Sorry…horses like Gem Twist WERE NOT bred to run. He was not off the track and neither were his parents. They were bred to jump. There are TB breeders here in the US who have bred to jump and bred generations to jump.
The right TBs do not kill a jump any more than the right WB sire or dam kills the jump.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7585801]
Sorry…horses like Gem Twist WERE NOT bred to run. He was not off the track and neither were his parents. They were bred to jump. There are TB breeders here in the US who have bred to jump and bred generations to jump.
The right TBs do not kill a jump any more than the right WB sire or dam kills the jump.[/QUOTE]
Why sorry?
How does that contradict anything I said? I stated there were a few people (like Fred) that did this. I also said some Tb’s can jump (of course).
Also said it is still easier to find a WB that can jump as they are purpose bred in greater numbers and have a higher degree of success.
The OP was “Tb kills the jump?”, and the answer has to be that many will but you have to look at the horse as an individual. As the overwhelming numbers of Tb’s are race bred and not jumper purpose bred. Dressage horses also kill the jump. This is a breeders forum, so you need to speak of the whole picture and the implications and not say that all Tb’s can jump so don’t worry. Wouldn’t say that about Wb’s either.
Wouldn’t it be interesting, since jumping is a timed event, to comment that WB kills the speed!now that is so obvious no one even argues that.
No, the courses have changed to accomodate a different kind of speed: powerful turns and stop/start rating.
With certain TB lines that is a very distinct possibility that they can be schooled to respond ideally as their reflexes are second to none - given the ideal rider.
I wonder if TB X TB RPSIs will be seen 8-10 years down the road as the Gemini twistoffspring come into competition. Time will tell as the Sport continues to evolve.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7585871]
Why sorry?
How does that contradict anything I said? I stated there were a few people (like Fred) that did this. I also said some Tb’s can jump (of course).
Also said it is still easier to find a WB that can jump as they are purpose bred in greater numbers and have a higher degree of success.
The OP was “Tb kills the jump?”, and the answer has to be that many will but you have to look at the horse as an individual. As the overwhelming numbers of Tb’s are race bred and not jumper purpose bred. Dressage horses also kill the jump. This is a breeders forum, so you need to speak of the whole picture and the implications and not say that all Tb’s can jump so don’t worry. Wouldn’t say that about Wb’s either.[/QUOTE]
My point was that there are JUST as many crap WB that kill the jump. The well bred good jumping TBs are not from 50 years ago…I’m not that old and I knew Gem and others.
Breeding for jumping is not just about the breed. It is about knowing the individuals you are breeding and their family…whether WB or TB. No, TB does NOT kill jump…there are individuals who will kill the jump. But as a breed, TBs are athletic and versatile. There are individual families that pass superior jumping skills. There are ones that don’t. Same as with WBs.
It’s a moot point. WB’s have come a very long way in 40/50 years with specialized breeding, but all along it has been mostly the TB that has refined the breeds from the heavy WB types to the athletic elegance of today, with an emphasis on ‘internal
qualities’. Now they are dressage-breds, and jumper-breds, further specialization.
My point was that there are JUST as many crap WB that kill the jump. The well bred good jumping TBs are not from 50 years ago…I’m not that old and I knew Gem and others.
If you were looking to find a good 1.4m horse, it would be a lot easier to find one if you looked at 30 purpose bred Wb’s than 30 OTTB.
But if you disagree, then there is an amazing business for you to take 2k OTTB and turn them into 30k+ and 1.4m jumpers. Not even being sarcastic. Most people I know just want results and I don’t thing they would care if they had donkey with filed down ears.
(and the reason there is so much junk WB’s in NA…people grabbed any old OTTB mare and bred her to a WB stallion. Not to say there were not great sport horse TB mares out there, but many people assumed that a Tb alone was good enough. Ironic that in an discussion pitting Tb’s against Wb’s, many of the Wb’s that are below average have the Tb blood in them that people need to be aware of. I have a couple Wb’s with OTTB in them and I think the people chose the right lines as opposed to just any TB mare, so no personal bias against Tb’s in general. )
There have been countless threads here on just that - the breeding of sporthorse TB’s and the lines that produce them. It isn’t just about breeding any TB to a WB.
The US breds often are bred to be early maturing for sprints, and not durability - but the older lines, Irish, French, and certain ‘names’ produce an outstanding sporthorse.
I have a third generation and none of her TB ancestors won a lot of $ in racing, they were searched for their style and abilities.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7586185]
If you were looking to find a good 1.4m horse, it would be a lot easier to find one if you looked at 30 purpose bred Wb’s than 30 OTTB.
But if you disagree, then there is an amazing business for you to take 2k OTTB and turn them into 30k+ and 1.4m jumpers. Not even being sarcastic. Most people I know just want results and I don’t thing they would care if they had donkey with filed down ears.
