TB kills the jump?

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7623202]
No one said ALL Tb’s have a low set neck…just most. They have been bred like this for RACING.

Just by the sheer fact alone that you had to search for a picture of one without a “horizontal” neck should tell you something.[/QUOTE]

No, you’re wrong, most do not have a horizontal neck set. You must be repeating rumors. You simply do not know what you’re talking about when it comes to thoroughbreds. I do not say that in rudeness. I say that hoping you’ll look around. You live in VA, you’re surrounded by nice thoroughbreds. Go up to Maryland and you’ll see even more.

I think warmblood horses are beautiful animals and incredible athletes. I hate to see you discredit them with you inability to see the quality of animal that contributed to the modern warmblood’s athleticism. Your uninformed comments about thoroughbreds distract from what you might, in my opinion, know about warmbloods. I don’t know enough about the history of warmbloods to judge your knowledge, but based upon what you say about today’s thoroughbreds you are not a careful thinker. Why should I put any credence in your opinions?

Most thoroughbreds do not have low set necks. another myth

Interesting article in Horse Magazine about Rohdiamant’s breeder who recently died with parts of a lengthy interview with him, some of which includes TB discussion.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/05/rohdiamants-breeder-dead/

Apparently he found a couple of TB cross mares too sensitive to make good working farm horses.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7621599]
Ah HA ! Now you say it…bred for RACING…not sporthorses.

This might explain why you have so few. This would also explain why you should probably quit touting them as such so much .[/QUOTE]

This is some revelation for you, that much TBs are bred for racing? Glad you finally caught up.

The reason I “tout them so much” is that TBs can be incredible jumpers IN SPITE OF being bred for racing, and that without them warmbloods wouldn’t be anywhere in showjumping. If TBs were bred for jumping they’d be on equal footing with warmbloods. Now do you FINALLY understand what some of us are getting at?

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;7621625]
You all realize that there’s no point whatsoever in arguing with someone who thinks that only Grand Prix showjumpers are sporthorses? Because galloping for 4-5 miles over 30+ moderately large solid obstacles is like, a short stirrup class or something. Certainly not an equally valuable sport requiring a rather different animal.

Bayhawk is a classic troll - notice how he was “bored with this” a page ago and jihadists, really the man needs a dictionary and a lesson on unnecessary use of inflammatory diction. Not to mention that he’s the one vociferously proclaiming modern TBs to be garbage while no one is actually attacking his chosen breed.

I would add that many TBs aren’t actually even bred for racing. They’re bred to be sold for seven figures at auction as yearlings, which is a supreme disservice to the breed. Does that mean that there isn’t a healthy population of excellent jumping horses in that 1.3 million? Of course not.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I just responded to bayhawk myself, in spite of the fact his post was so juvenile it wasn’t even funny – but I wish everyone would just start ignoring him. All he ever does is ruin threads like these, and he doesn’t say anything worth reading.

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7621683]
I posted to give an example of what can happen when you use a TB mare bred to race, not for sport. How many times and at what expense was I to repeat a breeding that went back and pulled up the Mr. Prospector/ND genes of the grandsire that made the end product look like a QH? How many generations would it take to breed that genetic dice roll out? Even if it did not show up right away, what about the F2 generation? Holstein added the TB years ago for refinement and patiently worked with what it did and did not do for them.

I gave one example because it was mine to give, my story. There are others but those stories are not mine to relate.

Since the OP started with, “the TB kills the jump,” one would assume high level GP jumping. Eventers and steeplechasers exhibit other characteristics including speed and jump in that format. But I would also remind that Connemara crosses have had success there as well as other breeds. I remember some Appaloosa’s that tore the courses up at a regional level. So non-TB success stories are there just as well and just as frequently as TB GP jumpers.

TB’s I admire for the handyman they are, racing, polo, etc. But jump specialists they are not and I think that is where the original question lies.

If you look for consistent product, it would not be a TB mare base because they are only bred for consistent results on the race track.

One could also say that TB’s are nothing more than local mares bred to very select Arabian/Barb/Turk stallions, albeit a bit further back. And it’s been postulated that the TB needs an infusion of something, but it’s a closed book. If the WB people cannot find the right kind of TB anymore, it’s because that closed book and sales/ baby talent-oriented thinking has created what it has.

