TB kills the jump?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;7624823]
The why is easily answered, no? There is no directed TB sport horse program in the US, or anywhere as a matter of fact.
The arguments on this topic here regarding the WHY are clear to me. Fix it, if you want to. I use Tbs, I have nothing to be ashamed of for saying it. But I don’t breed 1.60m show jumpers. If I were, I would not use TBs as much as I do now. Simply because I can’t afford to gamble away when better, more proven alternatives are available. Exactly what I said to viney about LC’s great pedigree and her point that careful breeding would probably produce good jumpers from him. I agree, it would probably. If you can afford to play that game, please do it and proof your point. I simply can’t.

Honest question re this comment:
AND the TB will not need infusions of outside blood to become the best jumpers in the world again.

Where will you find the jumper blood in the TB population that will help a closed stud book to re"invent" something that has been gone for a long time?
I know what I am speaking about - I am associated with another closed stud book and I can tell you from first hand experience that fixing something that is gone, in a closed book, is incredibly difficult.[/QUOTE]

OK, then why do you think there is no TB jumper program in the US? Lack of jumper breeders in the US, lack of interest in using anything but European horses, or lack of talent in the TB pool? I think it’s the first two.

I understand the difficulties in using TBs. I do not agree that lack of talent on the part of TBs is part of the problem. There are a lot of jumping lines in the US and elsewhere that still exist. The chief difficulty is in finding the right horses, at affordable prices, since most are race bred.

[Elles]

Is this a horse you bred Bayhawk:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rolling+rock5

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;7624802]
To answer Elles question on other “improvement” breeds other than TB/Arab for adding lightness etc within 150 years of warmblood breeding - the Trakehner, the Anglo Norman, and more than your occasional Barb and Spanish stallion. They all existed already 150 years ago. I don’t have the time to pull up old images, but you seem to be very good at it. You’ll find them. Check out Trakehner Main Stud stallions from 150 years ago and you’ll see horses that look exactly like their counterparts from today. And yes, the TB, but even more so the Arabian horse was an important factor for the development of the Trakehner, however, it also always clearly carried the traits of its true original source, the Schweike. And THAT was never a heavy old warmblood that looked like anything in your pictures. Not all warmbloods come from tractor-siblings form the 1900s.

Nobody here argues that the TB was not important for the evolution of the modern warmblood horse. Nobody!

Last attempt with GAP: Yes, occasionally you will find a TB in a 1.60m class. In fact I just bred to a son of one (and am, ironically, the ONLY breeder to use that stallion in Europe this year - tells us something about the popularity). My point is that the occasional handful thrown into the mix of dominance of other warmbloods, and the relative lack of Anglo-bred Holsteiners, KWPN, SF etc in today’s show jumping arenas should at least be acceptable as a hint at the fact that TBs are rare at international top level show jumping. Sigh.[/QUOTE]

Sure Traks and Anglo Normans were used, but both were having TB blood added all the while at the time and even today (Anglo Normans were merged into the Selle Francais Studbook).

[Elles]

I am wondering where the barbs / Spanish horses are in the pedigrees?

Adding TB / Arabian blood to the Trakehner was in the past even more often done than nowadays but there are exceptions: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=77528

But looking at Flaneur in this pedigree we see Fetysz ox, Faschingsnacht is by Pretal xx and in his dam we find Hector xx, Sylvia ox and Hagen xx. Furter we find in Marke the horses Schonbrunn xx, Marsworth xx, Muros xx and Friponnier xx. In Hexenschuss we find Anarch xx, Hector xx and Blue Blood xx. In Feldrose there is Perfectionist xx and Metellus xx. In Pythagoras there is Perfectionist xx and Red Prince xx. Und so weiter, und so weiter.

[Maren]

GAP:

Lack of jumper breeders in the US, lack of interest in using anything but European horses, or lack of talent in the TB pool? I think it’s the first two.

I’m not so sure about the second point, I know a lot of US and Canadian based riders that would be happy to buy North American first. Definitely 1st point, lack of talent in today’s pool I would say also factors in. The TBs us normal people can afford are often not in riding horse type or jump ability. If you guys still had a noteworthy steeplechase population that might be different. The purpose-bred long distance horse that jumps is on the decline (not only in the US of course), yet that would be the pool I would (and have) look(ed).

