TB kills the jump?

[Jackie_Cochran]

About your comment Omare. I think the problem that this discussion has brought up that WITH THE WARMBLOOD MARE LINES UNDER DISCUSSION, the attempt to meld the “power jump” with the “cat-like jump” has failed for most recent F1 crosses.

I also assume that there are conformational differences between at least two of the TB’s methods of getting over the jumps. The TB power jumps use the sheer athletic ability and strength of that type of TB to get over a tall jump. From reading this discussion I am convinced that the TBs who can do the “cat-like” jumps ALSO have a peculiar conformation in BOTH the fore quarter and hind quarter. I suspect (ie. I have no proof and no way of getting proof) that the “cat-like” jumping ability involves the scapula/humerus joint and muscles and croup conformation, possibly an ability that came from the “native” English mares who contributed to the TB. If the TB speed gene comes from the British native ponies why couldn’t the pony ability to do “cat-like” jumps come from there? Two different genes &/or genetic complexes, possibly on different chromosomes (not “linked”), one that adds greatly to the sheer speed and athletic ability of the TB, and the other, that is not quite so fast, that enables many TBs to jump in a “cat-like” manner.

EventerAJ, good for you for putting your money where your mouth is. The horse jumping world needs more people like you to save the “jump” that still shows up in American TBs. I wish you all the luck in the world with your horses! Who knows, YOU may be the breeder that starts purpose breeding that saves and concentrates the American TB jumping abilities by breeding good jumping horses and PROVING it in performance. May your mares’ lines last for centuries.

[Maren]

Quote:
I think this is important to remember no matter what the breed. Performance doesn’t happen on paper. That’s not to say the possibility isn’t THERE, but it still needs to be demonstrated in some fashion or it’s all hypothesis. It’s great to take a leap of faith if you believe in it strongly, but you cannot expect everyone else to share your vision until it’s proven.

Thank you AJ, exactly what I tried to say. And I think I remember that colt

So really, while I may sound overly critical, as I said before, I too use TBs. I don’t think the generalization of “jump killer” applies to them across the board. But one has to be careful, no doubt.

As a side note - I am just now finished the top 10 pedigrees of Luhmühlen, have Rolex and Badminton done, I’ll post the website when done and then at elast from an eventing perspective, we can go back to pedigrees.

[Elles]

And guess what, Cor de la Bryere is 65% xx/ox:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/6

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7625756]
I think this is important to remember no matter what the breed. Performance doesn’t happen on paper. That’s not to say the possibility isn’t THERE, but it still needs to be demonstrated in some fashion or it’s all hypothesis. It’s great to take a leap of faith if you believe in it strongly, but you cannot expect everyone else to share your vision until it’s proven.

I, for one, am taking that “risk” of the TB, and willingly. I started with my TB mare (Northern Dancer granddaughter, btw) that has proven herself with a big jump, gallop, super sound and super smart. I wanted another eventer just like her. I didn’t know how she’d cross with a WB, but I have much more experience with TB breeding. I studied stallions and their offspring, their conformational traits, and I selected a young G2-winning TB stallion for my mare with a phenotype and pedigree that suited. His oldest progeny were just hitting the track, so they hadn’t had a chance at a sport career. I had no way to know for sure if this stallion had “jump” or if his offspring had jump. But I liked what he put on the ground, at least conformationally. I relied on my mare for the jump…and on my belief that an athletic TB can most likely get around CCI2*, so if the mare added to that I might get another Advanced horse.

Unlike a lot of bickering and posturing on both sides of this thread (not you, Maren!) I did put my money where my mouth is. I believe in TBs for the upper levels of eventing, and that’s what I bred for myself. Is my colt a likely commercial success? No, probably not. But I didn’t breed him to make a profit, I bred him to be my next Advanced event horse. He still has many years before I’ll know if I made the right decision, but I’m happy enough with him so far. He doesn’t have a low chest, or a steep hind end, or any other nonsense that’s been perpetuated as the “TB breed standard” on this thread. He looks fine for what he is, a yearling TB event horse.

To add to that, this winter I purchased a 4 y/o OTTB filly by the same sire as my colt (from the sire’s first crop). Guess what? She can jump. Now maybe that’s from the unproven dam, or the damsire, or elsewhere in the 50% genes she doesn’t share with my colt. But at least I know the TB sire isn’t a “jump killer” for this one.