But I’ve been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and wore it out, and I’d rather people know the other side of the TB argument in WB breeding, because it just isn’t that easy to use the TB mare base in this country and get the same results. People really, really need to know that the TB isn’t the be-all/end-all animal, unless it’s just the right one. Getting hard to find that gem any more. Study how, who, and on what mares the TB’s of the past were used in Holstein. Ask the people knowledgeable about the failures, culling the results, and what to cross on next. This thread could be a gold mine of information. Whether you want to buy into it or not is up to you. I would lament the loss of a “nugget” of wisdom just because some disagree.[/QUOTE]

My mare was bred to race, and did. So were almost all of the horses that were put up for examples both for jumping and breeding. Race bred, and in spite of that still had top talent for jumping and passed it on.

So because of my experiences I will continue to be unimpressed by your n of 1.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7621854]
How much does being used on dressage bred mares for the vast majority of foals affect the breeding index?

It’s been my opinion for years that Lauries Crusador OUGHT to have been a very good event sire, but most breeders in Germany aren’t interested in purpose breeding for eventing.[/QUOTE]

A lot. I was just curious about whether or not eventing is counted.

In spite of being a dressage sire, LC managed to produce at least 2 1.4m jumpers (I haven’t looked through all his progeny on horse telex yet).

I read in Warmblood magazine that a number of breeders in Germany have been breeding for eventers – probably (cough), especially since the change in format.

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7622393]
I don’t mean to speak for Fred, but don’t toss A Fine Romance in with the pool of current TBs coming off the track that may be trying for a performance career. AFR’s conformation is nothing like the majority of TBs today. I have absolutely no issue with this horse as a sports horse sire. This is one of the many points you continue to miss or deliberately ignore.

Horses that are croup high/downhill, have spindly legs with long sloping pasterns, upside-down necks and questionable soundness don’t make good sport horses, no matter what the breed. They simply can’t jump out of their own way and future soundness is likely to be a problem for a jumping career whether from wear and tear or horrible conformation.

Somewhere in the recent past, people stopped breeding TB sport horses. To continually blame breeders, trainers, customers and riders for filling the gap with a type of horse that is more suited to the job is stupid.[/QUOTE]

I will certainly throw A Fine Romance into the pot. My whole point is the use of TBs that can JUMP, and that point is certainly not stupid. Not using the TB talent that is available for breeding (and riding) for that matter – one can certainly call that stupid and short-sighted, although people are free to breed and ride whatever they want, and whatever is easiest.

You know, you keep coming on here with insults and smug mis-statements – TRY READING FOR COMPREHENSION FIRST. I’m not missing anything – you are, by lumping all TBs together.

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7622545]
But “too talented” (which i’ve already addressed) would mean we’d see fewer tbs at the lower level with your “awful juniors” and more tbs at the top with talented professionals. This is the opposite of what we see.[/QUOTE]

What would “too talented” have to do with his many TBs are at lower levels? Look at supershorty’s mare. Not too many riders would have taken her up the levels the way Emily did. My own mare was capable of so much more than I did with her.

Breeders on here complain all the time that no one is riding their secret superstars, and yet somehow TBs are supposed to make it to the top on their own. Do you see the problem in logic here?

And yet A Fine Romance has offspring in GP jumping, winning at 3 star eventing, and had grandchildren competing in the Pan Am Games in dressage, and that horse isn’t supposed to count, oh no. :rolleyes:

Quote: I read in Warmblood magazine that a number of breeders in Germany have been breeding for eventers – probably (cough), especially since the change in format.

Germany only has a handful of pure event horse breeders, and with one exception they were all here before the format change. It is the most difficult sport to purpose-breed for because you usually can’t tell what your product can do until it’s fairly adult (read: expensive) and almost no event rider buys youngsters that can’t be tested under saddle, as opposed to many dressage and SJ rider I know that have no problem with buying babies. They also sell quicker should they NOT turn out to be the pot of gold. It’s a downward business for event horse breeders with the few exceptions thrown in.
Of course, there are the idealists out there that simply don’t care … myself included :wink:

To address an earlier question: eventing is NOT counting towards any breed index scores in Germany. Much to our dismay and we’re working on a solution.

LC was originally brought to Holstein by Maas J. Hell, specifically because of his bloodlines as a show jumper sire. That idea was very quickly dropped. LC has bred enormous amounts of mares and it is no wonder that some of his offspring also jump. The vast majority are negative talents, both of eventing and show jumping. I’ve dealt with many, seen even more, they have very positive attributes in various traits, jumping is NOT one of them in general.

[QUOTE=Maren;7623278]
I hope you’re just joking. Or you just proved that you really don’t understand much of where the modern warmblood comes from … TBs had one part in that story, but they were not the only source of outside refinement blood, especially not in the Holsteiner breed. And I know this might be news to you, but the oldest breeding stud book outdates the TB breed’s official stud book. And that was a warmblood stud book.

