TB kills the jump?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7624627]
I worked with more Holsteiners then you have, I have been a groom since 2008 at several big showjumping stables. I live now for 2.5 years in Holstein. My boots have been more in the Holsteiner mudd then yours. Working with over 6 years with more horses then I could have ever owned is giving me a better insight in what is going on in several area’s where I have worked.

TB’s don’t kill the jump, many breeders are scared for not getting their foals sold. The breeders quit breeding, we lost 25 % of the born foals in 10 years. Or they quit or they start using stallions that will produce foals that will be sold like Casall.[/QUOTE]

An important factor.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Well Bayhawk, it sounds to me that your excellent breed of excellent jumping horses has come to a problem (I’m using the phrase “your breed” because of your deep knowledge and concern.)

I was looking at some of the pictures of Holstein ancestors to see exactly what the TB blood did to the breed. Comparing the pictures of the ancestors to the pictures of modern day Holsteins, the TB lengthened the croup and changed the forehand. It is hard to judge the withers with extremely upright necks, but it looks like the TB moved the withers back and gave more slope to the shoulder. In other words the TB blood turned a carriage/light draft horse into a riding horse, showing all the conformational marks of a good riding horse, good shoulders, croup, etc… The Holstein breeders who sought to turn the Holstein into a riding horse SUCCEEDED with plentiful infusions of hot blood. They succeeded well enough that even several generations without new hot-blood crosses the Holstein is still a decent riding horse. This is impressive.

American breeders of American breeds have faced this problem for generations. ALL these breeds I am mentioning started off with an upgrade on American colonial mares by breeding to the TB (the gaited breeds through the Morgan and Standardbred.) The Quarter Horse breeders went back to the TB blood to make the bull-dog" QH more suitable for general riding. The gaited horse breeders (American Saddle Bred and Tennessee Walking Horse) did not have this luxury since the TB tends to “kill the gait.” The Standardbred did some re-introduction of hot blood (TB, Barb and Arabian) but that has been over a century ago, and now I doubt any Standardbred breeder would go to hot bloods since the Standardbred is a trotter/pacer and the modern TB blood/hot blood interferes with producing top speed at these gaits. The Morgan went to the American Saddlebred as an outcross to make a better riding horse probably because the Morgan was mainly developed as a harness trotter and a TB outcross might make a better riding horse but it would probably wipe out what makes a Morgan unique, especially its “trappy” trot, compact conformation, high head carriage, poweful neck, etc…

My point is that in using a TB or other outcross hot blood was often needed at first to get the breed going, but the American breeders realized that, if they wanted to keep the traits that the mare lines brought into the breed, among them good speedy trots, high action, easy gaits, and special types of personalities, they had to give up the TB outcross. The QH breeders were lucky, apparantly the TBs they outcrossed to did not totally “kill the cow-sense” and the TB sprinter lines did not ruin the QH type and conformation.

Your breed is going to have to give up something to keep doing the infusions of the TB blood. The particular and extremely effective jumping talent of your mare lines is not crossing well with the modern TB lines. Most TBs can jump, they jump like a TB and often rely on their sheer physical ability to get over the unexpectedly challenging fences. Your breed has specialized lines with specialized physical abilities, just like the American STBs, ASBs, TWHs, and Morgans had their own specialized physical abilities that are not in the TB breed genome. The American breeders of these breeds gave up on the hot-blood crosses to keep these traits. In the long run the Holstein breed might also have to give up the TB outcrosses to keep the Holstein jump.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7624652]
Well Bayhawk, it sounds to me that your excellent breed of excellent jumping horses has come to a problem (I’m using the phrase “your breed” because of your deep knowledge and concern.)

I was looking at some of the pictures of Holstein ancestors to see exactly what the TB blood did to the breed. Comparing the pictures of the ancestors to the pictures of modern day Holsteins, the TB lengthened the croup and changed the forehand. It is hard to judge the withers with extremely upright necks, but it looks like the TB moved the withers back and gave more slope to the shoulder. In other words the TB blood turned a carriage/light draft horse into a riding horse, showing all the conformational marks of a good riding horse, good shoulders, croup, etc… The Holstein breeders who sought to turn the Holstein into a riding horse SUCCEEDED with plentiful infusions of hot blood. They succeeded well enough that even several generations without new hot-blood crosses the Holstein is still a decent riding horse. This is impressive.