(and the reason there is so much junk WB’s in NA…people grabbed any old OTTB mare and bred her to a WB stallion. Not to say there were not great sport horse TB mares out there, but many people assumed that a Tb alone was good enough. Ironic that in an discussion pitting Tb’s against Wb’s, many of the Wb’s that are below average have the Tb blood in them that people need to be aware of. I have a couple Wb’s with OTTB in them and I think the people chose the right lines as opposed to just any TB mare, so no personal bias against Tb’s in general. )[/QUOTE]
Actually. I disagree. A big factor is also the rider. As a rider, I prefer a TB ride. I have absolutely no trouble finding a TB that is a good 1.4m horse. I have had several that I sold (were better jumpers than event horses). For ME and the type of ride that I prefer and click with, I look for the right type of TB with the right family lines. So given the type of ride that I want and prefer, I would have better luck looking at 30 OTTBs. You have to know your type of ride as much as finding the right athlete.
That said , most of the TBs and OTTBs that I know which are high quality cost more than 2K now a days. But yes, I’ve made some very good money buying and retraining some OTTBs.
I took it that BfE was referring to the wide world of WBs even those magical ones bred in Europe.
Many race-bred USA TBs, like many many European bred WBs can be 3ft even 4 ft horses but the trajectory goes up sharply from there as to how many European WBs can be 1.3m, 1.4m, 1.5m and very very few of the European WBs can be 1.6 m horses. And that is from thousands specialty bred over there-I think we had a thread once on how many thousands of WBs are bred --more than TBs bred for racing over here, and out of those how many end up being GP jumping horses–5 percent might be a liberal guess? I do agree whether TB or WB you are going to increase the odds if you are breeding for the jump.
Gem Twist…Gem Twist…Gem Twist. I am so glad there was ONE TB jumping horse that folks could hang their hat on.
Here’s an idea…if the Tb’s all you speak of are such good jumpers , let’s see them. Please provide some links to either free jumping or 1.40 meter under the rider. Lets see if all these statements can hold water.
Favoritas
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/favoritasxx.shtml
And I’m not even a TB knowledgable person, but if you want to keep your eyes closed, you probably don’t like Selle Francais either, as they have too much TB…
‘Kills the jump’
yep. Goes right over them. Killer jumpers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5miOvYc2C0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9AtLsplsTU
There may be a few more out there…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPw2JoHiTQ
Just a gymnastic; but no problem getting the height.
-Wasn’t even bred for jumping, either.
at a mare approval
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t56KrCx7C7o
Not an ugly mare atall, atall!
I think if Hunter was not such a popular and lucrative discipline, you would see more jumper TB’s and more jumper riders; just an opinion.
Default second career is commonly trained as Hunter or Eventer for most ex-racers that are sound in my opinion.
definitely not bred for jumping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_K1-vhRxW4
oh, I’ve a question for you:
Show me the 21 yr old warmblood that won 3 grand prix at age 21?-a TB did that.
http://showjumpinghalloffame.net/pdf/1987%20Idle%20Dice.pdf
oops!
Here’s another who competed at GP at age 21
http://showjumpinghalloffame.net/pdf/2005%20For%20the%20Moment.pdf
And then there is the mare…
http://showjumpinghalloffame.net/pdf/2000%20Touch%20of%20Class.pdf
The first double clear rounds in Olympic history and 2 gold medals.
Oh, dang.
She was bred for racing, too.
I guess there is just no hope for those jump killing non- Sport purpose bred TB’s.
Now what could happen if they WERE sport bred, I wonder…
I know that everyone gets very excited about this issue, and I do not really know why. There is room in the top level of showjumping for thoroughbreds and warmbloods alike if they can do the job. I do not think that anyone has ever said otherwise.
However, since this is in the breeding forum, I presume we are not talking about just sport but rather the development of jumping form in our breeding stock. While I would never knock the accomplishments of an Idle Dice or a Touch of Class, several of the other youtube videos above show examples of horses that I would not be interested in using in a jumping breeding program because, while their jump coupled with their athleticism may get the job done, they do not jump in good form and have to rely on that athleticism in order to jump the bigger jumps. For some people, that may not be a bad thing or could be something they can overlook, but I would not use a warmblood that jumped with hanging legs or had to swing the haunches to clear their hind end either. It has nothing to do with thoroughbred or warmblood for me, but rather how correct the horse’s form is over fences and whether or not that is inherited by its offspring.
My main point is that while there were some compelling examples of thoroughbreds jumping well at the top of sport, some of the other examples do not support that argument, in my opinion, as far as jumping form is concerned (ie the jump has been killed, but the horse is athletic enough to overcome this to a certain level).
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7586570]
Gem Twist…Gem Twist…Gem Twist. I am so glad there was ONE TB jumping horse that folks could hang their hat on.
Here’s an idea…if the Tb’s all you speak of are such good jumpers , let’s see them. Please provide some links to either free jumping or 1.40 meter under the rider. Lets see if all these statements can hold water.[/QUOTE]
Hand in Glove, Touch of Class, Favoritas and many others. Heraldik certainly did not kill the jump in breeding. Gem is just who I knew and is largely considered by many even European riders as one of the best SJ horses of all time. But given your past posts, it is not even worth discussing with you. We all know what you think.
1.4 meters is not even what used to be considered the high Prelim jumpers. There are many at that level. A 1.6 meter jumper is what is far harder to produce.
Again the premise that TB kills the jump is just dumb. Of course some TBs in breeding would kill jump but others would improve it. It isn’t the TB breed it is knowing the individual families. And like all breeding to is also personal taste of the rider. You can find good jumping TBs at the track but it is far easier to find those that were purpose bred for sport. And there are those around. Especially here in the midAtlantic.
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