TB kills the jump?

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7623396]
So you don’t think that a stallion’s mare base doesn’t have “a lot” to do with a stallion’s get? Prove it, because that sounds like an entirely inaccurate and baseless statement.[/QUOTE]

Nice twist. What I said was the breeding values of a stallion do not have “a lot” to do with the mare base of the stallion as the BLUP model is designed to isolate the effects of the mare base. So again, the mare base DOES NOT have “a lot” of impact on the stallion’s breeding values.

[grayarabpony]

And how accurate is the BLUP model? Your link seemed to be showing the performance of offspring as the basis for the stallion’s breeding values. Is my impression incorrect? How much is also based on ancestors? Do you know LC’s scores for jumping in his stallion tests? Never mind, he was accepted based on his racing record. I found Londondery’s:
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/londonderry.shtml. Not impressive, 25th place with a score of 88.91. He was third in dressage with a score of 134.56.

Plus, you will note, I wasn’t the one pimping LC as an event sire. I think an event sire needs to have a strong jumping talent that he passes on.

[Maren]

@ grayarabpony, sorry, but I disagree with your first statement re different horses. But that’s ok, it’s the nature of the beast.

This though …

The stuff on this board isn’t kindergarten plays (except on bayhawk’s part). It’s people posting things that are nasty and petty and inaccurate and I don’t know why anyone would think it’s entertaining.

… proved my point. Not sure why you seem to feel the need to single people out here, but you do. And also, this is the last I will add to that part I’m not interested in a discussion about people’s perceived personality traits especially when I don’t know more about them than an internet appearance, and that applies to you, Bayhawk and everybody else here. It’s just a Board.

Omare points towards something I run into quite a bit as well - the dilemma of what we can “measure” and address as objectively as possible, and the fact that they do run (perform, jump, etc) in all shapes. There’s a disconnect. One that I think about a lot.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7623410]
And how accurate is the BLUP model?[/QUOTE]

More accurate than “a lot.”

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7623418]
More accurate than “a lot.”[/QUOTE]

That’s not an answer.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;7623412]
@ grayarabpony, sorry, but I disagree with your first statement re different horses. But that’s ok, it’s the nature of the beast.

This though …

The stuff on this board isn’t kindergarten plays (except on bayhawk’s part). It’s people posting things that are nasty and petty and inaccurate and I don’t know why anyone would think it’s entertaining.

… proved my point. Not sure why you seem to feel the need to single people out here, but you do. And also, this is the last I will add to that part I’m not interested in a discussion about people’s perceived personality traits especially when I don’t know more about them than an internet appearance, and that applies to you, Bayhawk and everybody else here. It’s just a Board.

Omare points towards something I run into quite a bit as well - the dilemma of what we can “measure” and address as objectively as possible, and the fact that they do run (perform, jump, etc) in all shapes. There’s a disconnect. One that I think about a lot.[/QUOTE]

Then you don’t know bayhawk’s posting history very well, and you’d do well not to insult me over it, which you have. OK? Can you do that? As of now you are the kettle calling the pot black.

I still don’t know why you’d find that sort of stuff to be entertaining.

[grayarabpony]

Here’s the link you provided, Bent Hickory: http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=9aa946767222b0920e5f2c390934ade6&keyPFID=062413085&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

The charts at the bottom do appear to be looking at the offspring. LC definitely appears to be a far better dressage sire than jumping sire.

Here’s an article on the use of BLUP for breeding horses: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2011/03/breeding-values-a-survey-of-the-major-stud-books/

[vineyridge]

I don’t know if Elles has posted this TB mare, Taquinerie, or not, but she had two direct offspring in show jumping in the Barcelona Olympics. And apparently her tail female (mare) line is still producing show jumpers, even 1.60 show jumpers.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/136308

Bayhawk, you must be changing your position to agree with Maren. You’ve said over and over that TBs not only aren’t 1.60 show jumpers, but they can’t breed 1.60 show jumpers, and their blood is detrimental to sport horse breeding.

About LC as an eventing sire, his lines are filled with horses who have produced top quality event descendants. If he himself is a “jump killer”, there is still very little reason why those lines, reinforced with careful linebreeding, still wouldn’t produce good moving and jumping event horses.

