TB kills the jump?

[Cumano]

No one said TB should not be bred into sporthorse at all. What is usualy said is that TB usually compromise the jump for the first generation, but the qualities will follow along in the next générations. Even the greatest of advocates of breeding thoroughbred in europe say so.

I just find it amusing how people find all sorts of excuses as to why we do not find as much thoroughbred in the sport today as we did 40 years ago. It is, however, the first time I read that the modern courses are built to “accomodate” the warmbloods. The courses evolved because they could not go any higher. They became much more complicated. It is not because the jumps are not as high that it needs less power. Jumps in today’s courses needs to be jumped in any angle, and often at any pace. WB breeding evolved into that direction and they kept excelling in the sport, even as it has become today.

It is not the riders inability either. Most of the riders learned to ride on thoroughbreds. The thoroughbreds are not such a particular ride, impossible for the europeans to understand! I it is good, it is as rideable as any other horse for the good rider.

Finally, I do not believe in the fashion excuse neither. Maybe in the lower classes, where people want the big, eyecatching ride and they have the money to buy it. BUt as you rise into the higher levels, the horses are getting rarer and good horses will find buyers. We still see TB in lower level, but somehow, they do not seem to make into the next level.

I would just submit an idea. Maybe the TB are not bred as they were 30 years ago? Breeders in Europe are always looking for the good TB stallions to bring into the studbooks. I have never heard any credible breeder saying that their is to much TB into breeding, or that we should avoid TB at all costs. However, they almost all say that they no longer find the Lady killers, Laudanum, Hand in Glove of Furiosos today.

[Elles]

But how many people nowadays use a sire like Albaran xx?
http://www.watermolen.net/index.php?c=Hengst&l=eng&type=2&id=3&type=2

[Bayhawk]

Cumano and Stoney have very good points. Cumano points to what I said earlier about the TB being used in generational breeding of the warmblood.

Stoney is correct in her assessment of the form over fences of the TB. They don;t have the form and technique to jump the large tracks. They haven’t been bred for it.

And yes…the TB is a jump killer. Just about every breeder in Europe will tell you that their half bred in F-1 does not have the jump nor the movement of it’s mother. This comes back in the next generation with the addition of another warmblood stallion.

I love SF and Holsteiner Horses with their good TB blood %…but they are not TB’s.

I said it earlier and I will say it again…other than eventing , the day of the TB sporthorse is over in top level competition. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one only has to look around the showrings to see that this is very much the case.

And when I asked for jumping videos…I was asking for them from the folks who are the supposed breeders of them , but yet again all I can get are links from days gone past.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;7586803]
But how many people nowadays use a sire like Albaran xx?
http://www.watermolen.net/index.php?c=Hengst&l=eng&type=2&id=3&type=2[/QUOTE]

It seems like quite a lot of people.

http://www.horsetelex.fr/horses/progeny/283611

Now why should anyone use him, when and how?

I think the problem is that the only question that was raised all along in this discussion is “Why people do not use TB in breeding anymore”. The question that we should be askink ourselves is “Which TB should be used, when and how?”.

[supershorty628]

Bayhawk, I have plenty of videos… but I’m not a breeder (although I did think about breeding my mare when she was younger) and I only have this one horse who has only done up to the 1.50s because I’m not good enough to do bigger. I’ve been keeping an eye out for more that are bred like her and put together the same way, but I’m not seeing a lot of them.

I’ve brought up on the H/J forum before that I think if we want to see a resurgence of the TBs at the higher levels in that discipline, that we really should be purpose-breeding them for the qualities that a good jumper has. There are always people, though, who argue that that’s not true and there are plenty of good TBs who raced first. I don’t think that’s wrong, but it doesn’t strike me as the most efficient way to do it, either.

[MsRidiculous]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7578588]
http://thisishorseracing.com/news/images/Foyle.jpg

This is Foyle one of the horses who ran in the Maryland Hunt Cup this year. From the take off spot the largest jumps are well over 5’, probably close to 6’. Foyle’s a thoroughbred by Yarrow Brae who stands in WV. Who wouldn’t want this jump in any horse’s breeding?

This year in the MD hunt cup there were two horses by Yarrow Brae, the rest were represented by: AP Indy, AP Jet, Point Given, Zaffaran, Lion Hearted, Eastern Echo, Flatter, Ops Smile, Outofthebox, Double Honor, Bon Point, Johannesburg and Presenting. Most, not all, raced on the flat before beginning this second career. Most steeplechase trainers don’t breed for steeplechasing because it’s much more economical and sensible to draw from the excellent pool of athletes coming from flat tracks. It’s really hard to go to the Maryland Hunt Cup and then hear someone say thoroughbreds kill the jump.[/QUOTE]

Yarrow Brae’s pedigree is very interesting to me. I have two mares: one by Westporte out of a TB mare that ended up in the jumper ring despite being hunter bred. She has a lot more jump than one would expect from her on paper. Her dam is this horse http://www.pedigreequery.com/hopes+secret+port - who shares Miswaki with Yarrow Brae and actually has Miswaki’s dam, Hopespringseternal, TWICE in her pedigree. There aren’t many horses in this world that I would say “love to jump” but this mare is one - her whole demeanor perks up ten notches when she gets to jump.

