garbage while no one is actually attacking his chosen breed.

I would add that many TBs aren’t actually even bred for racing. They’re bred to be sold for seven figures at auction as yearlings, which is a supreme disservice to the breed. Does that mean that there isn’t a healthy population of excellent jumping horses in that 1.3 million? Of course not.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621599]
Ah HA ! Now you say it…bred for RACING…not sporthorses.

This might explain why you have so few. This would also explain why you should probably quit touting them as such so much .[/QUOTE]
You oversee something really important in your arguments… Breeding in the past was achieved by visions of people (breeders). Some people had an idea and did it. Surely there were people like you at that time who said “this is not going to be successful”…
Breeding lives from a pool of different ideas. Some will work out and some won’t. And maybe even combing different visions will bring the success:)
But usually prejudice and narrow minds will not suceed in the long run…
I know that money is ruling breeding nowadays but I also know that it didn’t do it when the foundations of today’s success were laid… So we will see in the future whether money will bring more success… I think it’s dangerous… And I’m not sure about its usefulness for the genetics.

[Willesdon]

This whole string seems to focus on German breeding. Hand in Glove is an interesting stallion, selected by Bernard Le Courtois to stand at his stud Haras de Brullemail http://www.brullemail.com/ to breed French Sport Horses - because this horse raced, did top level dressage and top level show jumping and proved to be a top level stallion too.

http://futuresporthorses.co.uk/stallions/hand-in-glove-xx/
http://www.precihorses.com/horses/hand-in-glove.html

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I posted to give an example of what can happen when you use a TB mare bred to race, not for sport. How many times and at what expense was I to repeat a breeding that went back and pulled up the Mr. Prospector/ND genes of the grandsire that made the end product look like a QH? How many generations would it take to breed that genetic dice roll out? Even if it did not show up right away, what about the F2 generation? Holstein added the TB years ago for refinement and patiently worked with what it did and did not do for them.

I gave one example because it was mine to give, my story. There are others but those stories are not mine to relate.

Since the OP started with, “the TB kills the jump,” one would assume high level GP jumping. Eventers and steeplechasers exhibit other characteristics including speed and jump in that format. But I would also remind that Connemara crosses have had success there as well as other breeds. I remember some Appaloosa’s that tore the courses up at a regional level. So non-TB success stories are there just as well and just as frequently as TB GP jumpers.

TB’s I admire for the handyman they are, racing, polo, etc. But jump specialists they are not and I think that is where the original question lies.

If you look for consistent product, it would not be a TB mare base because they are only bred for consistent results on the race track.

One could also say that TB’s are nothing more than local mares bred to very select Arabian/Barb/Turk stallions, albeit a bit further back. And it’s been postulated that the TB needs an infusion of something, but it’s a closed book. If the WB people cannot find the right kind of TB anymore, it’s because that closed book and sales/ baby talent-oriented thinking has created what it has.

But I’ve been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and wore it out, and I’d rather people know the other side of the TB argument in WB breeding, because it just isn’t that easy to use the TB mare base in this country and get the same results. People really, really need to know that the TB isn’t the be-all/end-all animal, unless it’s just the right one. Getting hard to find that gem any more. Study how, who, and on what mares the TB’s of the past were used in Holstein. Ask the people knowledgeable about the failures, culling the results, and what to cross on next. This thread could be a gold mine of information. Whether you want to buy into it or not is up to you. I would lament the loss of a “nugget” of wisdom just because some disagree.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Bayhawk, if the right TB cannot be found, what are they looking for in other breeds that might work?

What about a Shagya cross? Wasn’t Ramzes a TB with Shagya? Would they have to work with a Shagya cross or could the right Shagya perhaps work?

[Bachus]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621550]
Yes, historically the other books have used the Landgrafs , Lords , Corde la bryeres that Holstein developed…that’s all I’m saying. No one is having success at the moment.

I believe in fresh blood as well.

Stallion approvals will continue to happen in the books that are trying to maintain a breed specific type…[/QUOTE]

The stallion approvals will change in format in the next years, the focus will be heading more and more to stallions in sport. Further I am not sure what you mean with the first part but every studbook had their own great stallions. Kolibri is named the Capitol I from the south of Germany. Pilot and Gotthard were very important for the development for several German Studbooks. Westfalen is at the moment above Holstein in the rankings.