Now, carry on with the pedigree generalizations, hypothetical what-ifs, what-nots, and mud-slinging. I realize my n=1 is not statistically significant, but at least it’s an opportunity to prove or disprove my hypothesis.[/QUOTE]

(Feel free to skip over first 2 paras)

Bickering and posturing on both sides? Why do I bother to put up links to current and past jumpers then? I’ve even used my own mare as an example of a good TB in the past and bayhawk thought it was hilarious that I showed a picture of her jumping 3’3", when it was a picture from a show at training level in eventing. Someone even tried to declare that I hadn’t shown the mare at all! She is not in the USCTA database because I had only registered myself – I didn’t register her also. As of 2005 both horses and riders must be registered for someone to be a member, per Jennifer Hardwick of the USCTA. Fwiw she was a mare with a lot of scope, and could jump well over 6 feet. She was a talented jumper.

Personally, I am not interested in breeding. However, I am interested, as a rider and potential customer, in the RESULTS of breeding. I’ve owned ONE mare that I thought was worth breeding, she died shortly after the birth of her foal and I am not interested in breeding another horse. Nor am I interested in telling particular people what they should breed. People should breed what they like.

Congrats on your mare AJ. She looks good. What is her pedigree? Do you have any conformation shots?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7625758]
"The problem seems to be finding TB jumping lines whose “method” over the jumps does not interfere with the WB dam lines “method” over jumps. "

This is an interesting point–the mechanics/source of the jump for a cat-like jumper vs the tradition “power” jumper have I assume got to be different and therefore challege how they should be gentically blended so to speak. (compare a shutterfly/authetic /pialotta vs a berlin or cumano (the other extreme))

For the cat like jumper–where does the jump come from mecahnically? I dont think big hinds quarters necessarily–I wondered if it had something to do with angles of the hip/ crop and also the hind leg angle–that is, do more open angles generate more spring with less effort combined with the speed of the hind leg reaction time at push off- generating more power? I wonder perhaps if the speed the front legs strike the ground at take off may be a factor generaing powqer for the cat like jumper as the front legs do take a role in generating force at take off (i was surprised at reading how many pounds of force are generated on the front legs at take off).

Or is it all about muscle fiber-type and nothing to do with skeletal conformation?(Which again seems counter intuitive as we stay away from the sprinter type conformationally -yet what about muscle type they provide?)[/QUOTE]

I would think it would have to do both with skeletal structure and muscle type, as well as strength. Neurological traits probably factor in too.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7625737]
Then there are horses like Big Ben who were an anomaly and jumped with high heads, and could still clear the sticks…but I doubt we would chose to breed that style, just the ability.[/QUOTE]

I’ve started this post so many times over the last 40 pages and keep deleting it before posting it as the conversation keeps going back and forth.

But I’m going to post now, and add up here at the top that there’s a whole “nother” issue with TBs in sport (and this applies to all breeds really)…find me a trainer these days who can recognize scope in an unconventional jumper (or even marginally-less-than-ideal jumper). They still exist, of course, especially in the older generation of trainers, but the young trainer who doesn’t think that a horse has to jump like Rox Dene do a GP course is a rare bird indeed. And that does the TB breed in particular no great favor.

After reading page after page after page of this thread, I will say that one of my chief complaints of the pro-TB sentiment is that it sounds like many of the TB proponents think that the TB of today is the same as the TB of yesterday.

Both types of horses have evolved greatly from where they were even 30 years ago. Saying otherwise negates decades of selective breeding to get to where we are today. Going back to the OP, I don’t believe that TB blood can add scope (because the cream-of-the-crop WBs already have as much scope as an UL jumper needs), and at best have the potential to “NOT take away scope” and at worst - actually take away scope. If TBs had been bred for jumping in mass numbers (like WBs - particularly in Europe where there’s legit access to 1.60m shows and classes) then I would think they could absolutely add jump. But the introduction of TB blood seems typically to be looking for other qualities. As it stands today, TBs in the upper level JUMPER ring are the exception and not the rule. But to be fair, in North America (where the bulk of TBs live), the HORSE that makes it to the 1.60m jumper ring is also the exception and not the rule. And that’s as much because of the cost to get them there as it is the animal someone is sitting on.

Before you think I’m an anti-TB type, my OTTB jumped around an FEI GP two weeks ago and was entered in his first World Cup Qualifier (1.60m) class. I scratched after walking the course because it was set large and I realized that he needs more experience jumping 1.50m+ square oxers from the base…something he just doesn’t naturally “get”. Which brings me to one of my key issues with TBs as upper level (1.60m) jumpers today. They’re not typically built to jump the tricky trappy courses that course designers set nowadays. I watched the (all other) WBs jump half those oxers from deep spots with nary an issue. Like Supershorty mentioned about her mare, my guy is MUCH happier galloping those jumps from a slight gap (in part because he’s one of the TBs who uses, as mentioned earlier, more brute jumping ability than catlike grace). Which doesn’t exactly fly over a 1.60m course when you’ve got a 2m+ spread on an oxer heading into or coming out of a 1-stride and in/out of another related distance…that’s the recipe for rails (at best). And there are rarely more than a fence or two that my guy “gets” to jump the way he likes.