I didn’t say no more TB blood was added to the breeds. But TB, especially for the Trakehner, was not the most important source of outside blood in terms of success for riding.

Elles: way back when, way before 150 years in most cases. Used as so called “improvement” sires. Interestingly, they didn’t always work out so well. The best cross for this particular breed in terms of long-lasting effects passed down for generations were Arabians, then TBs. Both were infused through mares and stallions and the Main Stud even maintained a small purebred blood herd in order to have its own supply of the lines they wanted. Their biggest and most “recent” import was the bay Perfectionist xx from the UK (recent being prior to WWII). No other TB in the history of that breed became as influential, but that again, is attributed to the sudden change in breeding goal - from work horse and cavalry mount to sports.

[grayarabpony]

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. The top jumpers here are almost almost imported from Europe, and American breeders use European lines. I disagree about the jumping talent being gone from the TB. Once a horse shows it cannot race it’s generally not worth that much, so it wouldn’t be THAT hard to find an affordable one.

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7624820]
Agreed. I do hope TBs are bred for jumping more often than they are now, although I don’t know if that will happen, with racing being their main raisin d’être. Still, jumper breeding will very likely need still more TB blood, so one can hope…

Can you tell me the titles? I just ordered The Making of the Modern Warmblood and am interested in other books as well.[/QUOTE]

Probably the best book I’ve read on how Americans bred horses in the 19th century is “The Perfect Horse” by William H. Murray. I just looked it up on Amazon and it is available in paperback and on the Kindle. This book’s breeding section is mainly about breeding Morgans (the perfect horse to Murray) and also has a very good description of the type of horse that was in demand for light harness/riding/light farm work back then in the middle of the 19th century.

Louis Taylor’s “The Horse America Made” is pretty good at describing what the ASB people were breeding for. There are many used copies available, look it up on Amazon. According to Taylor the ASB breeders were out to make a saddle horse that, to them, was MUCH superior to the TB because the ASB’s could do the easy gaits and was much more comfortable to ride all day. This book has good descriptions of the type of riding horse that many well off American riders preferred back when they were developed and today.

I’ve read others but they are either packed away or are books I borrowed to read and I can’t remember the titles.

I’ve also read the horse breeding sections of various “livestock encyclopedias” (sorry, they are all packed away so I can’t give you the titles) that were published in the 19th century. I have often found copies of these “livestock encyclopedias” in the libraries of the older state Universities.

Happy reading!

[grayarabpony]

Thanks!

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=Maren;7624823]
The why is easily answered, no? There is no directed TB sport horse program in the US, or anywhere as a matter of fact.
The arguments on this topic here regarding the WHY are clear to me. Fix it, if you want to. I use Tbs, I have nothing to be ashamed of for saying it. But I don’t breed 1.60m show jumpers. If I were, I would not use TBs as much as I do now. Simply because I can’t afford to gamble away when better, more proven alternatives are available. Exactly what I said to viney about LC’s great pedigree and her point that careful breeding would probably produce good jumpers from him. I agree, it would probably. If you can afford to play that game, please do it and proof your point. I simply can’t.

Honest question re this comment:
AND the TB will not need infusions of outside blood to become the best jumpers in the world again.

Where will you find the jumper blood in the TB population that will help a closed stud book to re"invent" something that has been gone for a long time?
I know what I am speaking about - I am associated with another closed stud book and I can tell you from first hand experience that fixing something that is gone, in a closed book, is incredibly difficult.[/QUOTE]

By going to the unfashionable TB race bloodlines in other countries. If I had the money to do this I would probably go to South America, where many colts who failed in Great Britain were sold in the early decades of the 20th century and went on to be strong producers with the TB mares bred in the various South American countries. These lines tend to be slower than the American TBs (at least not many are considered fast enough to run in the US classic races.) South America was not the only destination for these “failed” TB colts, it is just that my parents took me to TB racetracks in Chile and Uruguay so I am predisposed to appreciate the South American lines.

The books I got this information on (jumpers are not considered) are “The Functional Development of the Thoroughbred” and “The Typology of the Racehorse” both by Franco Varola, and both are available used on Amazon.

[Dressagelvr]

GAP asked

Can you quote where the book says that riding and driving warmbloods were divided early on?