I don’t get you all … nobody in their right mind argues that TBs are not necessary for sport horses in eventing, as some of you seem to read out of this. They always will be, although the number of purebred TBs actually competing is not as overwhelming as one might think. Still, they produce well and continue to be all important for the upper levels.
Bayhawk et al. simply state that in modern 1.60m classes in show jumping, TBs are not seen. And he is right. You both have a good point. He understands that line breeding is not going to be a perpetual mobile machine that never requires fresh input. HE may not be the breeder interested in finding that rare TB that will prove to work well for his particular breed, the Holsteiner. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen - in fact it HAS to happen if the Holsteiner breed wants to survive and dominate show jumping, not because of the added factor of “jumping” from a TB, but because of the added factor of musculature, metabolism and stamina.

So while some of you are outranged that apparently the other side claims TBs can’t produce sport horses, that is really not what is being written down here. Two disciplines, two totally different discussions.

I for my part would have loved to see what a stallion like Star Regent xx could have done for show jumping in Holstein, only he never got a chance. So there :-)[/QUOTE]

Thank you Maren ! Your assessment of my opinions and ideas is perfect as well as your understanding of what has to happen in the future.

[QUOTE=Maren;7623354]
Quote: I read in Warmblood magazine that a number of breeders in Germany have been breeding for eventers – probably (cough), especially since the change in format.

Germany only has a handful of pure event horse breeders, and with one exception they were all here before the format change. It is the most difficult sport to purpose-breed for because you usually can’t tell what your product can do until it’s fairly adult (read: expensive) and almost no event rider buys youngsters that can’t be tested under saddle, as opposed to many dressage and SJ rider I know that have no problem with buying babies. They also sell quicker should they NOT turn out to be the pot of gold. It’s a downward business for event horse breeders with the few exceptions thrown in.
Of course, there are the idealists out there that simply don’t care … myself included ;-)[/QUOTE]

I said a number – not a large number. I’ll have to read the article again. What’s funny is that I was told on here by a German poster that hardly anyone was breeding for eventing in Germany, which isn’t true. Julia Schmid was one of the breeders interviewed. Iris Schless, co-founder of Top Eventers GmbH was also interviewed. The article describes Top Eventers as “a company that provides a platform for buyers and sellers of event horses to come together via hosted auctions”. Of course Fritz Butt was mentioned too.

There is no denying that the new format favors a different sort of horse than it used to – the brilliant crosscountry horse and showjumping whose weak link was dressage isn’t as successful as it used to be.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7623335]
Agreed. I just responded to bayhawk myself, in spite of the fact his post was so juvenile it wasn’t even funny – but I wish everyone would just start ignoring him. All he ever does is ruin threads like these, and he doesn’t say anything worth reading.[/QUOTE]

Jealous ,jealous miss breeder of ONE foal. According to the many messages in my inbox…there is a great deal worth reading.

In case you missed it , I will write it again…since 1978 there have been 1.3 million tb foals born to the Jockey Club. Thats an average of 36,111 tb foals born each and every year for the last 36 years in a row , yet there are only a few exceptions in sport out of 1.3 million foals.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7623370]
Jealous ,jealous miss breeder of ONE foal. According to the many messages in my inbox…there is a great deal worth reading.

In case you missed it , I will write it again…since 1978 there have been 1.3 million tb foals born to the Jockey Club. Thats an average of 36,111 tb foals born each and every year for the last 36 years in a row , yet there are only a few exceptions in sport out of 1.3 million foals.

Nothing more needs to be said.[/QUOTE]

I’m not jealous. Jealous of what? You’re delusional. :lol: And there can’t be anything in the “many” messages" in your inbox worth reading. That’s BS.

What are you, 4 years old?

It’s true, nothing more needs to be said – by you.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7623119]
Over jumping the fences / too careful - tomato
too much scope - tomaaato

Depends on who you’re talking to and what verbiage they use…too much time in the air ,too careful and not being efficient is the same meaning.

At the end of the day it’s not desirable.

And I was also referring to the fact that the horses have changed. The immensely huge galloping horse with massive scope from the days of old is no longer needed. The horses need enough scope today but need to be more agile.

And yes…I have heard several riders say horses had too much scope /too careful and it’s very difficult to fix.

Whoever chooses what term…ballooning over the jump is the issue.[/QUOTE]

I believe that too much time in the air has nothing to do with scope. However, I agree that everyone has their own definition of jumping faults.