I love my horse. And I mean LOVE my horse. He’s got the best work ethic and biggest heart of any horse I’ve ever owned. He typifies everything great anyone has ever said about TBs. But I would never ever try to BREED what he is. Because he outperforms his conformation and his natural tendency and in that respect he’s a freak of nature. I LOVE listening to the commentary when we show, and the murmur that goes around the crowd when they announce that he’s a TB off of the track. But boy, I would also LOVE to have a horse bred to jump a 1.60m x 2.2m oxer from the base. And THAT is where I think the WBs have greatly overtaken the TBs. And I’m not a skilled enough “conformationist” to understand hind end angles enough to point out why, but I believe that the ability to explode from underneath a jump while simultaneously carrying enough energy to get across the width is the primary reason why WBs have an advantage at the 1.60m level as a very broad generalization.

And I guess I just don’t understand why TBs have to be “the best at everything.” No horse is! Are there TBs that can give WBs a run for their money - OF COURSE! But if you’re looking at 2 groups of 100 horses, one jumper-bred WBs and the other OTTBs, where do you think you’re more likely to find a true 1.60m horse? And the same story goes for breeding. If you have a well-understood line of competitive 1.60m horses and a line of horses that is FAR less comprehensively known in the jumper world - where would you prefer to roll your dice? I’ll offer one thought - as a breeder are you trying to improve the breed as a whole with less emphasis put on your own offspring? Or are you breeding to sell your youngsters for the most amount of money possible? I would suggest that perhaps the breeders breeding for their own mounts (and not sales horses for the market) are going to be the core of the TB revival (if one happens) because as many have pointed out, direct TB blood (meaning WB/TB crosses) doesn’t seem to bring in anywhere near the dollars that WBs out of the top lines do.

My own perspective - as a rider and buyer of young horses, I’d much rather place my bet on the pool with a high percentage of capable horses. Doesn’t mean I’m always going to bet right, but I feel like my odds are higher coming from horses BRED TO DO MY SPORT over horses that AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH AT THE SPORT THEY WERE BRED FOR. Bringing back bloodlines bred specifically for jumping in the TB world AND getting them under riders that showcase those talents could, of course, change the story greatly. But that doesn’t exist the way it does in the WB world right now. It’s all well and good to say, “well if…” but it doesn’t have any real world application until someone puts it back into practice and that practice gains enough momentum to get sport-bred-TBs back into the big rings.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7626125]
I’ve started this post so many times over the last 40 pages and keep deleting it before posting it as the conversation keeps going back and forth.

But I’m going to post now, and add up here at the top that there’s a whole “nother” issue with TBs in sport (and this applies to all breeds really)…find me a trainer these days who can recognize scope in an unconventional jumper (or even marginally-less-than-ideal jumper). They still exist, of course, especially in the older generation of trainers, but the young trainer who doesn’t think that a horse has to jump like Rox Dene do a GP course is a rare bird indeed. And that does the TB breed in particular no great favor.

After reading page after page after page of this thread, I will say that one of my chief complaints of the pro-TB sentiment is that it sounds like many of the TB proponents think that the TB of today is the same as the TB of yesterday.

Both types of horses have evolved greatly from where they were even 30 years ago. Saying otherwise negates decades of selective breeding to get to where we are today. Going back to the OP, I don’t believe that TB blood can add scope (because the cream-of-the-crop WBs already have as much scope as an UL jumper needs), and at best have the potential to “NOT take away scope” and at worst - actually take away scope. If TBs had been bred for jumping in mass numbers (like WBs - particularly in Europe where there’s legit access to 1.60m shows and classes) then I would think they could absolutely add jump. But the introduction of TB blood seems typically to be looking for other qualities. As it stands today, TBs in the upper level JUMPER ring are the exception and not the rule. But to be fair, in North America (where the bulk of TBs live), the HORSE that makes it to the 1.60m jumper ring is also the exception and not the rule. And that’s as much because of the cost to get them there as it is the animal someone is sitting on.