My other mare is http://www.pedigreequery.com/can+can+catherine who is by a son of Deputy Minister, the sire of Yarrow Brae. The mare has a decent amount of jump but more importantly has a hell of a lot of heart. There is NO quit in that horse. She is a big well sprung mare with good bone - nothing dainty about that one at all. Super “hard knocking” type of TB.

Pretty interesting to open up Yarrow Brae’s pedigree and see that both of my mares share close relatives in common with him.

[Foxtrot_s]

Bayhawk is always so pro-Holstein, but the fact remains that without the TB there would be no WB (add a little Arab for more hotblood) there would be no modern WB - that’s more to the point than comparing full TB to WB which has TB I it. The WB needs the athleticism, the WB supplies the power and less sensitivity.

So, since the WB’s are bred with TB in them, no the TB does not kill the jump.
More likely a highly dressage bred would.

Either way, it is amazing to me how selective breeding can produce these horses.

[zipperfoot]

I haven’t read all of the posts, but what puzzles me is why a horse that’s 50-50 WB/TB (pretty easy to find these days) is always referred to as a “warmblood” when it has just as much TB blood. Also, if TBs kill the jump, why do so many WBs have such a high percentage of TB blood?

Disclosure: TB fan (but also believe that a good horse is a good horse, regardless of bloodlines or breed).

[omare]

As most wb have almost 30-50 percent TB blood it would seem the TB has nothing to apologize for–it has long been acknowledged that the modern WB would not be what it is without the substantially addition of TB blood. The modern Wb is a hybrid that (for the most part) is not constrained by a closed book and can take the best from all worlds and stud books to make a jumping machine. Any stud book that remains closed is going to be at a disadvantaged.

(edited to add oops I think others have said it better at the same time I posted! )

[vineyridge]

Supershorty’s mare has a sire that stood out as a potential jumping sire many years ago. It was very obvious from his pedigree that he had lines that were jumping proven. And when the breeder doubled up on Olden Times, those lines were reinforced. We’ve lost many of those sire lines because of changes in US racing–and the paucity of US sport TB breeders.

If a race breeder could accidentally breed for jumping, it should be equally possible to intentionally breed TBs for jumping–since we do know the lines that work. But the real fact is that no one wants to do the generational breeding that would be required because the US government and most of our state governments do not support or foster horse breeding and the market just isn’t there. Most of government considers horses luxuries and not agricultural production–or at least my USDA does.

[zipperfoot]

I’m trying to concentrate some of those TB jumping lines (Tourbillon et al) in our very small-scale TB breeding operation. It’s getting harder and harder to do, as these lines are becoming very difficult to find, at least in North America. Currently on foal watch for a baby who will have 5 crosses to Tourbillon.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7587134]
Supershorty’s mare has a sire that stood out as a potential jumping sire many years ago. It was very obvious from his pedigree that he had lines that were jumping proven. And when the breeder doubled up on Olden Times, those lines were reinforced. We’ve lost many of those sire lines because of changes in US racing–and the paucity of US sport TB breeders.

If a race breeder could accidentally breed for jumping, it should be equally possible to intentionally breed TBs for jumping–since we do know the lines that work. But the real fact is that no one wants to do the generational breeding that would be required because the US government and most of our state governments do not support or foster horse breeding and the market just isn’t there. Most of government considers horses luxuries and not agricultural production–or at least my USDA does.[/QUOTE]

It isn’t that hard to find to good lines. I have this mare that came off the track…but is a very old style type of TB mare. Her dam lines are what I wanted and sire line isn’t bad as AP Indy horses are doing well now in performance. She was NOT cheap off the track either. Mary Hazzard (after seeing her jump in a clinic) is after me to cross her with her stallion Mystic Replica (a sports bred TB). If you look at the lines…I have little doubt that such offspring would jump a big course. It would have a number of very good TB jumping lines condensed–especially Relic, and both parents can jump (and move). It is just a matter of if I want a full TB offspring…and cross my fingers that I get a filly. I’m inclined to do it next year.

My other TB mares in my breeding program were bred to jump–race over fences. The TB sire of one for example has produced multiple MD Hunt cup horses–including a few winners. Her dam is also the dam of my young cross who with dressage breeding from the WB side, just jumped around his first 3* in eventing…and easily jumps 1.4 meter courses. If he wasn’t such a good event horse…I could have sold him as jumper.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mystic+replica

http://www.pedigreequery.com/rockstina

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7587129]
I haven’t read all of the posts, but what puzzles me is why a horse that’s 50-50 WB/TB (pretty easy to find these days) is always referred to as a “warmblood” when it has just as much TB blood. Also, if TBs kill the jump, why do so many WBs have such a high percentage of TB blood?

