TB kills the jump?

Bent_Hickory · August 25, 2020, 6:34pm

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7628730]
Re-phrasing what you said about jump-killing TBs, however, I contend that: Identifying single or a few instances of unsuccessful jumping offspring as evidence of a TB (or any stallion) being a jump killer is also false logic. A given stallion may have been a jump killer in that particular instance but on average or overall he isn’t. [/QUOTE]

Maybe so, but no one is applying that false logic here. The objective data speaks for itself.

These comments weren’t directed toward you; they were directed toward what others have said or implied.

True and this is part of Bayhawk’s (and others) mantra - you reduce your chances of producing a dud when you use consolidated sport horse genetics and not consolidated race genetics.

Bayhawk · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7628807]
What’s interesting to me is that Sir Shostakovich quit breeding in Holstein about 15 years ago. That’s just about one generation ago as far as performance horses are concerned. What’s changed so much in one generation?

He’s Irish bred, and was the sire of 15 FEI level show jumpers. But he killed the jump and was unnecessary anyway, since Holstein doesn’t need TBs anymore. Dr, Nissen used him himself. Although it does look as if Holstein were trying to purge his genes from their book because they have sold the vast majority of his F1s and F2s out of Germany.[/QUOTE]

I have heard for years that the breeders didn’t even want Sir Shostakovich xx in their pedigrees anymore because he was hot and nasty.

However…he made a few really good ones as in Inken Johannsen’s States Premium mare Lamina by Sir Shost xx / Corrado I. This mare competed international also in eventing.

She is also the grandmother of the reserve champion stallion in Nuemunster last year by Connor / Cristo / Sir Shostakovich xx / Corrado I . A good one is a good one…i.e. exception. As you stated ,they have purged because they don’t breed for exceptions only.

wentworth · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

“Not one relevant TB Stallion in the world right now…no TB female families ranked anywhere for producing sporthorses. Less than 1% of all WB mares are getting covered by TB Stallions and with the exception of eventing , next to no TB’s in sport. In my opinion…there are no TB pedigrees for sport…if there were , we would be seeing some success somewhere.”

Just curious, do you consider show hunters to be sport horses? If so, I would have to disagree with your bold statement that there are “no TB pedigrees for sport.” For example, Rox Dene was out of a full TB dam and had one of the most spectacular hunter jumps ever. I realize this thread started in regards to internation level show jumpers, but it has drifted to sport in general, and in the US it seems hunters would be considered sport horses.

Jackie_Cochran · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

If the WB breeders KNOW without a doubt that the TB “kills the jump” in their mare lines, WHY ARE YOU STILL BREEDING TO TBs? You say that there is no line of TB that will work well with your mare lines, well, just stop using TB blood. It is just that simple. That way you will remove all chance that your mare lines’ jumping ability will be bred out by the TB.

Arab breeders throughout history have heard “your horses are not tall enough.” The obvious solution to that problem back then in the USA was to breed to TBs or American Saddle Breds. However, besides the problem of ruining the purity of blood, there was the problem that introducing TB or ASB blood would wipe out just about everything that makes the Arab unique, ending up with a taller horse that essentially was an inferior TB or ASB instead of the dreamed for taller “classic Arab.” Luckily the breeders kept the Arab breed pure.

The WBs sound like they are in a similar situation about the jumping ability. If a TB outcross harms the traits that you most value in your mare line then do not do the outcross. Close your stud books and make your horses a real breed.

ladyj79 · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

I wish almost daily that people would read threads before commenting.

Bent_Hickory · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7629276]
If the WB breeders KNOW without a doubt that the TB “kills the jump” in their mare lines, WHY ARE YOU STILL BREEDING TO TBs? [/QUOTE]

Because some of us will risk sacrificing the jump in the F1 generation if we can capture other positive TB qualities in our marelines for the next generations.

stoicfish · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

The WBs sound like they are in a similar situation about the jumping ability. If a TB outcross harms the traits that you most value in your mare line then do not do the outcross. Close your stud books and make your horses a real breed.