I would say that agility can also be referred to as adjustability. Lines are often set to test a horses ability to shorten or lengthen, particularly in combinations. The need to gallop flat is no longer necessary, as a matter of fact, it can get you in a whole lot of trouble.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7623346]
A lot. I was just curious about whether or not eventing is counted.

In spite of being a dressage sire, LC managed to produce at least 2 1.4m jumpers (I haven’t looked through all his progeny on horse telex yet).[/QUOTE]

The BLUP model on which these breeding values are based is designed to isolate the animal in question from the rest of the pedigree to understand the contribution of the animal itself. I will not go so far to say that the mare base has no impact on a given stallions’ indices, but at the same time, the scientific term “a lot” is entirely inaccurate and baseless.

So you don’t think that a stallion’s mare base doesn’t have “a lot” to do with a stallion’s get? Prove it, because that sounds like an entirely inaccurate and baseless statement.

Perhaps you missed the bit where I said that everyone knows that LC is known as a dressage sire? Now there’s going to be an argument about this, too?

Not to distract from your kindergarden plays :wink: BUT

  1. I agree grayarabpony that the new event horse is different to the old one. But I’d like to point out that also the level of competitiveness of modern event riders in DRESSAGE has risen tremendously over old format days. It’s not just the horse material that is different … I bet a number of the old format horses that “were bad at dressage” would look differently today under a Michael Pollard, Phillip Dutton, Ingrid Klimke, Michael Jung … extend list as seen fit

  2. Top Event Horse auction is supplied with at least 80% horses originally bred for something else than eventing. When you see a name like Dr. Hubertus Schmidtlein, who has sold numerous horses at that auction - that happened to be one man dedicated to breeding event horses. He is also the founder of the Porject Nurmi young event horse tests in Germany. A man with a big vision in which TB and Arabian blood played a center role.
    He is giving up in 2014 due to age and illness. He owned one of the very last direct Heraldik xx daughters of breeding age and soundness in Germany. A mare that is now owned by an AMERICAN dedicated event horse breeder, and I’ll shamelessly say that I’m proud to have spotted her and made sure she would not be lost to the sport. The other highly interested breeder was a Hanoverian show jumper breeder …
    The rest of the auction is made up of riding horses that have done well in young event horse classes with little to no direct blood and a big question mark weather they will ever run a 4*. The auction is a fantastic event and brings us little breeders into a spotlight we otherwise would never have seen. But the selection process is tough and very much centered on the horse without paying too much attention to pedigree.

  3. Your quote from above: I said a number – not a large number.
    Mz answer - and I never said you did.

[QUOTE=Maren;7623397]
Not to distract from your kindergarden plays :wink: BUT

  1. I agree grayarabpony that the new event horse is different to the old one. But I’d like to point out that also the level of competitiveness of modern event riders in DRESSAGE has risen tremendously over old format days. It’s not just the horse material that is different … I bet a number of the old format horses that “were bad at dressage” would look differently today under a Michael Pollard, Phillip Dutton, Ingrid Klimke, Michael Jung … extend list as seen fit

  2. Top Event Horse auction is supplied with at least 80% horses originally bred for something else than eventing. When you see a name like Dr. Hubertus Schmidtlein, who has sold numerous horses at that auction - that happened to be one man dedicated to breeding event horses. He is also the founder of the Porject Nurmi young event horse tests in Germany. A man with a big vision in which TB and Arabian blood played a center role.
    He is giving up in 2014 due to age and illness. He owned one of the very last direct Heraldik xx daughters of breeding age and soundness in Germany. A mare that is now owned by an AMERICAN dedicated event horse breeder, and I’ll shamelessly say that I’m proud to have spotted her and made sure she would not be lost to the sport. The other highly interested breeder was a Hanoverian show jumper breeder …
    The rest of the auction is made up of riding horses that have done well in young event horse classes with little to no direct blood and a big question mark weather they will ever run a 4*. The auction is a fantastic event and brings us little breeders into a spotlight we otherwise would never have seen. But the selection process is tough and very much centered on the horse without paying too much attention to pedigree.

  3. Your quote from above: I said a number – not a large number.
    Mz answer - and I never said you did.[/QUOTE]

The riders are the same. The horses are different. :slight_smile: Yes the riders have improved in dressage, but many of the top riders are still the same ones since the 1990s.

Just compare Blythe Tait’s test on one of his hotter horses versus one his warmbloods.

