[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7628283]
The trouble with this logic is that your one example extends to only a handful of very specific TB stallions that positively contributed to the development of modern WB jumper breeding – the more general “TB blood” did not. As has been stated before, these TB stallions are the exceptions - not the rule. For every one of these specific stallions, there are dozens of TB stallions (both historically and currently) that failed to make positive contributions. Only once these specific TB stallions “proved” themselves through their offspring (and most times, very late in their lives) did they gain acceptance from mare owners. The logic of looking at those few that had a positive influence to conclude generally that “TB blood” doesn’t kill jump is simply false logic. The appropriate conclusion is that these select few TB stallions may not have killed the jump (and I’ll go so far to say actually positively contributed to the jump). However, lost to history and obscurity are the many, many other TB stallions that were not successful because they did kill the jump.
I hear very little regarding any contemporary TB jumping stallions aside from Coconut Grove (with whom I have first hand experience) and Heraldik and only Heraldik appears in the breeding value data to which I have access (which means that fewer than 10 offspring from any one of the others have been inspected/performance tested).
With regard to Heraldik and his breeding value of 114 for jumping (as published by the Hanoverians in 2014), he only provided a modest improvement to the jump of his offspring. If he were not a TB, he would likely not have been accepted into the Hanoverian jumper breeding program with this score. In comparison, the top 5 jumping stallions licensed for Hanover (and with sufficient offspring to compute breeding values) are:
Contendro - 158 (160 would be 3 standard deviations from the mean - something like the 99.87th percentile)
Calido - 156
Stolzenburg - 156
Stakkato - 155
Perigueux - 152
In simple terms based on the statistics of breeding values, Heraldik gets a C+/B- for his ability to produce jump in relation to the grade of A+ of the top five. I suggest that this accompanied by the fact that he failed to reliably improve type is why he did not gain much acceptance by the jumper breeders in Hanover. I can’t speak to his progeny in other studbooks.
There is a link that I posted above that shows Lauries Crusador to be a jump killer in Hanover with a breeding value for jumping of 72. Likoto xx (another TB used in Hanover) also has a breeding value for jumping of 72. I suggest that it’s very difficult to prove the negative using actual data in this case. To do so would require sufficient offspring to be performance tested (10+) to generate the requisite breeding values. The only reason data is available for these two is because they provide positive benefits for dressage breeders. So if a TB stallion doesn’t produce at least some positive results early on either at foal shows or young horse competitions, he isn’t used by the mare owners and if he isn’t used, he isn’t able to produce enough offspring to be evaluated. What is clear from history is that breeders either accepted a given TB stallion (either through the stallion himself of through his sons) or they did not.
Further, identifying single or a few instances of successful jumping offspring as evidence of a TB (or any stallion) not being a jump killer is also false logic. A given stallion may not have been a jump killer in that particular instance (or maybe more appropriately, the mare’s abilities carried the day) but on average or overall he his. For example, Lauries Crusader and Weltmeyer (not a TB but a useful example for discussion) both have (or have had) mares in the Hanoverian jumper breeding program. Given their acceptance into the program, these mares must have been able to jump well. Looking at these few mares (as people are wont to do) and concluding that these stallions are jumper producers is simply not appropriate. The breeding values of these two stallions clearly and objectively demonstrate that on the whole, both these stallions produce offspring with jumping ability well below average, and few, if any, jumper breeders would look seriously to these stallions to produce jumpers.
Many (most?) of the WB registries (including those in the U.S.) are looking for TB stallions to produce both dressage horses and jumping horses. Enough people are looking to dismiss the notion that such stallions are out there in plenty - they just haven’t been discovered.[/QUOTE]
“The logic of looking at those few that had a positive influence to conclude generally that “TB blood” doesn’t kill jump is simply false logic.”
Perfect Bent Hickory !
And this is the problem with the TB Jihadists…they look at a pedigree and say this horse is good for sport and that horse is good for sport but they have few examples as proof to back this claim in the last 30 years.
They think that somehow these “sport producing horses” way back in the TB pedigree are just going to magically jump to the front of the pedigree and start making sporthorses today.
If I hear one more time…“Calling Viney Ridge , calling Viney Ridge…please tell me about this TB pedigree for sport” I think I will just puke.
She is able to tell you everything about the past and nothing about present and certainly not any set up for the future.
It’s the same thing as me selling one of my Holsteiner mares to a Shetland Pony Breeder. They breed my Holsteiner mare to Shetland Ponies for 6 generations and then come out and say …it ought to jump because Landgraf and Corde la bryere are back there in the pedigree and they produced awesome jumping horses !
Horses for today’s sport never magically appear from the past… You need a family of horses that produce this generation after generation after generation to even have a shot at breeding a good horse.
:no: