TB kills the jump?

[Bachus]

30 foals by a direct TB is not so bad because last year their were less then 3000 foals born. Some stallions are lucky if they get 15 mares.

The Holsteiner Verband has 42 stallions that are owned by the Verband and that are alive. Then they offer frozen semen from 13 stallions, some of them are not alive anymore.

From all of these stallions are Casall, Clarimo (outside Holstein mostly) and Connor the most wanted stallions. Why??? These are the stallions that people know as soon as you go outside Holstein. Because it is getting more difficult to get your foal to be sold breeders are trying to use the stallions that are known. The reason why nobody is using the B line is because nobody outside Holstein is familiar with the B line. The breeder from Camiros/Corofino I and II used Boritas.
And more breeders who are not breeding for the market are having the gut’s to use a stallion that can become important for their line and not just important for the average breeder world wide. In 10 years the Holsteiner book lost 1000 foals that is 25 % from the Holsteiner population.

I posted a video from Chin Champ on my Facebook wall and received messages for more information. He is a fantastic stallion!!

[Elles]

No Holsteiner to be seen in this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XH6o1p5VE
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/290981
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486999&blood=10&quota=
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10jtiq_olala-de-buissy-bourg-en-bresse-2013-06-02-grand-prix-csi4-1-60-m_sport

[Elles]

No Holsteiner to be seen in this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XH6o1p5VE
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/290981
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486999&blood=10&quota=
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10jtiq_olala-de-buissy-bourg-en-bresse-2013-06-02-grand-prix-csi4-1-60-m_sport

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7622018]
30 foals by a direct TB is not so bad because last year their were less then 3000 foals born. Some stallions are lucky if they get 15 mares.

The Holsteiner Verband has 42 stallions that are owned by the Verband and that are alive. Then they offer frozen semen from 13 stallions, some of them are not alive anymore.

From all of these stallions are Casall, Clarimo (outside Holstein mostly) and Connor the most wanted stallions. Why??? These are the stallions that people know as soon as you go outside Holstein. Because it is getting more difficult to get your foal to be sold breeders are trying to use the stallions that are known. The reason why nobody is using the B line is because nobody outside Holstein is familiar with the B line. The breeder from Camiros/Corofino I and II used Boritas.
And more breeders who are not breeding for the market are having the gut’s to use a stallion that can become important for their line and not just important for the average breeder world wide. In 10 years the Holsteiner book lost 1000 foals that is 25 % from the Holsteiner population.

I posted a video from Chin Champ on my Facebook wall and received messages for more information. He is a fantastic stallion!![/QUOTE]

The actual numbers are…2,608 foals born in 2013… 24 by TB fathers. This is less than 1% of the mares and it obviously needs to be more.

Yes…I agree. Last year I had a colt born from Chin Champ / Canturo / Lord . I like him…

Chin Champ is a promising young stallion.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621975]
I agree with most of your post. Well thought out and well stated. However , I think the odds are stacked against them because they are bred to race…not jump.

The majority don’t have the proper skeletal structure to be able to compete at the higher levels.[/QUOTE]

I think this entire interesting and convoluted thread can be boiled down to this one simple point. You hit the nail on the head.

[Foxtrot_s]

Funny you should mention the chuckwaggon race buyers - I’m not sure there are enough of them to make a huge difference. Every so often, though, a horse takes my eye and I never forget them. One was at a racehorse training facility in Alberta and when I enquired abut him, they said he would be sold as a wheel horse for a chuckwaggon team. He was such a big solid fellow, old time look - would have been a great eventer, too bad.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7621718]
Bayhawk, if the right TB cannot be found, what are they looking for in other breeds that might work?

What about a Shagya cross? Wasn’t Ramzes a TB with Shagya? Would they have to work with a Shagya cross or could the right Shagya perhaps work?[/QUOTE]

Still waiting for an answer to this. What other options besides TB would be considered for an outcross? Also, what characteristics would the “right” TB have? Please be as specific as possible, not just using it as another opportunity to bash today’s TBs. What would Holsteiner breeders like to see as an alternative to repeated linebreeding?

Believe it or not, there are some TB breeders that are focusing on sport horses, not race horses.

Thanks.

[D_BaldStockings]

Australian TB; complete outcross to Northern Dancer
http://www.gavelhouse.com/au/listings/show/id/2179

The neck on a ND horse
http://www.thanksalotfarm.com/studs.html

more croup high bad necked ND
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10126961
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kitten's+joy&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

[D_BaldStockings]

Skeletal structure?

Pray tell and extrapolate, please.

Since all jumpers look individually different from one another in structure and angles at the upper levels?

[Bachus]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7622053]
The actual numbers are…2,608 foals born in 2013… 24 by TB fathers. This is less than 1% of the mares and it obviously needs to be more.

Yes…I agree. Last year I had a colt born from Chin Champ / Canturo / Lord . I like him…

Chin Champ is a promising young stallion.[/QUOTE]

For last year 2995 foals are registered with the Holsteiner Verband. I had to check it some weeks ago because of an article.