From The Making of The Modern Warmblood, page 16, speaking of Hanover “The State Stud Celle was established in 1735. In its beginning, it already divided its stallions in three type categories - without actually licensing them: 1. The refined riding horse type 2. The heavier riding horse and lighter driving horse type, 3. The heavy driving horse type”.

Interestingly, elsewhere on the page states, “By 1776, the Celle stud had grown to the point where it transferred from the King to the government. More and more Thoroughbred stallions were imported-now directly from England rather than via Mecklenburg until by 1840, 1/3 of the stallions were Thoroughbred and the remaining two thirds were either half or quarter bred”.

[grayarabpony]

True, TBs were added in far before WW II and the introduction of the tractor.

I ordered that book and am looking forward to reading it!

[Elles]

http://www.trakehners-majurin.fi/english/news/news-archive.html
At the " Trakehner Stallion Approvals" in Neumünster, October 18 - 21.2012, the approved Polish-bred Trakehner stallion “Avatar” was named “best jumper” of the event. Avatar ( by Ajbek o/o Alana by Agar) is our Jasiolka’s half-brother.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1524105?levels=9 XX/OX percentage: 62,89%

Chaman http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/53145 XX/OX percentage: 58,98% twice has Alme Z in his pedigree http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/125 XX/OX percentage: 62,50%

[Maren]

Elles, Avatar is line bred 4 times to the Olympic show jumper Poprad. Are we going to assume that maybe THAT had more of impact on his jump than the TB in his background? That said - I value Mangan xx as a top notch sport horse sire, one we could have used very well in the West, except he lived at a time when there was no way to get him to the West.
There is virtually no WB on this planet without some TB in its background. We can then just close this entire discussion and say “that is where the jump comes from”.

And Avatar is very far away from showing his true qualities - he has just been started, has not been shown publicly yet. Besides, if you knew him in person, you would never peck him as a classic 1.60m show jumper - he is an event horse prototype and I hope will be proven as one under saddle in the future. He is one of the most exciting young stallions I’ve seen in a long time. That said - I think this is a great example of a horse you could cross on your high ranking show jumper mare family and actually NOT kill the jump

Jackie: Total agreement from me on the South Americans. Loved El im Cal xx.

Yes for all the hypothetical “jump” that is in the TB population today - you have to actually test it to see it, or else it’s all a mind game. And how to do that? I have no answer to that. Again, it boils down to money.

Just saying “the jump is there but nobody wants to ride/breed it” is the easy way out - that way you just never have to prove it in the flesh. I know many fellow Trakehner breeders who also like to live in the past and point out all the great performance achievemnts of the breed … however, if you can’t produce TODAY, then it all becomes an academic exercise, no?

[Jackie_Cochran]

Maren, while the South American sire lines should be useful “outcrosses” for developing jumpers in the European TB breeding lines, I was actually thinking about the South American TB MARES.

I got into studying horse breeding through wanting to breed Arabians. I worship mare lines. If the sport horse breeders find the South American TB mare lines that still have “the jump” they can perpetuate these mare lines and breed effective TB stallions for outcrossing that won’t kill the jump of the European WB mare lines. At least I am hoping this is so!

Warning, these mares may not be as beautiful as many breeders want, and their conformation may not be of the WB ideal. Such is life. The trick is to breed TB stallions from these mares that do reach the WB conformation ideals. Then the experimenting can begin, a process that takes decades.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;7625439]
Elles, Avatar is line bred 4 times to the Olympic show jumper Poprad. Are we going to assume that maybe THAT had more of impact on his jump than the TB in his background? That said - I value Mangan xx as a top notch sport horse sire, one we could have used very well in the West, except he lived at a time when there was no way to get him to the West.
There is virtually no WB on this planet without some TB in its background. We can then just close this entire discussion and say “that is where the jump comes from”.

And Avatar is very far away from showing his true qualities - he has just been started, has not been shown publicly yet. Besides, if you knew him in person, you would never peck him as a classic 1.60m show jumper - he is an event horse prototype and I hope will be proven as one under saddle in the future. He is one of the most exciting young stallions I’ve seen in a long time. That said - I think this is a great example of a horse you could cross on your high ranking show jumper mare family and actually NOT kill the jump

Jackie: Total agreement from me on the South Americans. Loved El im Cal xx.

