TB kills the jump?

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7621527]
We are not “TB jihadists”. We are fans of the breed and type. You, however, sound very much like a TB hater. What are you even doing on this thread?

Clearly TBs are good for breeding sport horses. Look at how much they still excel in eventing, even with a format geared to warmbloods. Look at the performance record of the offspring of A Fine Romance, and all of the other TBs and TB crosses listed on this thread.[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean to speak for Fred, but don’t toss A Fine Romance in with the pool of current TBs coming off the track that may be trying for a performance career. AFR’s conformation is nothing like the majority of TBs today. I have absolutely no issue with this horse as a sports horse sire. This is one of the many points you continue to miss or deliberately ignore.

Horses that are croup high/downhill, have spindly legs with long sloping pasterns, upside-down necks and questionable soundness don’t make good sport horses, no matter what the breed. They simply can’t jump out of their own way and future soundness is likely to be a problem for a jumping career whether from wear and tear or horrible conformation.

Somewhere in the recent past, people stopped breeding TB sport horses. To continually blame breeders, trainers, customers and riders for filling the gap with a type of horse that is more suited to the job is stupid.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=bluedapple;7622306]
How would you guy compare the canter in the TB/WB. In hunterland most riders sit in the saddle around a course to hold their WBs together, whereas back in the TB days we all jumped around out of the saddle. Just wondering thoughts. I think they have very distinct canters.[/QUOTE]

You’re wrong if you think most hunter riders sit in the saddle around a course to hold their WBs together. A horse that has to “be held together” is not going to be the winner.

I’ll put my horses’ canters up against any TB - they are all WBs. Without a good canter, you don’t win, period. A good mover is a good mover…it doesn’t reflect necessarily on any particular “breed.”

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7622351]
Thanks for the information. If I’m understanding you, Holsteiner breeders are looking for any stallion (or stallion line) that has the desired characteristics, regardless of breed?

On your list of characteristics, I understand top character, work ethic, catlike reflexes, and elasticity, but I’m confused about “enough scope but not too much.” I would think you’d want a showjumper to have as much scope as possible. What is “too much” scope?

Thx again.[/QUOTE]

Yes any stallions that have sporting qualities…I mean they are not going to bring in a QH to try and breed top jumpers with obviously.

Ladyj79 explained too much scope well…if they have too much scope they wind up being in the air too long and they are therefore way less efficient.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Noms;7622070]
I think this entire interesting and convoluted thread can be boiled down to this one simple point. You hit the nail on the head.[/QUOTE]

It’s basic, basic, basic. I’ve been saying it all along. The conformation of today’s TB is a jump killer (the basic notion that started this thread). The conformation issue in no way disparages the TB…for whatever reason, TB breeders have decided that this is desirable conformation for racing. It is NOT desirable conformation for jumpers. If TB advocates on this thread want to see a return of the TB to the jumper ring, then start breeding horses with the conformation to do the job.

[kinscem]

There are plenty of contemporary well bread TBs, uphill and with great jumping form and fast and catty as opposed to WBs.
The problem is TBs are sensitive horses they require fine riding, they are quick to turn. There are not enough good riders to take advantage of this.
Just look at the young/beginning H/J riders pool - they care more about what kind of belt they are wearing to hold up their breeches than how they approach an oxer…

[ladyj79]

But “too talented” (which i’ve already addressed) would mean we’d see fewer tbs at the lower level with your “awful juniors” and more tbs at the top with talented professionals. This is the opposite of what we see.

[Manni01]

Well I did watch the Pentathlon Worldcup finals last weekend and one discipline is jumping… It’s not extremely high( looked to me like 1st level in Germany , so maybe around 3". But the horses have to deal with 6 different riders and some of them are not totally strong riders… So sensitive horses will shut down if the rider is behind the movement on every jump. Some horses jumped like rabbits because of that. There was a high percentage of Ottbs and TBs participating and IMO they did an awesome job. There were especially two younger Ottbs which I would have snatched up in a heartbeat:). They did not look unsuitable for higher levels at all… Please don’t forget that also the right training and management is important for higher levels… Not only the horses…

[SEPowell]

@Bayhawk;7621504

Maren , you are exactly right. It is a big problem right now and every studbook is searching for a good TB stallion but they’re just simply not there. With their high croups and low set necks they are incapable of producing sporthorses.

Where are they looking and only seeing high croups and low neck sets?

Do you think steeplechase horses have high croups and low necks? Of course they don’t. You’re in a state with many timber horses, learn about their breeding and then look around the east coast and you’ll find the type of tb stallion you need. They’re out there. Look for AP Indy lines, Roberto lines (I would have loved to see Rock Hard Ten steeplechase!), Nijinsky… It’s not rocket science to identify the type.

Anyway, this thread is very interesting until you start talking about thoroughbreds and then I’m forced into a new reality which has nothing to do with the thoroughbreds that exist in this one.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7622393]

Horses that are croup high/downhill, have spindly legs with long sloping pasterns, upside-down necks and questionable soundness don’t make good sport horses, no matter what the breed. They simply can’t jump out of their own way and future soundness is likely to be a problem for a jumping career whether from wear and tear or horrible conformation.[/QUOTE]

Where do you see thoroughbreds like this? Nobody breeds thoroughbreds like this on purpose.

[beowulf]

I meet just as many low-set necked, high crouped, sausage-barreled WBs as I do TBs… if not more.