I never said that Top Eventers has auctions only for eventers – I was just quoting the article. Including eventing in the mix is a way for German breeders to be able to market everything that they breed.

The stuff on this board isn’t kindergarten plays (except on bayhawk’s part). It’s people posting things that are nasty and petty and inaccurate and I don’t know why anyone would think it’s entertaining.

I had read about this study elsewhere-and the COTH covered it too trying to correlate conformation with jump…a difficult task no doubt considering how many different shapes and sizes are successful in the jumper ring, It would be interesting if a sample of the “great” jumpers were used BDR, QDR, the holsteiner greats, Gem Twist, etc from the different breeds to see if there is any commonality.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/science-trying-measure-jumping-ability

Measuring Jumpers’ Structure In 3-D

From France’s National Veterinary School in Alfort, Crevier-Denoix presented “A 3-D Video Morphometric Measurement Method.” (Morphometric is the measuring of structure.) This study focused on how jumpers inherit the conformation that’s related to superior performance.

“The study is to calculate heritability,” said Crevier-Denoix.

Typically, horsemen evaluate jumpers’ conformation through observation, a subjective opinion. Crevier-Denoix commented on scientific methods such as (1) objective measurements of height, width and circumference of the limbs; or (2) photographs of reference-point markers glued to the horse. But method 1 may not indicate data relevant to performance, and method 2 takes time and requires each horse to stand squarely.

“A breeding program needs objective, precise measurement on large numbers, such as young horses in the field,” explained Crevier-Denoix. Therefore, she used a video method similar to van Weeren’s, “derived from kinematic analysis to record the horse while walking. It uses natural and spontaneous reference positions.”

Computerized video techniques form a model, producing three-dimensional data from real-life distances and angles of the horse’s body in motion.

Researchers measure anatomical landmarks of the horse’s skeletal structure, filmed for later analysis. “3-D gives you real length and angles,” said Crevier-Denoix.

Working with the Haras Nationaux (French National Stud) and Selle Franç¡©s breeders, Crevier-Denoix and her team recorded horses in the field. In their initial study, they chose 40 jumpers already showing in France.

They marked a path for each horse to walk, with four digital video cameras to record the gait. Each horse was led down the path, turned, and walked back.

“We recorded a calibration structure,” said Crevier-Denoix. In the structure formed from the four video images, they tracked positions of landmarks related to the horse’s offside legs.

She explained, “The reference position was the vertical image of the right fore and right hind at the walk. We selected 15 bony landmarks for the forelimb and 13 on the hind limb.”

Landmarks included tracking the withers, croup, and hip angle on both the fore and hind legs.

This study was able to record many horses in a short time (2 minutes each), at the owners’ convenience. Horses simply walked the path while cameras recorded the gait.

“The recording time is very short, and so it was accepted by owners and riders,” said Crevier-Denoix. “It could be done at a show.”

They chose the walk because it’s a uniform gait. “There is less variability at the walk, compared to the horse standing square. Also, it’s easier with foals,” said Crevier-Denoix.

The video produced morphometric (structure-measuring) data for computer software to calculate the height and length of body segments. In the laboratory, software projected angles between segments in the structure and produced the three-dimensional image. Researchers could view a horse’s skeletal planes–both straight on and lengthwise.

The first study compared two groups of 20 Selle Franç¡©s jumpers. Group A had a high sport index, greater than 150; group B had a low index of 101. Researchers found that the group A jumpers were higher in the hindquarters by 2 to 3 centimeters. They had longer croups, longer thighs (femur bones), and longer cannon bones. They were also shorter in length of the trunk (the measurement from shoulder to hip).

So are jumpers built “downhill”? Crevier-Denoix said no, clarifying, “The motor is in the hindquarters for speed and propulsion.”

She also noted that breeders like short cannon bones, but the study showed that the better jumpers had longer cannons. “It reduces inertia in jumping. It facilitates elbow flexion. The horse actively flexes the elbow and jumps more efficiently,” she said.

In their angles, the group A horses had a smaller angle (less steep) from croup to withers. The angle of the hind pastern was straighter, and the angle of forearm to shoulder was less.

“The longer croup and thigh are well-known in race horses,” said Crevier-Denoix. “Longer proximal bones and muscles are more efficient in both propulsion and engagement.”

She added, “We need to study a larger population to validate the data. In the literature, there is little data to compare conformation with performance, but this method can reveal significant differences.”

The French are now expanding this study to young horses (750 Selle Franç¡©s aged 4 and 5 years) and keeping records of 130 foals.