Yes for all the hypothetical “jump” that is in the TB population today - you have to actually test it to see it, or else it’s all a mind game. And how to do that? I have no answer to that. Again, it boils down to money.

Just saying “the jump is there but nobody wants to ride/breed it” is the easy way out - that way you just never have to prove it in the flesh. I know many fellow Trakehner breeders who also like to live in the past and point out all the great performance achievemnts of the breed … however, if you can’t produce TODAY, then it all becomes an academic exercise, no?[/QUOTE]

No, it’s not an easy way out. I know the jump is still there because of the TBs that currently compete and the TBs that produce 1.6 m jumpers. Even because of my own mare. Saying that such horses is rare is not a good argument. Such horses are rare even among purpose bred WBs, not to mention horses that are race bred and hardly ever sought out as jumpers anymore. The point is that horses with that kind of talent are still out there – the jump is not gone. Have you been reading the examples given at all? Including examples of jumpers with American bloodlines, whose genes are still there in the sea of Americans Thoroughbreds.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. You may have missed my post where I said that I doubted that TBs will be bred for jumping. Some breeders will have to take a keen interest. The jumping gene pool can really use the diversity though. If no one finds and breeds these horses then there may be some jump killing because breeders may be forced to use less talented horses if they need to add TB blood. American breeders could find a niche where they could sell these horses to Europe.

I looked at the pedigree of Avatar and could only find Poprad twice, through Aspirant. Is the pedigree on horse telex correct? Plus, he is quite a bit further back than many of the TBs in the pedigree.

Avatar is quite inbred.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7625584]
Maren, while the South American sire lines should be useful “outcrosses” for developing jumpers in the European TB breeding lines, I was actually thinking about the South American TB MARES.

I got into studying horse breeding through wanting to breed Arabians. I worship mare lines. If the sport horse breeders find the South American TB mare lines that still have “the jump” they can perpetuate these mare lines and breed effective TB stallions for outcrossing that won’t kill the jump of the European WB mare lines. At least I am hoping this is so!

Warning, these mares may not be as beautiful as many breeders want, and their conformation may not be of the WB ideal. Such is life. The trick is to breed TB stallions from these mares that do reach the WB conformation ideals. Then the experimenting can begin, a process that takes decades.[/QUOTE]

What kind of pedigrees are you thinking of if I may ask so?

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=Elles;7625603]
What kind of pedigrees are you thinking of if I may ask so?[/QUOTE]

Sorry Elles, I do not know enough to answer your question. My main interest in life is the Arab, I just read the books on the other breeds to see how other breeds do it, and since I will never have enough money to breed TBs I have not gotten deep into TB pedigrees and performance abilities.

Get the Varola books, you really need to read both of his books I mentioned to understand what he is saying. He talks a lot on how failed British TB colts/stallions were “redeemed” when they got exported and bred to the much inferior (to British TB breeders) TB mare lines on other continents, colts and stallions with European classic breeding that just could not “make it” in racing &/or breeding for the European TB horse races.

Besides, Huaso, the world record high jump horse, was a CHILEAN TB, therefore by definition descended from European TB lines who did not make it in the much more competitive European TB racing scene. Huaso failed at winning competing against other Chilean TBs on the flat, therefore his talent for jumping did not come from the speed genes of the TB. His sheer athleticism and heart DID come from the racing TB lines, and believe me, he had to have heart to jump the highest officially recorded jump off all horse history TWICE in one day.

Jumping seems to be the default alternate competitive venue for TBs that just are not fast enough to win on the flat. TBs can jump, no doubt about that! The problem seems to be finding TB jumping lines whose “method” over the jumps does not interfere with the WB dam lines “method” over jumps.

I do not know which TB mare lines have “the jump”. All I know is that it is possible that the TB jump is still in existence in South American mare lines that never produced winners of the classic US and European races, TBs that are possibly slower, possibly not bred for just sprinting, and may have the lines the WB breeders need. Unfortunately it would take someone wealthy enough that has an excellent eye for a horse, but that hypothetical person might find what seems to have been bred out of the fastest lines of American and European TBs, in the Southern hemisphere, or possibly in the ex-Soviet/communist Eastern European TB lines. Basically any TB breeding program that has “failed” dam lines for producing winners of the classic US/European races may have what the European WB breeders are looking for in a TB outcross.

