Elles, there will always be thoroughbreds in sport at various levels, as long as there are failed race horses. They are abundant, affordable, and versatile. This is really a separate matter entirely from finding quality sport lines to renew/refresh/improve other sporting breeds.
Not in my country. Because racing is almost non excistent :no:.
ladyj79 what kind of riders normally buy and ride those horses?
[QUOTE=HiHopes;7627082]
When the chips are down you need that wirey, gritty horse who will stay on it’s feet, battle through the mud and never say die :).[/QUOTE]
I don’t have anything constructive to add to this conversation, as I am no expert in bloodlines but I LOVE this quote. It so applies to my Trak/tbred , and most tbreds I know.
Elles, every kind of rider rides thoroughbreds, and they do absolutely everything from herding cattle to pony club to speed events to dressage to trail riding. I’ve said several times throughout the thread, in more ways than one, the thoroughbred isn’t some wild beast suitable only for the best of the best (that’s insane), they are the everyman horse. Contrary to the fire-breathing dragon that both proponents and detractors seem to be presenting, there is barely a rider or family I’ve known who hasn’t owned and loved a thoroughbred at some point. It’s ok that they almost all “fail” at the sport they were bred for, because many of them go onto wonderful second careers either for pleasure or show. If you love thoroughbreds, come get some of ours 
I’m sure they’d love the adventure, and they have all the heart and ability that many riders will ever need or want.
On the H/J forum, every few months, there tends to be a thread asking how we get more TBs up at the top levels of the sport (say in the 1.50m+ classes).
Every time, both PNWJumper and I comment and say that we both think that until people start purpose-breeding TBs as sporthorses the way that warmbloods are, you won’t see greater numbers of them. Interestingly, every time we say that, we get vehemently disagreed with and told that the off-track rejects are JUST FINE and if more people would recognize their talent, yadda yadda yadda.
I actually agree with Bayhawk a bit - yes, there are some TBs who can jump around the big tracks, but at least in showjumping, they are the exception, not the rule. I happen to have one of those exceptions, and I love her to death. But I know she’s extraordinary. I’ve kept an eye out for another TB who is even built like her and I’m not seeing it. Some people have told me that having a horse like Nikki makes people want to get a Thoroughbred to do the levels I do.
In my experience, it doesn’t - people just try to buy her. Much easier and less time-consuming for them, and much less of a risk.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that the rejects from one area of sport will be the superstars of another, especially when they’re competing against horses who have been bred for that job. Many of the TBs that I see today don’t have the conformation to do big jumps and stay sound, let alone do the really big ones and be competitive. As PNWJumper said, it’s tough to get that ride to the base (and for whomever commented on that - you absolutely want to leave from the base of a big jump!! Leaving from the base doesn’t mean planting the horse at the bottom, but you sure don’t want a gap).
Why is it that people on the H/J forum get so offended when someone suggests purpose-breeding? Can someone explain that to me?
Let me ask you this way.
http://www.horsetelex.fr/horses/pedigree/1542033
This horse’s ancestor in the third generation have the following blood percentages: 54.10, 50, 100, 60.74, 100, 100, 100 and 62.50. The average is 78.42 % of TB and arabian blood but mostly TB. This horse was born in 2000 and jumped 1.60 m courses. How is it possible that a horse with so much blood was such a good jumper? Is it because of the 21.58 % of other blood?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7626940]
“Most are bred to race” And how many times do I have to say that is the POINT !
You have 1.3 million racers that you are trying to make sporthorses out of. Not gonna work…[/QUOTE]
The point is VERY FEW end up in sport horse careers. Many go straight to the breeding shed for more racehorses, another group goes to people looking for a nice local level show or pleasure horse cheep (these aren’t likely to have their scope tested), some go the slaughter :(, and a few end up with riders and trainers that have the ability and resources to bring the horse along.
Then there is the fact that, even if they show the same ability, many people will pay more for the WB than the TB so there is even less incentive for those looking to for a sale horse to search for the right TB.
I am going to get flamed for this.
Hot blood. Most riding breeds, especially those used for jumping or dressage are infused with hot blood when they started becoming a riding horse breed. They make satisfactory riding horses and can perform well in international competition, especially when the formats, judging and rules are changed to favor them. Several of these breeds REQUIRE fresh infusions of hot blood in order to keep producing horses that can compete internationally. Why? Because carriage, light draft and heavier draft breeds ARE NOT REALLY RIDING HORSES, and NEED infusions of hot blood to continue to be riding horses that can legitimately compete internationally.
