[QUOTE=tom;7623003]
“Too much scope”? That’s a new one.
I think some are confusing “too much scope” with a horse being too careful, and over-jumping fences.
I do not think one could find many top riders who would complain that a horse has too much scope. Too careful, yes.[/QUOTE]
Thank you! I have been reading this thread with some amusement over the last few days, but this one had me scratching my head.
Elles, I’m confused by the insertion of the pictures of California Chrome. He’s a good racehorse but he’s badly incorrect in front and not what anyone would consider a good mover from a sport horse perspective.
It is because of his neck set. People here say that dat all TB’s have a low set neck. I randomly picked a picture of a TB horse that does not have a horizontal neck.
Pictures I took of El Prado in 2008:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-JG8CAVF8.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-QRLWVKVC.jpg
TB Stallions on the east coast, just one farm
http://www.diamondbfarmpa.com/last_laugh.html
TB Stallions in Canada, just one farm. Look carefully at Musketier’s breeding.
[URL=“http://www.adenastallions.com/stallions/Giant_Gizmo/”]
http://www.adenastallions.com/stallions/Giant_Gizmo/
Many of the stallion owners are willing to breed to nonthoroughbreds, but it must be live cover. The prices are VERY reasonable.
Those are two studs I’ve delt with. There are many others with equally nice horses.
[QUOTE=tom;7623003]
“Too much scope”? That’s a new one.
I think some are confusing “too much scope” with a horse being too careful, and over-jumping fences.
I do not think one could find many top riders who would complain that a horse has too much scope. Too careful, yes.[/QUOTE]
Over jumping the fences / too careful - tomato
too much scope - tomaaato
Depends on who you’re talking to and what verbiage they use…too much time in the air ,too careful and not being efficient is the same meaning.
At the end of the day it’s not desirable.
And I was also referring to the fact that the horses have changed. The immensely huge galloping horse with massive scope from the days of old is no longer needed. The horses need enough scope today but need to be more agile.
And yes…I have heard several riders say horses had too much scope /too careful and it’s very difficult to fix.
Whoever chooses what term…ballooning over the jump is the issue.
I am seeing NO answer about the TB conformations that “kill the jump.”
So I got to thinking.
WB’s have a lot more emphasis on the heighth of action at the trot than TBs, where the low action is greatly preferred. Now the supreme high action horses, the Hackney and the American Saddlebred “use their shoulders” a lot more.
After looking closely at an ASB championship class I noticed that this “using the shoulder” consists of the horse bringing its humerus forward much more than “normal” at the trot (and rack) which apparantly aids the high action. TBs will bring the humerus just as far forward when at the higher speeds of the racing gallop and when reaching over the really high jumps, but the ones who do it over the jumps are elevating the front leg much higher than TBs in a racing gallop. I remember reading around 50 years ago that US show jumpering riders were considering Hackney/TB crosses for show jumping but as far as I know no breeders worked on this cross as a long term breeding program.
If the TB jump killing influence on the WBs comes from the different action of the scapula/humerus joint and if the WB breeders NEED an outcross maybe they could consider crossing with the breeds that have the proper scapula/humerus joints. Off hand I can think of three breeds that have this scapula/humerus action, the Hackney, the American Saddlebred, and the Welsh Pony (I am sure there may be others, tell me about them please.) Hot bloods (TB, Arab, Turkomen especially) do NOT have this particular scapula/humerus action. Some Barb lines might have it but since pure Barb breeding is not popular in Europe/America I am not sure.
The French did some work breeding pure Barbs from their North African colonies during the colonial period and of crossing them to French lines of horses and the other hot blood breeds. Of course in Europe the Iberian breeds have an extremely heavy Barb influence and this influence is from when the Muslims “owned” Iberia and with later Barb imports. In the Americas there are the Paso breeds. the Criollo breeds, and a few American Mustang lines are almost pure Barb.
The problem, of course, is that the pure Barb is not a particularly “beautiful” breed, though they are very “handsome” with that elegant Roman nose, and they do not “fill the eye” of someone looking for a perfectly conformed TB. They also tend to be small horses.
As for crossing with the ASB or Hackney, they come with the scapula/humerus movement and have the heighth, but a breeder would have to look long and hard to find a horse than did not have other conformations that would be harmful to what the WB. ASBs can be very refined, unfortunately the refined ASBs also tend to have insufficient bone, their leg joints tend to be smaller, and often are croup high. The main problem with the Hackney horse is that it is solely a harness horse and has never been selected for riding and galloping; many of them are probably croup high also and they are not particularly refined. The Welsh pony has more riding qualities and some refinement and galloping ability (crosses of Arabian and TB blood) and MUCH better bone, but using a Welsh would probably sacrifice heighth, Welsh ponies are not 16 hands high!
EXCEPT for the heighth, a properly selected Welsh Mountain Pony stallion would probably give the WB breeders a good outcross to vary with the TB/hot blood outcrosses, one that would have a chance of not “killing the jump” while bringing in some refinement. If the worry is not so much refinement then a properly selected Welsh Section D Cob would serve since they are taller than ponies are.
Otherwise, consider that if you desire a pure Hot Blood outcross that Barbs still exist. You would probably loose ground on other conformational attibutes for a generation or three but to me this seems to be the only answer to the refinement/not killing the jump WB problem and the conformational problems would probably be less than with a Hackney or ASB cross.
Another option would be to find a 3-gaited ASB with proper bone and broad joints in the legs who was not too stiff in the back. You’d probably have to sacrifice a “pretty” head though. And yes, there have been a few ASBs that made quite satisfactory jumpers. It is just that an ASB that has any hope of competing successfully in ASB shows is an extremely valuable horse and costs a lot of money, so the ASB breeders have seen no need to cater to any other equestrian market.