Just like different genetic lines of horses may do the trot different from other genetic lines of horses, I am becoming convinced through reading this discussion that there are different “jumps” among different lines of jumping horses. Since TBs started off from many different genetic lines with different talents there is no reason to assume that there is only one type of TB jump. What I am seeing is that there has been a type of TB jump that ADDED to the WB mare lines’ ability to jump, and that there is ANOTHER type of TB jump that DETRACTS from the WB mare lines “jump.”

[Foxtrot_s]

Case in point, from Jackie’s last paragraph, is Cor de la Bruyere (?)- he had an unmatched bascule and you could pick them out in a crowd, a style that has now spread over all books. Then there are horses like Big Ben who were an anomaly and jumped with high heads, and could still clear the sticks…but I doubt we would chose to breed that style, just the ability.

[EventerAJ]

@Maren;7625439

Yes for all the hypothetical “jump” that is in the TB population today - you have to actually test it to see it, or else it’s all a mind game. And how to do that? I have no answer to that. Again, it boils down to money.

I think this is important to remember no matter what the breed. Performance doesn’t happen on paper. That’s not to say the possibility isn’t THERE, but it still needs to be demonstrated in some fashion or it’s all hypothesis. It’s great to take a leap of faith if you believe in it strongly, but you cannot expect everyone else to share your vision until it’s proven.

I, for one, am taking that “risk” of the TB, and willingly. I started with my TB mare (Northern Dancer granddaughter, btw) that has proven herself with a big jump, gallop, super sound and super smart. I wanted another eventer just like her. I didn’t know how she’d cross with a WB, but I have much more experience with TB breeding. I studied stallions and their offspring, their conformational traits, and I selected a young G2-winning TB stallion for my mare with a phenotype and pedigree that suited. His oldest progeny were just hitting the track, so they hadn’t had a chance at a sport career. I had no way to know for sure if this stallion had “jump” or if his offspring had jump. But I liked what he put on the ground, at least conformationally. I relied on my mare for the jump…and on my belief that an athletic TB can most likely get around CCI2*, so if the mare added to that I might get another Advanced horse.

Unlike a lot of bickering and posturing on both sides of this thread (not you, Maren!) I did put my money where my mouth is. I believe in TBs for the upper levels of eventing, and that’s what I bred for myself. Is my colt a likely commercial success? No, probably not. But I didn’t breed him to make a profit, I bred him to be my next Advanced event horse. He still has many years before I’ll know if I made the right decision, but I’m happy enough with him so far. He doesn’t have a low chest, or a steep hind end, or any other nonsense that’s been perpetuated as the “TB breed standard” on this thread. He looks fine for what he is, a yearling TB event horse.

To add to that, this winter I purchased a 4 y/o OTTB filly by the same sire as my colt (from the sire’s first crop). Guess what? She can jump. Now maybe that’s from the unproven dam, or the damsire, or elsewhere in the 50% genes she doesn’t share with my colt. But at least I know the TB sire isn’t a “jump killer” for this one.

Now, carry on with the pedigree generalizations, hypothetical what-ifs, what-nots, and mud-slinging. I realize my n=1 is not statistically significant, but at least it’s an opportunity to prove or disprove my hypothesis.

[omare]

"The problem seems to be finding TB jumping lines whose “method” over the jumps does not interfere with the WB dam lines “method” over jumps. "

This is an interesting point–the mechanics/source of the jump for a cat-like jumper vs the tradition “power” jumper have I assume got to be different and therefore challege how they should be gentically blended so to speak. (compare a shutterfly/authetic /pialotta vs a berlin or cumano (the other extreme))

For the cat like jumper–where does the jump come from mecahnically? I dont think big hinds quarters necessarily–I wondered if it had something to do with angles of the hip/ crop and also the hind leg angle–that is, do more open angles generate more spring with less effort combined with the speed of the hind leg reaction time at push off- generating more power? I wonder perhaps if the speed the front legs strike the ground at take off may be a factor generaing powqer for the cat like jumper as the front legs do take a role in generating force at take off (i was surprised at reading how many pounds of force are generated on the front legs at take off).

Or is it all about muscle fiber-type and nothing to do with skeletal conformation?(Which again seems counter intuitive as we stay away from the sprinter type conformationally -yet what about muscle type they provide?)