American breeders of American breeds have faced this problem for generations. ALL these breeds I am mentioning started off with an upgrade on American colonial mares by breeding to the TB (the gaited breeds through the Morgan and Standardbred.) The Quarter Horse breeders went back to the TB blood to make the bull-dog" QH more suitable for general riding. The gaited horse breeders (American Saddle Bred and Tennessee Walking Horse) did not have this luxury since the TB tends to “kill the gait.” The Standardbred did some re-introduction of hot blood (TB, Barb and Arabian) but that has been over a century ago, and now I doubt any Standardbred breeder would go to hot bloods since the Standardbred is a trotter/pacer and the modern TB blood/hot blood interferes with producing top speed at these gaits. The Morgan went to the American Saddlebred as an outcross to make a better riding horse probably because the Morgan was mainly developed as a harness trotter and a TB outcross might make a better riding horse but it would probably wipe out what makes a Morgan unique, especially its “trappy” trot, compact conformation, high head carriage, poweful neck, etc…

My point is that in using a TB or other outcross hot blood was often needed at first to get the breed going, but the American breeders realized that, if they wanted to keep the traits that the mare lines brought into the breed, among them good speedy trots, high action, easy gaits, and special types of personalities, they had to give up the TB outcross. The QH breeders were lucky, apparantly the TBs they outcrossed to did not totally “kill the cow-sense” and the TB sprinter lines did not ruin the QH type and conformation.

Your breed is going to have to give up something to keep doing the infusions of the TB blood. The particular and extremely effective jumping talent of your mare lines is not crossing well with the modern TB lines. Most TBs can jump, they jump like a TB and often rely on their sheer physical ability to get over the unexpectedly challenging fences. Your breed has specialized lines with specialized physical abilities, just like the American STBs, ASBs, TWHs, and Morgans had their own specialized physical abilities that are not in the TB breed genome. The American breeders of these breeds gave up on the hot-blood crosses to keep these traits. In the long run the Holstein breed might also have to give up the TB outcrosses to keep the Holstein jump.[/QUOTE]

The modern Holsteiner jump comes from Ladykiller and Cor de la Bryere, a son of the TB Rantzau.

It’s not as though all TBs just launch themselves over fences.

You assertion in bold. Where is that coming from?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7624627]
I worked with more Holsteiners then you have, I have been a groom since 2008 at several big showjumping stables. I live now for 2.5 years in Holstein. My boots have been more in the Holsteiner mudd then yours. Working with over 6 years with more horses then I could have ever owned is giving me a better insight in what is going on in several area’s where I have worked.

TB’s don’t kill the jump, many breeders are scared for not getting their foals sold. The breeders quit breeding, we lost 25 % of the born foals in 10 years. Or they quit or they start using stallions that will produce foals that will be sold like Casall.[/QUOTE]

I love when you make comments you know nothing about. You are so easy to dis-credit.

I have been breeding and buying Holsteiners for almost 2 decades. I am the breeder of an approved Stallion , several champion mares , premium mares ,champion foals and horses in sport. What have you bred ? Oh yeah…NOT THE FIRST FOAL !

How many horses do you own or have ever owned ? Oh yeah…ZERO !

You have been a groom now for 6 years and you know it all ! 6 years of brushing horses and you have the audacity to tell someone how much better you are than them. Unbelievable !

I will give you one point though…by virtue of you living there , you do have more mud on your boots than me.

Just remember…you started this.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7624625]
The breeders don’t want F1s except as mares, per Bayhawk, and not even then if he is correct; to encourage the production of F1s the Verband gives them an incentive to try and pays enough to cover the reproductive cost if they happen to get a colt–which may then go on to be a gold medal winning event horse with his 76% Blood.