[Maren]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7623433]
About LC as an eventing sire, his lines are filled with horses who have produced top quality event descendants. If he himself is a “jump killer”, there is still very little reason why those lines, reinforced with careful linebreeding, still wouldn’t produce good moving and jumping event horses.[/QUOTE]

Because why would you run the risk and spend a LOT OF MONEY on a gamble when you have better options available (in event horse breeding with TBs)?? I mean really. Do it if you think it’s doable. But don’t expect others to do it.

Some pedigrees, no matter how well they propose to work, just don’t. You can’t ride paper, I know you know that but you argue against that logic.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7623433]
I don’t know if Elles has posted this TB mare, Taquinerie, or not, but she had two direct offspring in show jumping in the Barcelona Olympics. And apparently her tail female (mare) line is still producing show jumpers, even 1.60 show jumpers.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/136308

Bayhawk, you must be changing your position to agree with Maren. You’ve said over and over that TBs not only aren’t 1.60 show jumpers, but they can’t breed 1.60 show jumpers, and their blood is detrimental to sport horse breeding.

About LC as an eventing sire, his lines are filled with horses who have produced top quality event descendants. If he himself is a “jump killer”, there is still very little reason why those lines, reinforced with careful linebreeding, still wouldn’t produce good moving and jumping event horses.[/QUOTE]

I think finding descendents of Tudor Ministrel/ Tudor Melody that can jump would be the best way to go.

Vicky Latta’s Chief descended from Tudor Melody. I don’t know Chief’s pedigree but heard Lucinda Green say that in a commentary.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7623425]
Then you don’t know bayhawk’s posting history very well, and you’d do well not to insult me over it, which you have. OK? Can you do that? As of now you are the kettle calling the pot black.

I still don’t know why you’d find that sort of stuff to be entertaining.[/QUOTE]

You believe that people who disagree with your postings are insulting you. Maren is not insulting you. Stop taking peoples’/breeder’s opinions that differ from yours as insulting. Nothing could be further from the truth. And, quite frankly, many of your posts directed towards others could be perceived as “insulting” and personal.

You may not like Bayhawk’s delivery at times, but he has a wealth of knowledge to share. I’m adult enough to look past any negative personal comments to learn from what he has to say.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7623549]
You believe that people who disagree with your postings are insulting you. Maren is not insulting you. Stop taking peoples’/breeder’s opinions that differ from yours as insulting. Nothing could be further from the truth. And, quite frankly, many of your posts directed towards others could be perceived as “insulting” and personal.

You may not like Bayhawk’s delivery at times, but he has a wealth of knowledge to share. I’m adult enough to look past any negative personal comments to learn from what he has to say.[/QUOTE]

Quit taking stuff out of context. Maren obviously doesn’t know a lot of bayhawk’ posting history. Nor did I say that anyone who disagrees with me is insulting me. However, there has been a lot of insulting and inaccurate posts about TBs on here.

Bayhawk may be a wealth of info on Holsteiner pedigrees but little else from what I’ve read on here. He knows very little about TBs, and yet wants to slam them at every opportunity. Thankfully I’m adult enough to be able to tell an actual expert when I see one.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=Maren;7623278]
I hope you’re just joking. Or you just proved that you really don’t understand much of where the modern warmblood comes from … TBs had one part in that story, but they were not the only source of outside refinement blood, especially not in the Holsteiner breed. And I know this might be news to you, but the oldest breeding stud book outdates the TB breed’s official stud book. And that was a warmblood stud book.

I don’t get you all … nobody in their right mind argues that TBs are not necessary for sport horses in eventing, as some of you seem to read out of this. They always will be, although the number of purebred TBs actually competing is not as overwhelming as one might think. Still, they produce well and continue to be all important for the upper levels.
Bayhawk et al. simply state that in modern 1.60m classes in show jumping, TBs are not seen. And he is right. You both have a good point. He understands that line breeding is not going to be a perpetual mobile machine that never requires fresh input. HE may not be the breeder interested in finding that rare TB that will prove to work well for his particular breed, the Holsteiner. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen - in fact it HAS to happen if the Holsteiner breed wants to survive and dominate show jumping, not because of the added factor of “jumping” from a TB, but because of the added factor of musculature, metabolism and stamina.