Before you think I’m an anti-TB type, my OTTB jumped around an FEI GP two weeks ago and was entered in his first World Cup Qualifier (1.60m) class. I scratched after walking the course because it was set large and I realized that he needs more experience jumping 1.50m+ square oxers from the base…something he just doesn’t naturally “get”. Which brings me to one of my key issues with TBs as upper level (1.60m) jumpers today. They’re not typically built to jump the tricky trappy courses that course designers set nowadays. I watched the (all other) WBs jump half those oxers from deep spots with nary an issue. Like Supershorty mentioned about her mare, my guy is MUCH happier galloping those jumps from a slight gap (in part because he’s one of the TBs who uses, as mentioned earlier, more brute jumping ability than catlike grace). Which doesn’t exactly fly over a 1.60m course when you’ve got a 2m+ spread on an oxer heading into or coming out of a 1-stride and in/out of another related distance…that’s the recipe for rails (at best). And there are rarely more than a fence or two that my guy “gets” to jump the way he likes.

I love my horse. And I mean LOVE my horse. He’s got the best work ethic and biggest heart of any horse I’ve ever owned. He typifies everything great anyone has ever said about TBs. But I would never ever try to BREED what he is. Because he outperforms his conformation and his natural tendency and in that respect he’s a freak of nature. I LOVE listening to the commentary when we show, and the murmur that goes around the crowd when they announce that he’s a TB off of the track. But boy, I would also LOVE to have a horse bred to jump a 1.60m x 2.2m oxer from the base. And THAT is where I think the WBs have greatly overtaken the TBs. And I’m not a skilled enough “conformationist” to understand hind end angles enough to point out why, but I believe that the ability to explode from underneath a jump while simultaneously carrying enough energy to get across the width is the primary reason why WBs have an advantage at the 1.60m level as a very broad generalization.

And I guess I just don’t understand why TBs have to be “the best at everything.” No horse is! Are there TBs that can give WBs a run for their money - OF COURSE! But if you’re looking at 2 groups of 100 horses, one jumper-bred WBs and the other OTTBs, where do you think you’re more likely to find a true 1.60m horse? And the same story goes for breeding. If you have a well-understood line of competitive 1.60m horses and a line of horses that is FAR less comprehensively known in the jumper world - where would you prefer to roll your dice? I’ll offer one thought - as a breeder are you trying to improve the breed as a whole with less emphasis put on your own offspring? Or are you breeding to sell your youngsters for the most amount of money possible? I would suggest that perhaps the breeders breeding for their own mounts (and not sales horses for the market) are going to be the core of the TB revival (if one happens) because as many have pointed out, direct TB blood (meaning WB/TB crosses) doesn’t seem to bring in anywhere near the dollars that WBs out of the top lines do.

My own perspective - as a rider and buyer of young horses, I’d much rather place my bet on the pool with a high percentage of capable horses. Doesn’t mean I’m always going to bet right, but I feel like my odds are higher coming from horses BRED TO DO MY SPORT over horses that AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH AT THE SPORT THEY WERE BRED FOR. Bringing back bloodlines bred specifically for jumping in the TB world AND getting them under riders that showcase those talents could, of course, change the story greatly. But that doesn’t exist the way it does in the WB world right now. It’s all well and good to say, “well if…” but it doesn’t have any real world application until someone puts it back into practice and that practice gains enough momentum to get sport-bred-TBs back into the big rings.[/QUOTE]

Perrrrrrfect ! Great post !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7626061]
(Feel free to skip over first 2 paras)

Bickering and posturing on both sides? Why do I bother to put up links to current and past jumpers then? I’ve even used my own mare as an example of a good TB in the past and bayhawk thought it was hilarious that I showed a picture of her jumping 3’3", when it was a picture from a show at training level in eventing. Someone even tried to declare that I hadn’t shown the mare at all! She is not in the USCTA database because I had only registered myself – I didn’t register her also. As of 2005 both horses and riders must be registered for someone to be a member, per Jennifer Hardwick of the USCTA. Fwiw she was a mare with a lot of scope, and could jump well over 6 feet. She was a talented jumper.

Personally, I am not interested in breeding. However, I am interested, as a rider and potential customer, in the RESULTS of breeding. I’ve owned ONE mare that I thought was worth breeding, she died shortly after the birth of her foal and I am not interested in breeding another horse. Nor am I interested in telling particular people what they should breed. People should breed what they like.

Congrats on your mare AJ. She looks good. What is her pedigree? Do you have any conformation shots?[/QUOTE]

Stop using my name troll…

I did and do think it hilarious that you brag and brag and brag and act as if you know the first thing about breeding and competition when you have put one foal on the ground and have jumped 3’ - 3’ .