You know one of the first effects of inbreeding depression is reproductive problems. Has that affected the Holstein breeders yet? Reason I asked is one of Bachus’s posts that mentioned 1000 foal losses.[/QUOTE]

Viney…are you really this un-informed ? the 1,000 foal losses are the result of 1,000 less breedings due to the global economy. Did you really just speculate that it was because of inbreeding reproductive problems ? Really…

You have a serious problem with speculation girl…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7624625]
The breeders don’t want F1s except as mares, per Bayhawk, and not even then if he is correct; to encourage the production of F1s the Verband gives them an incentive to try and pays enough to cover the reproductive cost if they happen to get a colt–which may then go on to be a gold medal winning event horse with his 76% Blood.

You know one of the first effects of inbreeding depression is reproductive problems. Has that affected the Holstein breeders yet? Reason I asked is one of Bachus’s posts that mentioned 1000 foal losses.[/QUOTE]

Viney…are you really this un-informed ? the 1,000 foal losses are the result of 1,000 less breedings due to the global economy. Did you really just speculate that it was because of inbreeding reproductive problems ? Really…

You have a serious problem with speculation girl…

[Bachus]

QUOTE=Bayhawk;7624664]I love when you make comments you know nothing about. You are so easy to dis-credit.

I have been breeding and buying Holsteiners for almost 2 decades. I am the breeder of an approved Stallion , several champion mares , premium mares ,champion foals and horses in sport. What have you bred ? Oh yeah…NOT THE FIRST FOAL !

How many horses do you own or have ever owned ? Oh yeah…ZERO !

You have been a groom now for 6 years and you know it all ! 6 years of brushing horses and you have the audacity to tell someone how much better you are than them. Unbelievable !

I will give you one point though…by virtue of you living there , you do have more mud on your boots than me.

Just remember…you started this.[/QUOTE]

Since 2000 I am involved in Warmblood breeding, I took care for 6 jumping bred mares day and night for seven years and I have chosen in the last 4 years the stallions. Several are jumping at 1.40m and higher. Being 6 years a groom is a small part from my life with horses. And brushing horses is one part that a groom does. A groom does a lot more with a horse then brushing. I never said you don’t have experience but I find it very interesting how you know everything about me.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7624419]
Your question is irrelevant to sporthorse breeding. Most of the best breeders in the world are not riders and the majority of your most knowledgeable folks on this BB re not riders.

A breeder can learn all they need to know about heir horse from the ground and with input from the rider.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your answer… I have no doubts, that you dont have to be a rider to be an exceptional breeder, who you are without doubts, BUT it explains your point of view to me…
I do breed and ride my horses myself, and I really found out over the years, that horses with a lot of TB are so much more fun to ride And obviously some other people even in Holstein are of the same opinion (thanks to Bachus for the link). And I dont believe that they are more difficult to ride. I am a timid rider and a true Amateur and I love that it requires a lot less human power to ride a horse with TB%… and didnt we have this interesting Thread here a while ago about all this things of equipment needed to steer a modern jumper through the parcours??? (it looked a little bit like in the middleages, when they did have these huge horses ) It maybe true that all this is necessary, but I simply dont like it and more sensitive horses dont need it… and I as a rider prefer to have a more sensitive horse…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7624694]
QUOTE=Bayhawk;7624664]I love when you make comments you know nothing about. You are so easy to dis-credit.

I have been breeding and buying Holsteiners for almost 2 decades. I am the breeder of an approved Stallion , several champion mares , premium mares ,champion foals and horses in sport. What have you bred ? Oh yeah…NOT THE FIRST FOAL !

How many horses do you own or have ever owned ? Oh yeah…ZERO !

You have been a groom now for 6 years and you know it all ! 6 years of brushing horses and you have the audacity to tell someone how much better you are than them. Unbelievable !

I will give you one point though…by virtue of you living there , you do have more mud on your boots than me.

Just remember…you started this.[/QUOTE]

Since 2000 I am involved in Warmblood breeding, I took care for 6 jumping bred mares day and night for seven years and I have chosen in the last 4 years the stallions. Several are jumping at 1.40m and higher. Being 6 years a groom is a small part from my life with horses. And brushing horses is one part that a groom does. A groom does a lot more with a horse then brushing. I never said you don’t have experience but I find it very interesting how you know everything about me.[/QUOTE]

Adrianna…I don’t know what your problem is. I was being nice to you…even complimented you on your writing and your ability to report on day to day developments in Holstein by virtue of you living right there.