I don’t see a lot of monstrous TBs out there with appalling conformation. I see some low-set neck TBs, but for the most part, they are well put together.

There is ugly conformation in every breed. I don’t see a point in saying all TBs have low set necks, spindly legs, and high croups - it is just as blasphemous as saying all WBs are long-backed, straight-legged, camped out nutjobs.

FWIW, a successful on-track TB has entirely different conformation than the OTTB (as well as a chase-bred TB or sport-bred TB)- and mostly, sport-prospect hunters look at the OTTBs, who usually are not ugly conformation trainwrecks.

It sounds like Go Fish is looking at listings of racehorses where they are (usually) unfavorably shod and have improper muscling for english/sport disciplines. They have heavy underneck muscling from pulling against the jockey, have long toes and underun heels for racing breakover which makes their pasterns appear inordinately long, and a dropped croup that appears ‘high’ from body soreness and SI changes. All of which are entirely cosmetic (save for the SI changes, which happens in most heavy-work loads). These horses look like entirely different animals once shod for their appropriate sport discipline and remuscled.

[vineyridge]

IMO, there is often a difference between the TB and the WB in the gallop on XC in eventing. Some, certainly not all WBs and some but rarely TBs, pound the ground at the gallop with too much up and down. Using energy to go up and down is tiring and likely to use up whatever stamina the horse has too soon over a long XC. I was watching a particular horse at this year’s Rolex because I like the breeding, a WB from a very respected registry, and he did pound the ground and wasn’t able to finish the 4* XC. But he would be a very nice CIC horse, and could probably get through a 3*.

The classic definition of TB movement is flat with little knee action, almost gliding; the classic WB is bred and inspected for knee action, especially for dressage which wants flashy, toe flipping gaits. IMO, there is a real disconnect in today’s eventing between the gaits that garner good dressage scores and the way of going for efficient XC.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7622835]
IMO, there is often a difference between the TB and the WB in the gallop on XC in eventing. Some, certainly not all WBs and some but rarely TBs, pound the ground at the gallop with too much up and down. Using energy to go up and down is tiring and likely to use up whatever stamina the horse has too soon over a long XC. I was watching a particular horse at this year’s Rolex because I like the breeding, a WB from a very respected registry, and he did pound the ground and wasn’t able to finish the 4* XC. But he would be a very nice CIC horse, and could probably get through a 3*.

The classic definition of TB movement is flat with little knee action, almost gliding; the classic WB is bred and inspected for knee action, especially for dressage which wants flashy, toe flipping gaits. IMO, there is a real disconnect in today’s eventing between the gaits that garner good dressage scores and the way of going for efficient XC.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree - TBs are far more efficient in terms of galloping movement.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7622842]
I completely agree - TBs are far more efficient in terms of galloping movement.[/QUOTE]

And yet they’ve had their ass handed to them in the last several Olympics.

[ladyj79]

The change in format and increased emphasis on dressage has certainly curtailed what was near total dominance of tbs in eventing, but god knows you still need a horse with a good deal of blood to make it through. But then, most modern warmbloods have a good percentage of blood, as well as movement for dressage, hence their successes in modern eventing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7622866]
The change in format and increased emphasis on dressage has certainly curtailed what was near total dominance of tbs in eventing, but god knows you still need a horse with a good deal of blood to make it through. But then, most modern warmbloods have a good percentage of blood, as well as movement for dressage, hence their successes in modern eventing.[/QUOTE]

Yes and they need good stadium as well. I was appalled at the effort in the last Olympics by our team. After they went stadium…looked like a tornado went thru there were so many rails down.

[vineyridge]

Remember, Bayhawk, that you are the one who pointed out so vigorously that the Olympics are not real 4*s.

And it wasn’t just our team that had sj failures. We only had two riders make it through to sj, and KOC went double clear twice. Did you forget that?
Poor Ingrid Klimke went from tied for 1st after XC to 25th with her sj.

I just looked it up in the FEI database.

[Elles]

A TB:
http://binaryapi.ap.org/70b6ee3ca7ae44cfbf6e40da7458a047/940x.jpg

[Elles]

By the way, it is this horse: http://www.preakness.com/news-center/latest-news/california-chrome-gets-aquainted-pimlico-track

[tom]

“Too much scope”? That’s a new one.

I think some are confusing “too much scope” with a horse being too careful, and over-jumping fences.

I do not think one could find many top riders who would complain that a horse has too much scope. Too careful, yes.

[Elles]

Quote Originally Posted by Elles:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/201...el-has-passed/
In an article in HORSE INTERNATIONAL (No 1 – 2003), Velin told the journalist, Pernille Linder Velander: “I am a Thoroughbred person. Quidam is the kind of horse that appeals to me. He is a perfect beauty. If you compare him to the legendary Northern Dancer, you could hardly tell who is who. They could be twins.”

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7622300]
But they are not the same.
Quidam de Revel won an Olympic medal…Northern Dancer did not.
QDR is ranked 17th in the world as a jumper sire. ND was never ranked.
QDR is a SF Stallion…ND was a TB Stallion.
They look absolutely nothing alike because they are nothing alike.

You have really drank the kool-aid Elles.[/QUOTE]

That is not what I said. You started to talk about the conformation of a TB not being suitable to jump. I quoted the words of Guidam de Revel’s owner.

A picture of Quidam de Revel: http://69.89.31.130/~thehors5/thm/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/quidamCONF.jpg