Closing it off to Tb’s would not make it a “breed”. There is way more history and detail then that.
Tb’s can add some other positive traits. Right now you see it more in the dressage lines. And it is always possible that the right Tb will come along that is exceptional enough in the jump and able to pass it on. Again, they can add qualities (that they are bred for) that are valuable.
In Europe they do not add Tb’s often but in NA, it was important to be able to use Tb mares to stimulate Wb breeding here. More recently they have changed the standards for accepting mares to make it harder to get in as they have more breeding stock available.
It is not with emotion or prejudice that breeders of top jumpers are not going to Tb’s, it is that they have other options that are better and more consistent for producing UL jumpers. There is no reason to “shut them out”.

To add: While Tb’s are not seen at the top of jumping, they are certainly in the pedigree’s of top eventing horses and some dressage horses. The qualities that the better Tb’s have, are a really positive contribution.
An example, I have a horse who is a 1/4 Tb upfront. Everyone in this family line (stallions) jumped to at least 1.4m and produced horse that could also, except the race horse. The greatest unknown in his pedigree is the mare that came off the track. She has some of the big Tb names that you like to see for jump, but there is also a ton of horses that may or may not carry the right traits because they were all bred for racing. He was bred to be an eventer, so the traits that the Tb brought were, I believe an asset to him as a amateur mount and an all around horse, which much of the market is. He would be a freak if he was able to do 1.5m and up. The right Tb’s have a lot to offer those that are not jumping GP but doing other things.

Bayhawk · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

[QUOTE=wentworth;7629250]
“Not one relevant TB Stallion in the world right now…no TB female families ranked anywhere for producing sporthorses. Less than 1% of all WB mares are getting covered by TB Stallions and with the exception of eventing , next to no TB’s in sport. In my opinion…there are no TB pedigrees for sport…if there were , we would be seeing some success somewhere.”

Just curious, do you consider show hunters to be sport horses? If so, I would have to disagree with your bold statement that there are “no TB pedigrees for sport.” For example, Rox Dene was out of a full TB dam and had one of the most spectacular hunter jumps ever. I realize this thread started in regards to internation level show jumpers, but it has drifted to sport in general, and in the US it seems hunters would be considered sport horses.[/QUOTE]

No…hunters are not considered a sporthorse. They are not recognized as being a part of the Olympic disciplines.

Bayhawk · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7629292]
I wish almost daily that people would read threads before commenting.[/QUOTE]

exactly !

Jackie_Cochran · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

Historically, in the USA, many, many of the successful high jumpers were horses that just appeared out of “nowhere” of unknown breeding that had “the jump.” These horses could often beat TBs handily in open jumping classes. They weren’t especially beautiful, they probably would have been disasters in dressage, but they had “the jump” that the TBs didn’t. All these American bred-out-of-nowhere horses had TBs waaaay back in their pedigrees, some may have had TB sires (US Cavalry Remount Program), but their dams were probably a melange of Morgan, ASB, TWH, TB, Standardbred or “light draft” blood, often on dam lines going back either to the early Canadian Horse or Spanish/Mustang blood.

So yes, I can see that TB blood can “kill the jump” of the warmblood mares. As I said several pages back I suspect that the shoulder assembly is part of the Holsteiner mares superiority in this, a shoulder assembly the TB does not have, because IF the TB ever had it the TB speed was affected and it was bred out.

The problem is that if you keep on HAVING to cross to the TB to keep the “riding qualities” in your horses, you will eventually end up with horses that are all over 75% TB, and with every generation that you outcross to the TB you will risk losing “the jump”. Your pool of mares with “the jump” will dwindle. No doubt these hypothetical horses will still be superior riding horses, wonderful for dressage, but the you will see fewer and fewer horses with “the jump.” You all are completely correct to be worrying about this.

I’ve seen the equivalent loss of characteristics in the crossing of different Arab lines within the Arab stud books.

Treasure your mare lines. Preserve your mare lines. Breed your mares with an eye toward keeping the very thing that makes your mare lines superior. If your mare line is imperfect in other aspects either learn to live with it or look for other outcrosses. You WB people have convinced me, the TB kills your mare lines’ jump.

Just consider that the TB riding qualities may be a big part of why you “loose the jump” on F1 but are able to keep the dressage.

Jackie_Cochran · August 25, 2020, 6:35pm

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7629292]
I wish almost daily that people would read threads before commenting.[/QUOTE]

Ladyj79 I HAVE read the whole discussion, in fact I have read the whole thing several times. My first contribution is on page 2.