So while some of you are outranged that apparently the other side claims TBs can’t produce sport horses, that is really not what is being written down here. Two disciplines, two totally different discussions.

I for my part would have loved to see what a stallion like Star Regent xx could have done for show jumping in Holstein, only he never got a chance. So there :-)[/QUOTE]

What other type of light horses/hot bloods has been used in warmblood breeding these last 150 years other than TB’s and Arabians?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;7623278]
I hope you’re just joking. Or you just proved that you really don’t understand much of where the modern warmblood comes from … TBs had one part in that story, but they were not the only source of outside refinement blood, especially not in the Holsteiner breed. And I know this might be news to you, but the oldest breeding stud book outdates the TB breed’s official stud book. And that was a warmblood stud book.

I don’t get you all … nobody in their right mind argues that TBs are not necessary for sport horses in eventing, as some of you seem to read out of this. They always will be, although the number of purebred TBs actually competing is not as overwhelming as one might think. Still, they produce well and continue to be all important for the upper levels.
Bayhawk et al. simply state that in modern 1.60m classes in show jumping, TBs are not seen. And he is right. You both have a good point. He understands that line breeding is not going to be a perpetual mobile machine that never requires fresh input. HE may not be the breeder interested in finding that rare TB that will prove to work well for his particular breed, the Holsteiner. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen - in fact it HAS to happen if the Holsteiner breed wants to survive and dominate show jumping, not because of the added factor of “jumping” from a TB, but because of the added factor of musculature, metabolism and stamina.

So while some of you are outranged that apparently the other side claims TBs can’t produce sport horses, that is really not what is being written down here. Two disciplines, two totally different discussions.

I for my part would have loved to see what a stallion like Star Regent xx could have done for show jumping in Holstein, only he never got a chance. So there :-)[/QUOTE]

TBs are seen in the 1.6m ring still, in spite of not being bred for jumping. No one can claim that TBs kill the jumper if breeders use TBs with the sort of jumping capability they want. Sigh. Common sense and all that. And yes, those horses do exist. Just look at the examples posted on this thread.

[vineyridge]

BTW, I just read the FEI Obstacle rules. Did y’all know that the maximum jump height is not 1.60 but 1.70. And it can measure higher, depending on the ground and materials used–up to 5 cms higher and 10 cms wider. They also allow many, many more types of jumps than are seen in today’s courses, and the maximum spread for a 4* XC jump is the same at the top as the maximum spread for sj,(2.00) except for triple bars which can be 2/10 wider. But the base spread of a 4* xc fence is 3.00.

So it does appear that there is room for courses to go a bit higher, as they were in the past.

The FEI sj rules will accept an arena that is only 20 meters wide! That’s the same width as the standard dressage arena–tiny to my way of thinking.

[omare]

That is interesting Viney as I was “sure” (until i am usually quickly proven wrong), that Frank Chapot was the course designer and set some fences a 5’7" for a World Cup Qualifier at Devon and those fences (verticals) looked every bit that.

[Fourbeats]

I’m not jealous. Jealous of what? You’re delusional. And there can’t be anything in the “many” messages" in your inbox worth reading. That’s BS.

Excuse me? As someone who has indeed been conversing privately with Reece on this topic, not to mention having 30 plus years in horses ( including breeding F1 crosses), I can promise you what I had to say sure as heck was worth reading. Who are you to determine the quality of my messages to him?

But, feel free to keep yacking and calling things you know nothing about as nothing more than nonsense.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7623549]

You may not like Bayhawk’s delivery at times, but he has a wealth of knowledge to share. I’m adult enough to look past any negative personal comments to learn from what he has to say.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. A truly educated person with a wealth of knowledge does not lambast those who know less than him, criticize those who are of lesser fortune than him, nor disparage those who disagree with him.