Why you chose to make it personal , I don’t know.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7624696]
Thank you for your answer… I have no doubts, that you dont have to be a rider to be an exceptional breeder, who you are without doubts, BUT it explains your point of view to me…
I do breed and ride my horses myself, and I really found out over the years, that horses with a lot of TB are so much more fun to ride And obviously some other people even in Holstein are of the same opinion (thanks to Bachus for the link). And I dont believe that they are more difficult to ride. I am a timid rider and a true Amateur and I love that it requires a lot less human power to ride a horse with TB%… and didnt we have this interesting Thread here a while ago about all this things of equipment needed to steer a modern jumper through the parcours??? (it looked a little bit like in the middleages, when they did have these huge horses ) It maybe true that all this is necessary, but I simply dont like it and more sensitive horses dont need it… and I as a rider prefer to have a more sensitive horse…[/QUOTE]

That’s cool Manni but the breeding goal in Holstein is not ammy. They breed horses for the top of the sport. There are lots of good ammy horses that come from this breeding as a result though.

[Manni01]

Bayhawk, I do admit, I never was involved with Holsteiners (by the way, in the title of this thread I dont find the word Holsteiner…) I was born and raised close to Hannover and the closest I ever got to Holstein, was when I lived in Hamburg… But I did meet many Holsteiner along my way and so many of them were by TBs, Marlon xx, Exorbitantxx, and many many more. Some were better horses and were pretty horrible (even although they were Holsteiner by the same the way the same as the ones with Non TB sires and other registries… But 99% of the horses I met were ridden by Ammies, and some of them then even made it to the top when a Professional bought them I dont believe in breeding horses for the top. I think with the right management more horses than you would think can make it to the top (do you think Bonaparte would be as sucessful, if owned by another family?? They are lovely and very dedicated, I talked to them, because we were interested in buying offspring from him). So that is not one of my goals to breed horses for the top… I try to breed healthy horses which are fun to ride for me because I assume if I can manage them a better rider will even do better with them but I have not bred Olympic horses so far and probably never will be… So maybe my opinion is wrong…

[omare]

I do not think it helps to point to eventing as examples of “jump”. I personally do not see too many event horses whose jump I am mesmerized by when they are doing the showjumping part–as they do not use their back (of any breed so not xx fault) and you can just see the rails coming with the trajectory. I do not know whether it is the sport that causes this or the most efficient cross country horse must use itself that way and it continues in the show ring (plus I realize they are tired but it seems more style than tiredness, tiredness just means they cant jump high enough to compensate.)

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7624771]
I do not think it helps to point to eventing as examples of “jump”. I personally do not see too many event horses whose jump I am mesmerized by when they are doing the showjumping part–as they do not use their back (of any breed so not xx fault) and you can just see the rails coming with the trajectory. I do not know whether it is the sport that causes this or the most efficient cross country horse must use itself that way and it continues in the show ring (plus I realize they are tired but it seems more style than tiredness, tiredness just means they cant jump high enough to compensate.)[/QUOTE]

Depends on the horse. Some event horses are really excellent jumpers. Ready Teddy was so amazing because he was very careful but had so much scope he could just jump all the way over everything. He’s just one example. Others include Bounce, Out and About, Nirvana, Chief. A couple not pure bred but with a a lot of blood and great athletes: Eagle Lion and Yarlands Summersong.

[omare]

I do not find too many of the top event horse enjoyable to watch on Sunday–you could take a straight line ruler and mark the take off trajectory on most-I personally find it painful to watch most of them jump on Sunday (and again not breed specific).

[grayarabpony]

If you took show jumpers and ran them crosscountry and then showjumped them the next day it’d likely be painful to watch too. The horses I referred to looked GREAT showjumping.