The Holsteiner Verband is trying to approve every year a TB, this can happen also in januar or april. In Haselau we have a very special Fragonard xx filly, because the breeder believes that xx blood will always stay important for the Holsteiner breed. The breeders use Lavall I as a different option then for using a direct TB.

Also I know breeders in Holstein who bought some TB mares to start up an experiment how that will work. Also because the motherline of Mylord Carthago traces back to a TB x AA motherline . In his motherline are mares that produced steeplechasers and jumpers.

I hope there will be some breeders from the US or Canada or other countries coming to Holstein to meet some of the best 3 years old mares we have at the moment and to see some fine young showjumping horses!!

[vineyridge]

Yes, and there used to be or still is a long interview with Bernard Courtois on the Horse Magazine website where he talks about having to fight exactly Bayhawk’s attitude with the SF breeding establishment, which was entirely focused on BLUPs and modern livestock breeding tools. And the French still don’t like his horses apparently.

For those of you who are interested in classic TB Breeding in the US, there is or well be an Anne Peters article about Buckpasser’s influence in the Breeding section of The Blood Horse. It came in an email yesterday and the site is always slower than the email.

Catsdorule, how long do you think it took the WB breeders to get rid of their throwbacks? It takes persistence, patience, and generations to set type.

[QUOTE=Willesdon;7621652]
This whole string seems to focus on German breeding. Hand in Glove is an interesting stallion, selected by Bernard Le Courtois to stand at his stud Haras de Brullemail http://www.brullemail.com/ to breed French Sport Horses - because this horse raced, did top level dressage and top level show jumping and proved to be a top level stallion too.

http://futuresporthorses.co.uk/stallions/hand-in-glove-xx/
http://www.precihorses.com/horses/hand-in-glove.html[/QUOTE]

[Jackie_Cochran]

For the idea that breeders just have to line-breed the TBs already in the pedigree on the basis of the five Holsteiner mares lines with the big jump–eventually the line-breeding will weaken your lines. Fortunately for this breed there is a culling mechanism for stallions, but even then as the line-breeding gets more extensive the foals often (not always) tend to start off weaker than the less line-bred groups.

I have seen this in the Arabian Davenport group (Al Khamsa). Marvelous horses but many of the young foals I’ve seen look a lot weaker than normal Arabians. This group has been closed to outside blood for over 100 years, based on a group of about 19 horses, has two surviving sire lines and 4 surviving mare lines, one which may have died out recently. If I could afford to breed Davenports I’d personally probably would outcross carefully, at least within the Al Khamsa group, knowing that I probably would not like the first few generations as much as I adore the pure Davenports.

Eventually you WILL need fresh hot-blood genes. Extensive line-breeding can be a great way to emphasize the strengths of the favored ancestor/s, BUT it can also concentrate those ancestor’s genetic weaknesses and eventually it will show in your breeding group. I don’t totally care if these hot-blood genes are from TBs (though this is the quickest way to get what you want), you can go to Shagya, Arab, Barb or Akhel Teke/other Turkoman breeds, and except for possibly the Shagya NONE of these other hot-blood breeds have the proven jumping ability of TBs. TBs probably need outcross blood too by now, however they are just as stubborn as Arabian breeders on the purity of the breed.

The old wisdom I’ve heard is only three generations in, then to prevent problems you have to bring in outside blood. The first generation and maybe the second generation horses resulting from this outside blood may not be exactly what you want. They aren’t really supposed to totally resemble what you are breeding. Outside blood is to bring in fresh dominant genes that successfully mask the delitrious recessive genes that extensive line-breeding/in-breeding concentrate within the breeding group. The best mare lines of the breeding group will produce better lines from the outcross, the other mare lines might be good horses but are candidates for heavier culling. The stud books desperately trying to find out-cross blood are trying to improve the BREED, and the wiser ones know that doing so takes time.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7621525]
Everybody knows that Laurie’s Crusader is mainly a dressage sire. How much does eventing factor into breeding values for jumping?[/QUOTE]

How much does being used on dressage bred mares for the vast majority of foals affect the breeding index?

It’s been my opinion for years that Lauries Crusador OUGHT to have been a very good event sire, but most breeders in Germany aren’t interested in purpose breeding for eventing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7621718]
Bayhawk, if the right TB cannot be found, what are they looking for in other breeds that might work?