Yes, now maybe I “see” the problem of WB breeders. I wish you all luck in finding a satisfactory solution. It won’t be easy. For everything except the scapula/humerus action (and the higher hind end action that tends to go along with it) a properly selected TB is the only outcross you need for what you want as a riding horse. Darn that pesky joint!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7622902]
Remember, Bayhawk, that you are the one who pointed out so vigorously that the Olympics are not real 4*s.
And it wasn’t just our team that had sj failures. We only had two riders make it through to sj, and KOC went double clear twice. Did you forget that?
Poor Ingrid Klimke went from tied for 1st after XC to 25th with her sj.
I just looked it up in the FEI database.[/QUOTE]
I was responding to the comment that eventing was giving more credence to dressage . They need to pay attention to their showjumping and as you point out … most all of them suck. It is a 3 part competition by the way.
Would a mare like this: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/67508 with a XX/OX percentage of 63,48% not already have the most horrible TB conformation that would have stopped her jumping 1.60 metres high courses?
[QUOTE=Elles;7623190]
Would a mare like this: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/67508 with a XX/OX percentage of 63,48% not already have the most horrible TB conformation that would have stopped her jumping 1.60 metres high courses?[/QUOTE]
This is not a TB mare. What part of this don’t you understand ?
This horse is by a TB and ended up 2nd in that competition… Probably because of his contender mother 
[QUOTE=Elles;7623075]
It is because of his neck set. People here say that dat all TB’s have a low set neck. I randomly picked a picture of a TB horse that does not have a horizontal neck.[/QUOTE]
No one said ALL Tb’s have a low set neck…just most. They have been bred like this for RACING.
Just by the sheer fact alone that you had to search for a picture of one without a “horizontal” neck should tell you something.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7623200]
This is not a TB mare. What part of this don’t you understand ?[/QUOTE]
It is easy enough, a horse gets it’s conformation from the sire as well as the dam. Simple, not complicated at all.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7623202]
No one said ALL Tb’s have a low set neck…just most. They have been bred like this for RACING.
Just by the sheer fact alone that you had to search for a picture of one without a “horizontal” neck should tell you something.[/QUOTE]
Like you say yourself, not all have a horizontal neck and not all have a “vertical” neck.
By the way, the fact that some of the best TB racehorses have the right necks shows that the horizontal neck is not necessary for a very good racehorse and breeding TB stallion.
Today I talked to Otto Lienau, the breeder of the earlier mentioned halfblood foal. I asked why he used Fragonard xx for this mare; http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1629750 He wanted a TB for this mare! Fragonard xx convinced him in also because of his pedigree. He said we must always look for a TB. You have to think in generations. For the sport we need blood he said. This same Otto Lienau made it possible with family Casper that Heraldik xx stood in Haselau at stud.
I say that breeders must have the courage to use TB’s in their program.
By the way, I believe too much line breeding and no TBs is going to be a problem in all areas of horse breeding not only in show jumping. I’m totally happy to have 2 mares with 60 and 50% TB from a line who produced GP dressage horses in the last generation:) with these mares ( none of them are direct descendants of TB) I will be able to use all the huge fancy Warmblood stallions with no inbreeding at all :). I always wonder what type of stallions other breeders can use? For examlple I have no idea how many times you can use the holsteiner C line:)
[QUOTE=Bachus;7623223]
Today I talked to Otto Lienau, the breeder of the earlier mentioned halfblood foal. I asked why he used Fragonard xx for this mare; http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1629750 He wanted a TB for this mare! Fragonard xx convinced him in also because of his pedigree. He said we must always look for a TB. You have to think in generations. For the sport we need blood he said. This same Otto Lienau made it possible with family Casper that Heraldik xx stood in Haselau at stud.
I say that breeders must have the courage to use TB’s in their program.[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much for your posts :). But it is tough to actually use TBs because you get hardly any support at all:( I still adore HJ Koehler who promoted TB in Hannover. We need somebody like him
The dam of Berlin: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10205705
the sire of Berlin: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10209216 and Berlin himself: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10419280
Does he look so much like his dam?
Again, if it had not been for the TB we would all have these types standing in our stables: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=510385&time=1398439629
[QUOTE=Elles;7623247]
Again, if it had not been for the TB we would all have these types standing in our stables: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=510385&time=1398439629[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re just joking. Or you just proved that you really don’t understand much of where the modern warmblood comes from … TBs had one part in that story, but they were not the only source of outside refinement blood, especially not in the Holsteiner breed. And I know this might be news to you, but the oldest breeding stud book outdates the TB breed’s official stud book. And that was a warmblood stud book.
I don’t get you all … nobody in their right mind argues that TBs are not necessary for sport horses in eventing, as some of you seem to read out of this. They always will be, although the number of purebred TBs actually competing is not as overwhelming as one might think. Still, they produce well and continue to be all important for the upper levels.
Bayhawk et al. simply state that in modern 1.60m classes in show jumping, TBs are not seen. And he is right. You both have a good point. He understands that line breeding is not going to be a perpetual mobile machine that never requires fresh input. HE may not be the breeder interested in finding that rare TB that will prove to work well for his particular breed, the Holsteiner. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen - in fact it HAS to happen if the Holsteiner breed wants to survive and dominate show jumping, not because of the added factor of “jumping” from a TB, but because of the added factor of musculature, metabolism and stamina.
So while some of you are outranged that apparently the other side claims TBs can’t produce sport horses, that is really not what is being written down here. Two disciplines, two totally different discussions.
I for my part would have loved to see what a stallion like Star Regent xx could have done for show jumping in Holstein, only he never got a chance. So there
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