Bayhawk · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7629436]
Historically, in the USA, many, many of the successful high jumpers were horses that just appeared out of “nowhere” of unknown breeding that had “the jump.” These horses could often beat TBs handily in open jumping classes. They weren’t especially beautiful, they probably would have been disasters in dressage, but they had “the jump” that the TBs didn’t. All these American bred-out-of-nowhere horses had TBs waaaay back in their pedigrees, some may have had TB sires (US Cavalry Remount Program), but their dams were probably a melange of Morgan, ASB, TWH, TB, Standardbred or “light draft” blood, often on dam lines going back either to the early Canadian Horse or Spanish/Mustang blood.

So yes, I can see that TB blood can “kill the jump” of the warmblood mares. As I said several pages back I suspect that the shoulder assembly is part of the Holsteiner mares superiority in this, a shoulder assembly the TB does not have, because IF the TB ever had it the TB speed was affected and it was bred out.

The problem is that if you keep on HAVING to cross to the TB to keep the “riding qualities” in your horses, you will eventually end up with horses that are all over 75% TB, and with every generation that you outcross to the TB you will risk losing “the jump”. Your pool of mares with “the jump” will dwindle. No doubt these hypothetical horses will still be superior riding horses, wonderful for dressage, but the you will see fewer and fewer horses with “the jump.” You all are completely correct to be worrying about this.

I’ve seen the equivalent loss of characteristics in the crossing of different Arab lines within the Arab stud books.

Treasure your mare lines. Preserve your mare lines. Breed your mares with an eye toward keeping the very thing that makes your mare lines superior. If your mare line is imperfect in other aspects either learn to live with it or look for other outcrosses. You WB people have convinced me, the TB kills your mare lines’ jump.

Just consider that the TB riding qualities may be a big part of why you “loose the jump” on F1 but are able to keep the dressage.[/QUOTE]

The general rule of thumb is that we want a TB or a Stallion with a large percentage of blood in the motherline every 3-4 generations.

Elles · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

RatWrangler · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7629400]
No…hunters are not considered a sporthorse. They are not recognized as being a part of the Olympic disciplines.[/QUOTE]
OK, I’ve been keeping up with this thread and learning some stuff. I’m not a breeder and never will be, so I don’t have a dog in this fight. But I think that this quote right here is the root of the disagreements.
From the comments on here, Bayhawk seems to breeding for the 1% of the horse world–the people with the unlimited money and backing who can compete internationally. That’s his choice and that’s fine. But saying that hunters aren’t sport horses? Way to s*it all over the rest of our riders who can only do the lowly A circuit. And in this part of the world, I’ll bet a good 75% of the warmblood breeders sell their horses as show hunters.
And yes, there are plenty of TBs around here. Just because people aren’t specifically breeding them doesn’t mean that they aren’t getting sold.
I personally prefer TBs for school horses. They are much more forgiving and easier to ‘read’. Spooking for instance–a TB will tell you right away what they are looking at and you learn how to work them through it. WBs are more likely to trot along never moving an ear, next thing you know, you’re on the ground. We have 7 OTTBs in our school string and our little stable produces some very competent and winning riders.
So no, TBs are not (right now) consistent enough to be bred for the Olympics. (Which maybe 20 so? riders actually get to go to.) But out here in the real world, with the rest of us everday riders who are paying the great bulk of the training and boarding fees, they can be very valuable indeed.

Bayhawk · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

[QUOTE=RatWrangler;7629659]
OK, I’ve been keeping up with this thread and learning some stuff. I’m not a breeder and never will be, so I don’t have a dog in this fight. But I think that this quote right here is the root of the disagreements.
From the comments on here, Bayhawk seems to breeding for the 1% of the horse world–the people with the unlimited money and backing who can compete internationally. That’s his choice and that’s fine. But saying that hunters aren’t sport horses? Way to s*it all over the rest of our riders who can only do the lowly A circuit. And in this part of the world, I’ll bet a good 75% of the warmblood breeders sell their horses as show hunters.
And yes, there are plenty of TBs around here. Just because people aren’t specifically breeding them doesn’t mean that they aren’t getting sold.
I personally prefer TBs for school horses. They are much more forgiving and easier to ‘read’. Spooking for instance–a TB will tell you right away what they are looking at and you learn how to work them through it. WBs are more likely to trot along never moving an ear, next thing you know, you’re on the ground. We have 7 OTTBs in our school string and our little stable produces some very competent and winning riders.
So no, TBs are not (right now) consistent enough to be bred for the Olympics. (Which maybe 20 so? riders actually get to go to.) But out here in the real world, with the rest of us everday riders who are paying the great bulk of the training and boarding fees, they can be very valuable indeed.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to state the truth to you.