What about a Shagya cross? Wasn’t Ramzes a TB with Shagya? Would they have to work with a Shagya cross or could the right Shagya perhaps work?[/QUOTE]

Yes ,they tried with Bajar- Bachus -Baldini etc but the breeders lost interest even though that sire line produced Belladonna with a Calido mare.

They keep trying…one day they will figure it out…they always have before.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7621782]
The stallion approvals will change in format in the next years, the focus will be heading more and more to stallions in sport. Further I am not sure what you mean with the first part but every studbook had their own great stallions. Kolibri is named the Capitol I from the south of Germany. Pilot and Gotthard were very important for the development for several German Studbooks. Westfalen is at the moment above Holstein in the rankings.

The Holsteiner Verband is trying to approve every year a TB, this can happen also in januar or april. In Haselau we have a very special Fragonard xx filly, because the breeder believes that xx blood will always stay important for the Holsteiner breed. The breeders use Lavall I as a different option then for using a direct TB.

Also I know breeders in Holstein who bought some TB mares to start up an experiment how that will work. Also because the motherline of Mylord Carthago traces back to a TB x AA motherline . In his motherline are mares that produced steeplechasers and jumpers.

I hope there will be some breeders from the US or Canada or other countries coming to Holstein to meet some of the best 3 years old mares we have at the moment and to see some fine young showjumping horses!![/QUOTE]

Adrianna , I only meant that Holstein had always had top stallions with fresh blood that other books were glad to use. Of course they had success in developing their own as well.

Otto is a very good breeder and a breeder for the breed. Fragonard xx was lucky to get Otto’s States Premium Contender / Landgraf mare . Not many other breeders have been willing to use a TB Stallion today. There were only about 30 born in Holstein last year.

I am glad he did…this filly looks very good !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7621845]
For the idea that breeders just have to line-breed the TBs already in the pedigree on the basis of the five Holsteiner mares lines with the big jump–eventually the line-breeding will weaken your lines. Fortunately for this breed there is a culling mechanism for stallions, but even then as the line-breeding gets more extensive the foals often (not always) tend to start off weaker than the less line-bred groups.

I have seen this in the Arabian Davenport group (Al Khamsa). Marvelous horses but many of the young foals I’ve seen look a lot weaker than normal Arabians. This group has been closed to outside blood for over 100 years, based on a group of about 19 horses, has two surviving sire lines and 4 surviving mare lines, one which may have died out recently. If I could afford to breed Davenports I’d personally probably would outcross carefully, at least within the Al Khamsa group, knowing that I probably would not like the first few generations as much as I adore the pure Davenports.

Eventually you WILL need fresh hot-blood genes. Extensive line-breeding can be a great way to emphasize the strengths of the favored ancestor/s, BUT it can also concentrate those ancestor’s genetic weaknesses and eventually it will show in your breeding group. I don’t totally care if these hot-blood genes are from TBs (though this is the quickest way to get what you want), you can go to Shagya, Arab, Barb or Akhel Teke/other Turkoman breeds, and except for possibly the Shagya NONE of these other hot-blood breeds have the proven jumping ability of TBs. TBs probably need outcross blood too by now, however they are just as stubborn as Arabian breeders on the purity of the breed.

The old wisdom I’ve heard is only three generations in, then to prevent problems you have to bring in outside blood. The first generation and maybe the second generation horses resulting from this outside blood may not be exactly what you want. They aren’t really supposed to totally resemble what you are breeding. Outside blood is to bring in fresh dominant genes that successfully mask the delitrious recessive genes that extensive line-breeding/in-breeding concentrate within the breeding group. The best mare lines of the breeding group will produce better lines from the outcross, the other mare lines might be good horses but are candidates for heavier culling. The stud books desperately trying to find out-cross blood are trying to improve the BREED, and the wiser ones know that doing so takes time.[/QUOTE]

I never said that linebreeding was all they had to do. That’s what they have been doing for the last many years and to a huge degree of success. They had no choice really as they haven’t found an outside stallion , TB or otherwise, to step up to the plate.

I agree it won’t last…they will need to find hybrid vigor soon.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621916]
Adrianna , I only meant that Holstein had always had top stallions with fresh blood that other books were glad to use. Of course they had success in developing their own as well.

Otto is a very good breeder and a breeder for the breed. Fragonard xx was lucky to get Otto’s States Premium Contender / Landgraf mare . Not many other breeders have been willing to use a TB Stallion today. There were only about 30 born in Holstein last year.