[Maren]

To answer Elles question on other “improvement” breeds other than TB/Arab for adding lightness etc within 150 years of warmblood breeding - the Trakehner, the Anglo Norman, and more than your occasional Barb and Spanish stallion. They all existed already 150 years ago. I don’t have the time to pull up old images, but you seem to be very good at it. You’ll find them. Check out Trakehner Main Stud stallions from 150 years ago and you’ll see horses that look exactly like their counterparts from today. And yes, the TB, but even more so the Arabian horse was an important factor for the development of the Trakehner, however, it also always clearly carried the traits of its true original source, the Schweike. And THAT was never a heavy old warmblood that looked like anything in your pictures. Not all warmbloods come from tractor-siblings form the 1900s.

Nobody here argues that the TB was not important for the evolution of the modern warmblood horse. Nobody!

Last attempt with GAP: Yes, occasionally you will find a TB in a 1.60m class. In fact I just bred to a son of one (and am, ironically, the ONLY breeder to use that stallion in Europe this year - tells us something about the popularity). My point is that the occasional handful thrown into the mix of dominance of other warmbloods, and the relative lack of Anglo-bred Holsteiners, KWPN, SF etc in today’s show jumping arenas should at least be acceptable as a hint at the fact that TBs are rare at international top level show jumping. Sigh.

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7624656]
The modern Holsteiner jump comes from Ladykiller and Cor de la Bryere, a son of the TB Rantzau.

It’s not as though all TBs just launch themselves over fences.

You assertion in bold. Where is that coming from?[/QUOTE]

It comes from reading old American breeders and books about them. The fact is, with the exception of the QH and the color breeds who race, I am unaware of any truly American breed using the TB outcross lately. If they do the breeders most definitely do not boast about it!

TBs are supreme equine athletes who are the greatest jumpers in the history of jumping in spite of not being purpose bred for jumping (Huaso, the Chilean TB world record high jump holder failed at what he was bred for–racing on the flat.) When TBs are purpose bred for jumping in the future (I hope!!!) those TBs will be wonderful jumpers who jump slightly differently than the Holstein horses that are being talked about. AND the TB will not need infusions of outside blood to become the best jumpers in the world again.

[grayarabpony]

Maren, I hope that is your last attempt. You seem not to really want to look at WHY there are not more TBs at the top, or we do not agree as to why, and instead are brushing off examples.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7624808]
It comes from reading old American breeders and books about them. The fact is, with the exception of the QH and the color breeds who race, I am unaware of any truly American breed using the TB outcross lately. If they do the breeders most definitely do not boast about it!

TBs are supreme equine athletes who are the greatest jumpers in the history of jumping in spite of not being purpose bred for jumping (Huaso, the Chilean TB world record high jump holder failed at what he was bred for–racing on the flat.) When TBs are purpose bred for jumping in the future (I hope!!!) those TBs will be wonderful jumpers who jump slightly differently than the Holstein horses that are being talked about. AND the TB will not need infusions of outside blood to become the best jumpers in the world again.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I do hope TBs are bred for jumping more often than they are now, although I don’t know if that will happen, with racing being their main raisin d’être. Still, jumper breeding will very likely need still more TB blood, so one can hope…

Can you tell me the titles? I just ordered The Making of the Modern Warmblood and am interested in other books as well.

[Maren]

The why is easily answered, no? There is no directed TB sport horse program in the US, or anywhere as a matter of fact.
The arguments on this topic here regarding the WHY are clear to me. Fix it, if you want to. I use Tbs, I have nothing to be ashamed of for saying it. But I don’t breed 1.60m show jumpers. If I were, I would not use TBs as much as I do now. Simply because I can’t afford to gamble away when better, more proven alternatives are available. Exactly what I said to viney about LC’s great pedigree and her point that careful breeding would probably produce good jumpers from him. I agree, it would probably. If you can afford to play that game, please do it and proof your point. I simply can’t.

Honest question re this comment:
AND the TB will not need infusions of outside blood to become the best jumpers in the world again.

Where will you find the jumper blood in the TB population that will help a closed stud book to re"invent" something that has been gone for a long time?
I know what I am speaking about - I am associated with another closed stud book and I can tell you from first hand experience that fixing something that is gone, in a closed book, is incredibly difficult.