Just because someone has a “wealth of knowledge” does not mean they have the right to be an acrimonious ass any time someone has an opinion or thought that differs from his. Having an expanse of experience and expertise on the matter does not make Bayhawk exempt from acting like a professional adult.

The constant vitriol, spittle, back-patting and regurgitation of self-worth that Bayhawk exudes is anything but knowledgeable.

If Bayhawk et all truly wanted to share their (rightful) passion for the wonderful, fantastic, phenomenal breed that is Holsteiners, it could serve them well to share their wealth of knowledge in a manner that is concise, fair, and compassionate. Slinging a constant barrage of insults is disrespectful and discourteous and does nothing to promote the Holstein breed and the breeders behind it.

ETA: I think it is unfortunate the route this thread has taken - by both parties. To be fair, in a different thread - Bayhawk DID say TBs were becoming obsolete in eventing. I don’t agree, but I also don’t agree all TBs are excellent sport horses. Same goes for WBs, and they have no excuse - they are at least BRED for sport.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7623433]
I don’t know if Elles has posted this TB mare, Taquinerie, or not, but she had two direct offspring in show jumping in the Barcelona Olympics. And apparently her tail female (mare) line is still producing show jumpers, even 1.60 show jumpers.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/136308

Bayhawk, you must be changing your position to agree with Maren. You’ve said over and over that TBs not only aren’t 1.60 show jumpers, but they can’t breed 1.60 show jumpers, and their blood is detrimental to sport horse breeding.

About LC as an eventing sire, his lines are filled with horses who have produced top quality event descendants. If he himself is a “jump killer”, there is still very little reason why those lines, reinforced with careful linebreeding, still wouldn’t produce good moving and jumping event horses.[/QUOTE]

Here you go again Viney making up things as you go and you have actually sank to an all time low to now with outright lying…

I never said TB’s couldn’t jump 1.60 meter. I said there were very few exceptions that could /do.

I never said they couldn’t produce 1.60 meter jumpers…I said there were very few exceptions that do.

Stop outright lying Viney…I have NEVER said TB’s were “detrimental” to sporthorse breeding. As a matter of fact…I have ALWAYS said they were extremely important in the generational production of the warmblood.

You are unreal…

1.3 million TB’s born since 1978. 36,111 foals born every year for the last 36 years in a row and what ? Next to nothing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7623925]
I disagree. A truly educated person with a wealth of knowledge does not lambast those who know less than him, criticize those who are of lesser fortune than him, nor disparage those who disagree with him.

Just because someone has a “wealth of knowledge” does not mean they have the right to be an acrimonious ass any time someone has an opinion or thought that differs from his. Having an expanse of experience and expertise on the matter does not make Bayhawk exempt from acting like a professional adult.

The constant vitriol, spittle, back-patting and regurgitation of self-worth that Bayhawk exudes is anything but knowledgeable.

If Bayhawk et all truly wanted to share their (rightful) passion for the wonderful, fantastic, phenomenal breed that is Holsteiners, it could serve them well to share their wealth of knowledge in a manner that is concise, fair, and compassionate. Slinging a constant barrage of insults is disrespectful and discourteous and does nothing to promote the Holstein breed and the breeders behind it.

ETA: I think it is unfortunate the route this thread has taken - by both parties. To be fair, in a different thread - Bayhawk DID say TBs were becoming obsolete in eventing. I don’t agree, but I also don’t agree all TBs are excellent sport horses. Same goes for WBs, and they have no excuse - they are at least BRED for sport.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t lambasted anyone for knowing less than me. Have you heard me tell someone that I know more than them ?

I don’t criticize those less fortunate than me because I don’t know who is less fortunate than me.

I haven’t disparaged anyone who has dis-agreed with me. They have a right to their opinion.

I will tell you this…If you don’t like my delivery. If my words are not sugary enough for you. If you don’t like my general opinions about things then by all means…NEVER read one of my posts again please !

You may be right about one thing though…I can be an acrimonious ass from time to time so how about you consider this to be one of those times and understand that I don’t give a rats ass what you think of me. Is that acrimonious enough for you ?

Hey…you’re entitled to your opinion , you stated it…and I just stated mine.