Another riding horse trait that the TB/hot blood crosses add is adaptability. TBs/hot bloods can “transcend their conformation.” They tend to be more versatile than non-hot blood horses. Presently I am riding two pure hot-bloods (Arabs) and a F1 hot blood cross (Arab-Welsh) and none of these horses have the “proper” conformation fine riding (croup high, some underslung neck, hind legs that are sort of crooked), none of them would ever win a conformation class for riding suitability. Yet I find that no matter how good and refined my riding gets these horses respond to my riding properly and that it does not matter that their conformation is not the ideal. These horses always figure out a way to do what I ask for, whether they are conformed for it or not. No, they don’t do it as well as a “purpose bred horse”, but they can do it all, their main limitations are MY limitations, under a better rider I have no doubt that these horses would do much better. But I think this is the main problem about the popularity of TBs/hot bloods, you can do just about anything with them IF you are a good rider. If the rider is just sort of average it is better for that rider to compete on the “purpose bred horses” if he/she wants to win in competition.
I see an assumption from the WB people contributing to this conversation that all the TB contributes to a breed is refinement and speed. Well, TBs DO add refinement and speed. But this was not as important to many of the original people who started adding TB to their horse’s genetic lines as the RIDING CONFORMATION that the TB brings, as well as heart and endurance. The riding conformation the TB brings includes the shoulder/wither complex, and back, and the European breeders realized if they had to turn their light draft/heavy draft horses into RIDING HORSES that the quickest, most guaranteed results came from a properly selected TB stallion. Arabs can help riding conformation alot as can the Barb and Turkoman breeds, but with the TB these breeders got all they wanted in one convenient package saving them generations of selective breeding. (Arabs, Barbs and Turkomans are wonderful riding horses, but there are aspects of their conformation that are not as good as the TB to make riding horses that can compete internationally.) Unfortunately, due to equine genetics, every TB/other hot blood cross did not work out, some only worked out through their daughters (broodmare sires) and only a few worked out through the sire lines. TB and hot blood from just any stallion or mare is not a GUARANTEE, it is up to the breeders to severely cull the F1 and F2 generations, especially when they are trying to keep attributes from their native mare lines still operating within their breed, and if these breeders do not keep their eyes on these traits they want to keep from their mare lines they will lose them to the TB/hot blood genes.
Everything I am reading here about the particular WB jumping ability, transmitted through the WB “native” mares blood lines (and the TB cat-like jump lines), is screaming to me that it is a RECESSIVE trait (yes, I am over simplifying, it may be a collection of recessive/partially dominant traits.) If a trait can completely disappear in the F1 generation it is not a dominant trait. Recessive traits are tricky, they can disappear in the phenotype while lurking in the genotype for generations. Unfortunately there are many, many recessives that will keep popping up in non-hot blood breeds are the very traits that breeders are trying to breed out of their mare lines. So they HAVE TO keep on adding TB/hot blood sires to their breed. Doing this they can end up with a horse that may have the native mare dam lines with EVERY sire line in the first six generations a TB/hot blood. And boy, with all that badly needed outcrossing it will be amazing if the dam line recessive traits still manifest in every horse registered in that stud book. And eventually those traits from the native mare lines just may disappear completely. It has happened before. A horse that is above 75% TB/hot blood is simply a high percentage TB/hot blood horse with some interesting peculiar traits that still survive in the dam lines, traits that are NOT GUARANTEED to show up with the F1 generation of the next TB/hot blood outcross.
Saying all this I do think that the European warm blood breeders have proven themselves to be among the greatest horse breeders of the last century. The “purpose bred” horses beat all the non-specialist breeds. But the riders who want a horse that can do whatever the rider wants even if the rider decides to change course repeatedly (I’m talking like from jumping to cow horse work, to light draft to vaulting to dressage to saddle seat to endurance etc.) and want a horse that still will perform at a high level, hot-blood is the key, not “purpose breeding.”
Just enjoy your horses whatever they are.
[QUOTE=Elles;7627339]
Let me ask you this way.
http://www.horsetelex.fr/horses/pedigree/1542033
This horse’s ancestor in the third generation have the following blood percentages: 54.10, 50, 100, 60.74, 100, 100, 100 and 62.50. The average is 78.42 % of TB and arabian blood but mostly TB. This horse was born in 2000 and jumped 1.60 m courses. How is it possible that a horse with so much blood was such a good jumper? Is it because of the 21.58 % of other blood?[/QUOTE]
All of the pedigree is important, including the TB. That’s what most of us have been saying this entire thread. It is how the different bloodlines are combined that is the art of breeding. Most breeders know that their odds of getting an upper level offspring are not very good. We want to increase those odds any way we can, because keeping horses is expensive.
There are a miniscule number of TBs competing at the top in showjumping. (Eventing is a different game and the way this thread keeps jumping back and forth between the two sports has added to the confusion) There are very few F1s at that level. Your links offer great proof of that. But once you get to the F2s, you start seeing success. Look back at your links. Most are F2s.