Hunters are only a domestic discipline and are recognized no where else in the world.

Bachus · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

Some homework for the people who believe that the Holsteiner breed is done with TB; http://holsteiner-verband.de/upload/pdf/2014/VSSKatalog2014.pdf also in the jumpingclasses was a very interesting Ibisco xx bred by the president of the German Federation; Breido Graf zu Rantzau. I do not say we should all ride tb’s or halfbloods but neither should we ignore them, we need them to continue our breed and I live in the centre of the Holsteiner breed and have just attended two very interesting days which should have been interesting for all of you to find out what is going on here!!

Mozart · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

AAAARRGGGH The issue is JUMP. Not pretty hunter jumping, not steeplechasing, not eventing jumping, but JUMP . Sheer SCOPE. Why am I still reading this thread? It is so circular I am getting dizzy.

Running_Fox_Farm · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

TB’s kill the jump???

No.

RatWrangler · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7629696]
Sorry to state the truth to you.

Hunters are only a domestic discipline and are recognized no where else in the world.[/QUOTE]

That still doesn’t mean they aren’t the bulk of show horses in this country, or that none of the people who compete them aren’t good riders. You’re coming across pretty elitist here.

PNWjumper · August 25, 2020, 6:36pm

[QUOTE=Elles;7626404]
We do not know the pedigree or the age of the horse. Would you please be so kind to tell us PWN Jumper? Thank you![/QUOTE]

Of course -

http://www.pedigreequery.com/billy+l

He’s a 2001 gelding by Dance At Dinner and out of Honey Sugar. I picked him up at the track as a 5yo the day after his last race (he started as a 4yo, raced in 10 races, and never performed well). The person who suggested I go look at him implied that Knight’s Choice is where his jump came from.

Conformation shot. He is, as others have alluded to being more the norm nowadays than in the past, built fairly downhill and his neck ties in low (if you don’t see it in the pic, look at how level he looks and then look at the floor line). I have better pics, but for some reason Photobucket seems to be pretending they don’t exist.

Andy.smagma - of course the ideal spot for a big wide oxer is from a bit further away than the ideal spot for a vertical. But where most horses at that level can happily jump from the base (note - I do not mean a “chip” or a short stride, but instead from a nice, not gappy spot), my guy CAN NOT (yet ;)). This is the result of what most people would consider a “good” spot (IIRC, we galloped up to the base - he didn’t have to compress his stride to make a step fit in, but there was also no gap to jump from). In other words, most UL jumpers can deal with a range of spots to a big oxer (e.g. short, slightly short, spot on, slightly long, long). My guy can only consistently handle the slightly long or long spot. And as I mentioned earlier, that doesn’t work well on a 2m spread set in the middle of a combination where you a) may not have the option to manufacture a slightly long spot or b) might pay for carrying too much momentum into a double element. Also, it’s probably worth mentioning that I am an amateur rider who shows once a month. I have a pretty accurate eye, but my horse would be the first to tell you that it is not perfect. I just cannot be relied upon to place him 100% perfectly to every single fence on course. But to that end, no rider wants to have to hit every single fence from a single spot.

And I just have to say again, NO ONE here is saying that individual TBs can’t jump. What they’re saying is that the jump is not a consistent nor predictable component to current TB bloodlines.

I don’t think a single person on this thread would be sad to see someone direct a TB breeding effort towards UL jumping. But I will still say that if you ask me if I want to spend $200K-$400K (or more!) getting a TB from racing lines to the 1.60m level or spend those same dollars getting a Holsteiner with 1.60m horses on both sides of the pedigree to that level, it’s not a tough choice for someone like me who doesn’t have expendable income to risk. And on that note, until someone (the market, buyers, breed associations, or other???) comes up with a way to monetarily reward a breeder for producing TB sporthorses, I doubt that many breeders will take the risk either. As I stated earlier, I think the bulk of the effort will remain in the hands of those breeding for horses for themselves.

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