1.3 million tb foals born since 1978…36,111 born every year on average for each and every year for the last 36 years , yet next to nothing to show for it.

All I hear from you and others is that there is such super blood for the sport behind these race bred Tb’s but yet again…it must be invisible to the rest of us and only visible to you , because it never seems to appear except in your mind of course.

[Elles]

PNWjumper how many wambloods get to jumping 1.50 at all do you think? So many well bred warmbloods never get to that point…

[Maren]

Everything PNWJumper said. Excellent post. Thanks!!

[Maren]

Quote:

PNWjumper how many wambloods get to jumping 1.50 at all do you think? So many well bred warmbloods never get to that point…

Your point being …?

[Elles]

So the horse that PWNjumper is talking about is considered a jump killer? Haha!

[out_west]

Fabulous post by PNWjumper. No one knows if the horse PNW talks about could PASS on jump. I had a dressage mare who ranked third in the country at her Hann. inspection. Great ride and great performer. I bred her twice with two very so-so foals. Although I have bred 7 foals in my life I do NOT consider myself a breeder. If I were to breed again, I would go to someone like Bayhawk (if I wanted a jumper) for as much advice as I could get. I had a super mare, but knew nothing about her marelines etc. I know enough now to know I would not breed this mare. Again, just because a horse performs very well does not mean that they will pass on that performance ability.

[ladyj79]

To quote Homer Simpson in honor of the hilariously dubbed “Thoroughbred Jihadists”: “facts are meaningless: they can be used to prove anything even remotely true!”

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7626279]
To quote Homer Simpson in honor of the hilariously dubbed “Thoroughbred Jihadists”: “facts are meaningless: they can be used to prove anything even remotely true!”[/QUOTE]

LOL…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7624820]
Agreed. I do hope TBs are bred for jumping more often than they are now, although I don’t know if that will happen, with racing being their main raisin d’être. Still, jumper breeding will very likely need still more TB blood, so one can hope…

Can you tell me the titles? I just ordered The Making of the Modern Warmblood and am interested in other books as well.[/QUOTE]

The Perfect Horse may be read on-line:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QdFCAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:the+intitle:perfect+intitle:horse&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QUSfU6nlHZProASVv4LwBA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

That book was written before the Hambletonian-breds completely absorbed and overwhelmed the earlier Morgan trotting breeding in solidifying the Standardbred breed. Early pedigrees of American horses were not always accurate and /or were fabricated to reflect the chronicler’s preferences and prejudices.

Often times the true pedigree of a great progenitor of a family of american horses that was absorbed into a breed pre 1860 should read: unknown for sure.

books.google.com is a great source of mid 19th century - early 20th century books on horse breeds free to read online.

I also suggest Daphne Machin Goodall
https://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=intitle:horses+intitle:of+intitle:the+intitle:world+inauthor:daphne+inauthor:machin+inauthor:goodall&num=10&gws_rd=ssl

Though you’ll have to buy that one. Extensive research into breed origins.

[D_BaldStockings]

…and PNW Jumper,

I think you should sell that OTTB jumper, as all it has going for it is temperament and work ethic.
Clearly, you would be happier on an able WB jumper who could get the distances with ease.

Making apologies for one’s mount is the saddest thing a rider can do.
Both of you should be happy with your partner.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7626375]
…and PNW Jumper,

I think you should sell that OTTB jumper, as all it has going for it is temperament and work ethic.
Clearly, you would be happier on an able WB jumper who could get the distances with ease.

Making apologies for one’s mount is the saddest thing a rider can do.
Both of you should be happy with your partner.[/QUOTE]

“Making apologies” ? You can’t be serious ?

She understands the reality of her ride. She understands the positive things about her horse as well as his limitations. That’s called a real horseman where I come from !

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7626375]
…and PNW Jumper,

I think you should sell that OTTB jumper, as all it has going for it is temperament and work ethic.
Clearly, you would be happier on an able WB jumper who could get the distances with ease.

Making apologies for one’s mount is the saddest thing a rider can do.
Both of you should be happy with your partner.[/QUOTE]

Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of one’s mount at the level that PNW Jumper is riding at is essential to making safe decisions to protect both horse and rider. I did not think PNW Jumper was making apologies for her mount one bit. She was just saying that she knows how he goes and that they weren’t prepared for the course that she walked. Thank God for people who know their horses enough to be able to talk about their strengths and deficiencies. Furthermore, thank God for people who know when they should fold instead of YOLOing it around a course outside of their abilities on that given day.

[Elles]

We do not know the pedigree or the age of the horse. Would you please be so kind to tell us PWN Jumper? Thank you!