I am glad he did…this filly looks very good ![/QUOTE]

Is this the filly you showed me? If so, she is a very nice filly!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Noms;7621929]
Is this the filly you showed me? If so, she is a very nice filly![/QUOTE]

Yes Linda. Same one. Nice foal.

[adelmo95]

This is slightly off topic as it doesn’t relate to breeding specifically however I had to add it. For those commenting on how not nearly as many thoroughbreds are seen at the upper levels of jumping now as they were in the past I have a slightly different theory on this. I think in North America a lot of the thoroughbreds that would have the conformation, movement etc to succeed at the higher levels of jumping are now getting snapped up by the chuckwagon drivers. These drivers are willing to pay a lot more for a quality prospect than a jumper rider looking at OTTB prospects.

It always amazes me when I go watch chuckwagon racing just how many horses they have that are built uphill, with a nice neck set, powerful hind end, and excellent gaits. I think a lot of us are slightly biased by visions of the poorly conformed thoroughbred that gets run around the 3’ jumper course completely inverted, and slightly out of control that we forget what they can look like.

That being said it takes a special type of rider to retrain an off the track thoroughbred vs. starting from scratch with a purpose bred warmblood as it is more of a challenge. I have to admit that after having done both I currently own a 3 year old RPSI gelding who is from Holsteiner lines top and bottom as I prefer to start from scratch rather than retrain.

It also takes a special type of breeder to want to breed thoroughbreds for sport: financially it would make more sense to want to breed to produce a 7 figure yearling at a thoroughbred sale than to shoot for producing an upper level jumper prospect.

So although lots of thoroughbreds are produced each year the odds are stacked against them in terms of becoming an upper level jumper.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Noms;7621929]
Is this the filly you showed me? If so, she is a very nice filly![/QUOTE]

Yes Linda. Same one…Nice filly for sure !

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Vineyridge said:

Catsdorule, how long do you think it took the WB breeders to get rid of their throwbacks? It takes persistence, patience, and generations to set type.

Well, I did imply in how many generations would that Mr.P/ND get bred out? The point here is perhaps, pedigree over type. The mare was a good type- but the background had that in it, and sure enough, it popped up. It takes a while to set type, but in the Holstein case, they had the mare base and very carefully selected TB stallions.

As stated in one of the articles about the Holsteiner I linked to in a previous post, they began to lose options with the prevalence of Northern Dancer in TB lines. It’s not easy to find TB’s now without Mr. P or ND. As I learned, because I learned a lot about those lines afterward (And should have before hand), there are some things better avoided. A U.S. breeder beginning with a TB mare has a long, long road ahead, even if they could find type with pedigree to avoid a dice roll. The consistency is not there. The occasional gem, sure. That rabbit does pop out of the hat once in a while.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=adelmo95;7621948]
This is slightly off topic as it doesn’t relate to breeding specifically however I had to add it. For those commenting on how not nearly as many thoroughbreds are seen at the upper levels of jumping now as they were in the past I have a slightly different theory on this. I think in North America a lot of the thoroughbreds that would have the conformation, movement etc to succeed at the higher levels of jumping are now getting snapped up by the chuckwagon drivers. These drivers are willing to pay a lot more for a quality prospect than a jumper rider looking at OTTB prospects.

It always amazes me when I go watch chuckwagon racing just how many horses they have that are built uphill, with a nice neck set, powerful hind end, and excellent gaits. I think a lot of us are slightly biased by visions of the poorly conformed thoroughbred that gets run around the 3’ jumper course completely inverted, and slightly out of control that we forget what they can look like.

That being said it takes a special type of rider to retrain an off the track thoroughbred vs. starting from scratch with a purpose bred warmblood as it is more of a challenge. I have to admit that after having done both I currently own a 3 year old RPSI gelding who is from Holsteiner lines top and bottom as I prefer to start from scratch rather than retrain.

It also takes a special type of breeder to want to breed thoroughbreds for sport: financially it would make more sense to want to breed to produce a 7 figure yearling at a thoroughbred sale than to shoot for producing an upper level jumper prospect.

So although lots of thoroughbreds are produced each year the odds are stacked against them in terms of becoming an upper level jumper.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of your post. Well thought out and well stated. However , I think the odds are stacked against them because they are bred to race…not jump.

The majority don’t have the proper skeletal structure to be able to compete at the higher levels.