Disclosure: TB fan (but also believe that a good horse is a good horse, regardless of bloodlines or breed).[/QUOTE]

Firstly, and obviously, a Tb has to be a Tb, no other breed allowed.

Secondly,
The Tb’s that made up the % were hand selected stallions and were a very few. They were not TB’s in general. They were selected because they had the talent and could reliably throw it. If you look at Wb pedigrees you see the same Tb’s over and over again.
But again this is a breeders forum and it shocks me that people will not think past the obvious. It always turns into a horse version of the intelligent “Ford vs Chev” debate.
Of course there are Tb’s that can jump but because the majority are not selected for it, then majority will not reliable carry those genes. NH horses being the exception.
ALL breeding is made up of the selection of the traits that you want and choosing those animals with those traits. If they are not chosen, they will be accidental and that is what happens when modern OTTB can jump a decent course. And a 1.4m course is not common for most horses. Maybe 1.4m but not the course.
At the heart of this debate is not Tb’s or Wb’s but breeding philosophy. Some think that a breed will have certain traits even if they are not selected and bred for. Most Tb’s in NA are bred for a short race life span and it is business. MOST are not bred for the sport of jumping, even if some can.
Even the European Tb people have a very different paradigm for breeding and goals. I would argue a NH horse to be a starting place for breeding jumpers, as a group but they are selected different from the majority of horses here.

[Elles]

Actually I did not start this topic to discuss TB horses but to discuss the TB / warmblood cross. There are people who think that some warmblood types could do with the refining of a TB. But many people fear that the ability to jump will be affected by doing so.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Elles;7587330]
Actually I did not start this topic to discuss TB horses but to discuss the TB / warmblood cross. There are people who think that some warmblood types could do with the refining of a TB. But many people fear that the ability to jump will be affected by doing so.[/QUOTE]

It depends on the TB crossed—just as anything. Heraldik was a TB sire of a number of top level (recent) jumpers. Hand in Glove was the sire of Jaguar Mail (whose dam also had significant TB blood). Jaguar Mail jumped in the 2008 Olympics. There are others…but a lot depends on WHICH TB you breed to…just as any other sire. And finding that right TB is hard. One can look at some of the high blood WB sires as well…but I think finding one that brings refinement can be tough as well.

Favoritas is one who is currently breeding and producing good jumpers.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;7587330]
Actually I did not start this topic to discuss TB horses but to discuss the TB / warmblood cross. There are people who think that some warmblood types could do with the refining of a TB. But many people fear that the ability to jump will be affected by doing so.[/QUOTE]

I think there are many Wb’s that are refined enough already. Look at the recent stallion licencing and you will see some horses that could actually use some bone, IMO. There are old types around but they are not as common in the recent generations. The right Tb adds some great traits but some of those traits are already found in refined Wb’s. If I was breeding an eventer, then I would defiantly go with a Tb stallion on a Wb mare.
There are a few TB stallions in NA that would not kill a jump for sure and would add lots of good things to certain mares. These are proven and have offspring that help you to decide what your adding to the mix. And in a generation or two, these crosses would probably show even more potential than the F1. I think the reason they are not used more varies but is not due to lack of talent as in comparison to many of the WB stallions in NA.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7587424]
I think there are many Wb’s that are refined enough already. Look at the recent stallion licencing and you will see some horses that could actually use some bone, IMO. There are old types around but they are not as common in the recent generations. The right Tb adds some great traits but some of those traits are already found in refined Wb’s. If I was breeding an eventer, then I would defiantly go with a Tb stallion on a Wb mare.
There are a few TB stallions in NA that would not kill a jump for sure and would add lots of good things to certain mares. These are proven and have offspring that help you to decide what your adding to the mix. And in a generation or two, these crosses would probably show even more potential than the F1. I think the reason they are not used more varies but is not due to lack of talent as in comparison to many of the WB stallions in NA.[/QUOTE]

OP is in Holland I believe. I don’t know what refining stallions they have available there.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7587441]
OP is in Holland I believe. I don’t know what refining stallions they have available there.[/QUOTE]

http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idcat=32 This group has some fairly high standards for the jump…

Also the Irish.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7587494]
http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idcat=32 This group has some fairly high standards for the jump…

Also the Irish.[/QUOTE]

They do but they don’t ask the TB stallions to jump the same at their approval because they can’t.

They get the jump from the mother and want the refinement ,blood and reflexes from the TB Stallion.

What they lose from the TB stallion ,they hope to regain in the following generations.

[Elles]

Talking about refinement is also very much talking about reflexes and temperament.