A lot of us here love TBs, but we can’t afford to breed the numbers of purebreds it would take to concentrate the jump. Europe has already done that with the WB. By carefully adding TB to those concentrated jumping genes, we have much better odds of getting what we want.
Riders have the same financial constraints. It is ridiculously expensive to move a jumper through the levels in the US. They see what’s making it every week in the ring. Can you blame them for not seeking out a TB over a WB when there will be 50 WBs and 1 TB showing in the GP on Sunday?
I love TBs and breed one, but I know that using her generationally is probably my best bet for success. I don’t think that’s insulting her or her breed in any way. I am currently on my F2s and in my tiny experiment of n=2, I am seeing the results I was aiming for. My colts are far too young to offer as proof, so I’ll have to get back to you in a few years. 
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7627295]
On the H/J forum, every few months, there tends to be a thread asking how we get more TBs up at the top levels of the sport (say in the 1.50m+ classes).
Every time, both PNWJumper and I comment and say that we both think that until people start purpose-breeding TBs as sporthorses the way that warmbloods are, you won’t see greater numbers of them. Interestingly, every time we say that, we get vehemently disagreed with and told that the off-track rejects are JUST FINE and if more people would recognize their talent, yadda yadda yadda.
I actually agree with Bayhawk a bit - yes, there are some TBs who can jump around the big tracks, but at least in showjumping, they are the exception, not the rule. I happen to have one of those exceptions, and I love her to death. But I know she’s extraordinary. I’ve kept an eye out for another TB who is even built like her and I’m not seeing it. Some people have told me that having a horse like Nikki makes people want to get a Thoroughbred to do the levels I do.
In my experience, it doesn’t - people just try to buy her. Much easier and less time-consuming for them, and much less of a risk.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that the rejects from one area of sport will be the superstars of another, especially when they’re competing against horses who have been bred for that job. Many of the TBs that I see today don’t have the conformation to do big jumps and stay sound, let alone do the really big ones and be competitive. As PNWJumper said, it’s tough to get that ride to the base (and for whomever commented on that - you absolutely want to leave from the base of a big jump!! Leaving from the base doesn’t mean planting the horse at the bottom, but you sure don’t want a gap).
Why is it that people on the H/J forum get so offended when someone suggests purpose-breeding? Can someone explain that to me?[/QUOTE]
See , here is the problem. They want YOU to take all the physical and financial risks with an OTTB while they set back and wave the flag.
They don’t do it…nor are most generationally breeding the OTTB for a future sporthorse. The hypocrisy is glaring…
I’ve said it over and over…with few exceptions , these are horses that most of the market simply doesn’t want…unless of course YOU have already made that horse to 1.50 meter and they can simply write you a check and not do any of the work. Again , the hypocrisy is glaring.
Unless you are just ultra wealthy…it makes absolutely no sense to breed for the exception.
“I’m just curious though, wouldn’t you think the GP horse would adjust his jumping style to the demands of the course? The question was prompted by my experience hunting an x hurdle horse who loved to fly every jump he could and was very flat in his style, however, when the going got trappy he would crack his back thus shortening his jump.”
I guess, some of the quicker more cat-like SJ, but I do recall how aghast the event people were as an accident waiting to happen watching the round basculely jump of Udonna (?)(the former SJ) who Marilyn Little converted to an eventer.
[QUOTE=Elles;7627383]
http://springblut.de/why-ott-mares.html[/QUOTE]
Looks like at least one European breeder is willing to take a gamble. It will be interesting to hear how it works out for her. From the site, looks like her oldest offspring are 2011 models so we will have to wait a few years.
[QUOTE=Elles;7627383]
http://springblut.de/why-ott-mares.html[/QUOTE]
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
I have some questions about the use of TBs in the development of the Holsteiner. For example, the stallion Landgraf. His sire, Ladykiller, was a failed TB racehorse with so-called good performance bloodlines. Did Ladykiller ever have a career as a jumper? If so, I can’t find any evidence of it. Landgraf’s dam, Warthburg, supposedly had a competition career as a jumper, but I can’t find any evidence as to her success or the level of competition. So this mating produces Landgraf, who had enough jumping ability to go 6’6" repeatedly at an exhibition, AND went on to become the “Stallion of the Century” and the "most successful sire of show jumpers the world has ever known. Doesn’t sound to me like Ladykiller was a jump killer.
This is just one example of the use of the TB in Holsteiner development–you could ask similar questions about Cor de la Bryere, sire by Rantzau (TB) out of Quenotte (i.e., were either of these jumpers?). Again, I don’t see the jump-killer influence here.