[Elles]

http://www.oldecountryfarm.com/Mares.html
http://www.oldecountryfarm.com/sitebuilder/images/Last-Mystic-Trot-339x256.jpg

LAST MYSTIC XX

By Mystic II out of Jator By Noble Jay

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jator

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7622199]
For last year 2995 foals are registered with the Holsteiner Verband. I had to check it some weeks ago because of an article.[/QUOTE]

November 2013 Pferd & Sport had the year end foal results printed in that edition. Doesn’t really matter…our numbers are close enough to each other to get the general idea.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7622179]
Still waiting for an answer to this. What other options besides TB would be considered for an outcross? Also, what characteristics would the “right” TB have? Please be as specific as possible, not just using it as another opportunity to bash today’s TBs. What would Holsteiner breeders like to see as an alternative to repeated linebreeding?

Believe it or not, there are some TB breeders that are focusing on sport horses, not race horses.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I already commented above. The Bajar , Bachus ,Baldini line was an example. Of course they have tried Quidam de Revel with some success. They have tried Hermes D’ Authieux , Jayadeva de Macinac and now they have Adagio de Talma. Mylord Carthago is getting some mares…they are trying many outside Stallions along with the TB Stallions.

I don’t take every oppurtunity to bash TB’s. I happen to respect them. I just don’t respect their connections constantly stating how awesome they are in sport when they really aren’t there.

The horses for todays showjumping must have an absolute top character and work ethic. They must have enough scope but not too much. They must be catlike in their reflexes and very elastic up thru the topline.

Study horses like Casall , Cornado , Chiara , Carinjo , Lacrimoso etc. I just named these off the top of my head that are good examples. There are many other horses from different books that show the same characteristics.

[Elles]

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/02/quidam-de-revel-has-passed/
In an article in HORSE INTERNATIONAL (No 1 – 2003), Velin told the journalist, Pernille Linder Velander: “I am a Thoroughbred person. Quidam is the kind of horse that appeals to me. He is a perfect beauty. If you compare him to the legendary Northern Dancer, you could hardly tell who is who. They could be twins.”

[bluedapple]

[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7576636]
I think the TB’s biggest limitation these days is they aren’t fashionable. Very few people try to find and produce TBs as GP jumpers, and that’s why you don’t see many doing the job. In the days when TBs were a staple, they excelled.[/QUOTE]

100% agree! They are plenty fancy and athletic enough. I love TB’s/ Only flaw, WBs are an easier ride

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;7622272]
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/02/quidam-de-revel-has-passed/
In an article in HORSE INTERNATIONAL (No 1 – 2003), Velin told the journalist, Pernille Linder Velander: “I am a Thoroughbred person. Quidam is the kind of horse that appeals to me. He is a perfect beauty. If you compare him to the legendary Northern Dancer, you could hardly tell who is who. They could be twins.”[/QUOTE]

But they are not the same.
Quidam de Revel won an Olympic medal…Northern Dancer did not.
QDR is ranked 17th in the world as a jumper sire. ND was never ranked.
QDR is a SF Stallion…ND was a TB Stallion.
They look absolutely nothing alike because they are nothing alike.

You have really drank the kool-aid Elles.

[bluedapple]

the CANTER

How would you guy compare the canter in the TB/WB. In hunterland most riders sit in the saddle around a course to hold their WBs together, whereas back in the TB days we all jumped around out of the saddle. Just wondering thoughts. I think they have very distinct canters.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7622263]
I already commented above. The Bajar , Bachus ,Baldini line was an example. Of course they have tried Quidam de Revel with some success. They have tried Hermes D’ Authieux , Jayadeva de Macinac and now they have Adagio de Talma. Mylord Carthago is getting some mares…they are trying many outside Stallions along with the TB Stallions.

I don’t take every oppurtunity to bash TB’s. I happen to respect them. I just don’t respect their connections constantly stating how awesome they are in sport when they really aren’t there.

The horses for todays showjumping must have an absolute top character and work ethic. They must have enough scope but not too much. They must be catlike in their reflexes and very elastic up thru the topline.

Study horses like Casall , Cornado , Chiara , Carinjo , Lacrimoso etc. I just named these off the top of my head that are good examples. There are many other horses from different books that show the same characteristics.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the information. If I’m understanding you, Holsteiner breeders are looking for any stallion (or stallion line) that has the desired characteristics, regardless of breed?

On your list of characteristics, I understand top character, work ethic, catlike reflexes, and elasticity, but I’m confused about “enough scope but not too much.” I would think you’d want a showjumper to have as much scope as possible. What is “too much” scope?

Thx again.

[ladyj79]

Bluedapple, ime that has less to do with a change in horses than in does an evolution in style in the hunter ring as it further distinguishes itself from its fox hunting origins.

[ladyj79]

Zipperfoot, too much scope eats up too much space and time in tight technical jumper courses.