If the use of TBs back then obviously didn’t “kill the jump,” why would it do so today, provided the TB possessed appropriate performance bloodlines (not necessarily race bloodlines)? Granted, performance (“sport”) bloodlines in TBs are getting harder and harder to find, but they’re out there, sometimes hiding in failed racehorses.
Finally, in all 40+ pages of this thread, has anyone provided any actually evidence that TBs are “jump-killers?” Not just personal perceptions or feelings, but actually instances where it occurred? I’ve read all of it and can’t recall seeing any real evidence, but I may have missed it.
One good thing about this thread–I’m learning a lot about warmblood breeding.
Thanks!
Take a look at Mast Track on the Adena Farms website. Pedigree is here:
http://www.adenastallions.com/stallions/Mast_Track/
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mast+track
This a current racing TB sire who has no Northern Dancer or Mr. P. He’s even Native Dancer free. His whole pedigree is full of TBs who have produced sport horses in the past. His sire’s tail female even goes back to a Dark Ronald/Son-In-Law daughter. He’s a very nice looking US bred TB who would have great promise with this old style pedigree for use in sport horse breeding.
If European WB breeders really are looking for the next great TB sire, perhaps they would buy him before he gets sent to Korea or Turkey like Running Stag (http://www.pedigreequery.com/running+stag) because he doesn’t produce precocious, sprinting 2yos, something that is almost certain to happen. He might be the next Julio Mariner. Maybe Dr. Greve would be interested. But part of the problem is that that WB breeders seem want the next great TB stallion to be comparatively inexpensive (failed at racing), and stakes winners are not going to come cheap when there are places like Turkey and Korea who will pay for quality.
Running Stag was winning Graded stakes at the age of eight or nine; he just got better as he got older.
Cetawayo-- http://www.pedigreequery.com/cetewayo. Also got better as he got older and was a complete failure as a racing stallion.
These TBs do exist still even in NA. Anyone who suggests otherwise is less than fully informed.
Mast Track = nice!
We have 2 nice fillies by this guy: http://www.pedigreequery.com/turkowar. Not quite as successful moneywise as Mast Track but has some nice classic bloodlines too. There are others out there–just have to be persistent and patient enough to find them.
Viney, your very informative posts have taught me alot about what to look for in TB sport horse bloodlines. Thanks!
http://www.thetba.co.uk/uploads/images/Gallery/tba-galleries/Stallion-Parade-2012/C16B6977-Alkaased-2-.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10555110
In Ladykiller’s time his kind of pedigree was very common. In the UK such pedigrees could be found all over the place.
I have a TB stallion book from 1989 with in it sires like Slip Anchor, Royal Vulcan, Uncle Pokey, Top Ville, Taufan, Sunley Builds, Strong Gale, Sulaafah, Siberian Express, Shirley Heights, Saronicos, Ring Bidder, Rainbow Quest, Ore, Nashamaa, Mtoto, Montekin, Lightning Dealer, Kaldoun, Homeboy, Hotfoot, General Holme,Blakeney, Jester, etc. etc. I picked these randomly without looking at their pedigrees. Just to give an idea of “European old time pedigrees”.
There is a link that I posted above that shows Lauries Crusador to be a jump killer in Hanover with a breeding value for jumping of 72. Likoto xx (another TB used in Hanover) also has a breeding value for jumping of 72. I suggest that it’s very difficult to prove the negative using actual data in this case. To do so would require sufficient offspring to be performance tested (10+) to generate the requisite breeding values. The only reason data is available for these two is because they provide positive benefits for dressage breeders. So if a TB stallion doesn’t produce at least some positive results early on either at foal shows or young horse competitions, he isn’t used by the mare owners and if he isn’t used, he isn’t able to produce enough offspring to be evaluated. What is clear from history is that breeders either accepted a given TB stallion (either through the stallion himself of through his sons) or they did not.
Further, identifying single or a few instances of successful jumping offspring as evidence of a TB (or any stallion) not being a jump killer is also false logic. A given stallion may not have been a jump killer in that particular instance (or maybe more appropriately, the mare’s abilities carried the day) but on average or overall he his. For example, Lauries Crusader and Weltmeyer (not a TB but a useful example for discussion) both have (or have had) mares in the Hanoverian jumper breeding program. Given their acceptance into the program, these mares must have been able to jump well. Looking at these few mares (as people are wont to do) and concluding that these stallions are jumper producers is simply not appropriate. The breeding values of these two stallions clearly and objectively demonstrate that on the whole, both these stallions produce offspring with jumping ability well below average, and few, if any, jumper breeders would look seriously to these stallions to produce jumpers.
Many (most?) of the WB registries (including those in the U.S.) are looking for TB stallions to produce both dressage horses and jumping horses. Enough people are looking to dismiss the notion that such stallions are out there in plenty but they just haven’t been discovered.
